Wasps going into admin & the impact on CCFC (34 Viewers)

[tisza]

More legal action on the way? Although I don't really see how the bondholders can get themselves organised as it seems the trustee refuses to put them in contact with each other.

If I was a bondholder I'd certainly be looking at claims that Ashley had a head start and wonder how hard the administrator had worked to get the best return.

Shouldn't think there's much they can do. Someone is financing ACL atm otherwise it would have been a liquidation. Administrator would argue something better than nothing for bondholders.
I'd have more concern about how Trustee has looked after their interests.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Interesting. Wonder if they will ever find out how much they are losing. View attachment 27165

I think someone mentioned that they need £22m to recover their initial investment when you factor in the interest payments they’ve already been paid. If they’re set to get anywhere near £22m you would think they’d breathe a sigh of relief given how bad it could be. It’s the other people I feel for that are unlikely to get anything, contractors, sole traders and suppliers etc. HMRC could do with their money also given the state of the countries finances. The bond holders will be the winners here, relatively speaking.

 

[MalcSB]

More legal action on the way? Although I don't really see how the bondholders can get themselves organised as it seems the trustee refuses to put them in contact with each other.

If I was a bondholder I'd certainly be looking at claims that Ashley had a head start and wonder how hard the administrator had worked to get the best return.

Some of the bond holders have subscribed to a system / agreed to share their details with others via the Trustee some weeks ago.

 

[Nick]

Shouldn't think there's much they can do. Someone is financing ACL atm otherwise it would have been a liquidation. Administrator would argue something better than nothing for bondholders.
I'd have more concern about how Trustee has looked after their interests.

Although doesn't that defeat the object of security?

In real terms, how can the lease actually be sold if there's stuff secured on it?

 

[skybluetony176]

Do the bond holders only have a charge over ACL or is it over the whole of Wasps holdings?

 

[Nick]

Just reading more comments

So effectively ACL have said to the Trustee, "We are being taken over, you are getting fuck all" and the Trustee has said "yeah sound mate" without checking with the people who actually bought the bonds?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Just reading more comments

So effectively ACL have said to the Trustee, "We are being taken over, you are getting fuck all" and the Trustee has said "yeah sound mate" without checking with the people who actually bought the bonds?

Remember negative often makes most noise. If I owned any bonds and were offered something around now, rather than potentially nothing down the line I'd be pee'd off at the fact I'd lost something, but accept it as better than the alternative and would just suck it up.

Some will differ of course - mainly people with small holdings and more, relatively, to lose, but I suspect the majority of bond holders would reluctantly agree to a takeover and just let it run its course, therefore meaning not enough bondholders get together to force any issue... as we've seen prior to this, a long time prior to this in fact.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just reading more comments

So effectively ACL have said to the Trustee, "We are being taken over, you are getting fuck all" and the Trustee has said "yeah sound mate" without checking with the people who actually bought the bonds?

It’s two people. They could just be shit stirring because they think they’re entitled to 100% back. Which isn’t the reality. It was always a gamble and they lost.

 

[Gynnsthetonic]

Just reading more comments

So effectively ACL have said to the Trustee, "We are being taken over, you are getting fuck all" and the Trustee has said "yeah sound mate" without checking with the people who actually bought the bonds?

Daylight robbery. Where are Derek Richardson and Nick Eastwood in all this, they haven't even made a statement since admin, disgusting way to treat their fans and bondholders. I presume an NDA in place, but not even an acknowledgement of shit sorry guys.

 

[Flying Fokker]

I don’t see your point.

That GR had guarantees legally for the rent is relevant.

That the council did what they did is why we are here.

That SISU did is also why we are here. Not forgetting Alan Higgs Charity’s role in all this as well. All players in a sad time for CCFC fans. The only show in town? Pah. Big errors made by Fisher et Al, and CCC got us to that point.

 

[Nick]

Remember negative often makes most noise. If I owned any bonds and were offered something around now, rather than potentially nothing down the line I'd be pee'd off at the fact I'd lost something, but accept it as better than the alternative and would just suck it up.

Some will differ of course - mainly people with small holdings and more, relatively, to lose, but I suspect the majority of bond holders would reluctantly agree to a takeover and just let it run its course, therefore meaning not enough bondholders get together to force any issue... as we've seen prior to this, a long time prior to this in fact.

Which I guess all depends on what they are actually being offered (if they are being offered anything).

 

[MalcSB]

I’m guessing (just guessing) that the Bondholders have a fixed floating charge over all wasp assets.

I’m guessing that this above refers to Wasp rugby stuff (trademark, training equip) not ACL lease, which of course won’t cover £35m (whereas Lease might)

I’m guessing Trustees are retaining charge over lease since that might look like it will and Trustees don’t need to stand in way of other issues.

I doubt the Trustees will retain the charge. It is a legal mortgage for £35m with additional guarantors in place. The lease is actually only worth what someone will pay for it and it sounds as if ACL is in negative equity like can happen with a house. The Trustees will take what is available, the charge will be lifted and the guarantors chased for the deficit. Again like happens with a house on mortgage foreclosure. Funds raised from the sale of Wasps Holdings and potentially the P share (£9m plus on its own) plus any other assets of ACLs will go towards the bond holders and any other priority creditors.

The bondholders will take a hit and are likely expecting to do so (a raft of risks were described in the prospectus) but it sounds as if there are quite a number who bought bonds on the market at significantly less than original price (up to 50% in some cases). To me it sounds as if many will be happy at not suffering a total loss. The “MA” offer plus the guarantors contribution should be a pretty reasonable way toward full repayment.

 

[Flying Fokker]

That link is very telling, Shapiro(Gary Hopkins) wanted just what CCC gave Wasps years later, only Wasps never did all the things they promised. MA should ask for the long lease and land, the scrap yard and all round there and we could have a great area by the ground.

I just remembered, didn’t a Chinese group want it to develop an Ice dome and stuff as well?

Or was it Leicester City owners?

 

[Nick]

That SISU did is also why we are here. Not forgetting Alan Higgs Charity’s role in all this as well. All players in a sad time for CCFC fans. The only show in town? Pah. Big errors made by Fisher et Al, and CCC got us to that point.

Yeah, The PWKH prick and everybody involved in Alan Higgs (and their family of lawyers they said I wouldn't like to see angry) all seem to have got away with it too.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Yeah, The PWKH prick and everybody involved in Alan Higgs (and their family of lawyers they said I wouldn't like to see angry) all seem to have got away with it too.

Dunno, there was the cost of some balloons

 

[Otis]

I've heard from an ITK that Dawkins is a late contestant in 'I'm a Celebrity',
Could be what the deleted tweet is referring to. Don't shoot the messenger.

Wasn't it for the sister show "I'm not a Celebrity, but I would love to be in there?"

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not sure that’s right.

ACL owns the lease but the BH have a charge. The lease sale will go first to BH then anything over that to ACL in admin.

They will also get whatever proceeds come from the takeover of the rugby club.

 

[The Philosopher]

They will also get whatever proceeds come from the takeover of the rugby club.

That’s how I see it.

 

[Nick]

In connection with the Administration Application, the Letter formally notifies the Trustee that an ancillary application(s) to the Court will be made to enable the Companies, acting by their joint administrators, to dispose of the Companies’ respective business and assets, including the Arena, as if they were not subject to security (subject to the proceeds after applicable costs being applied towards repayment of the liabilities which are secured on those assets (according to the applicable priority ranking))

Surely a court wouldn't just write the security off?

What about compass, didn't they have a charge?

 

[robbiethemole]

Shapiro wasn't Gary Hopkins, Shapiro was a different group.

But yes, also interesting that they wanted everything SISU now want. Certainly shows how the initial plan was high risk, high return basically on the footballing side.

My memory is getting worse hahaha

 

[Philosoraptor]

There is something I don't understand in all this. How come Higgs and the Charity got involved?

What happened to the ownership and who was lent the club money etc

 

[Liquid Gold]

They will also get whatever proceeds come from the takeover of the rugby club.

And the £9m sale of the P share back to th RFU

 

[Philosoraptor]

Was there some sort of power grab?
An attempt to oust someone that went terribly wrong?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

There is something I don't understand in all this. How come Higgs and the Charity got involved?

What happened to the ownership and who was lent the club money etc

Derek Higgs was a director of CCFC at the time, and good mates with Robinson. When the club couldn't pay a debt to the Higgs charity back, they instead took on the share of the Arena (my memory is hazy, it may have been we needed some money so sold the share to Higgs, instead of as written).

Better, it'd be argued, to let the share go to a benevolant charity with direct friendships with the main shareholder, than a random person or company.

 

[shmmeee]

Derek Higgs was a director of CCFC at the time, and good mates with Robinson. When the club couldn't pay a debt to the Higgs charity back, they instead took on the share of the Arena (my memory is hazy, it may have been we needed some money so sold the share to Higgs, instead of as written).

Better, it'd be argued, to let the share go to a benevolant charity with direct friendships with the main shareholder, than a random person or company.

I thought we pawned our share to the Higgs for cash, as opposed to we owned them money?

 

[Philosoraptor]

Derek Higgs was a director of CCFC at the time, and good mates with Robinson. When the club couldn't pay a debt to the Higgs charity back, they instead took on the share of the Arena (my memory is hazy, it may have been we needed some money so sold the share to Higgs, instead of as written).

Better, it'd be argued, to let the share go to a benevolant charity with direct friendships with the main shareholder, than a random person or company.

My memory of this is hazy as well.

Was there a reason why the club suddenly went into debt?

Or more debt than usual.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I thought we pawned our share to the Higgs for cash, as opposed to we owned them money?

Well I did add that as an option. I *think* it was a bit of both, but don't like to just state something as FACT and misdirect

 

[shmmeee]

My memory of this is hazy as well.

Was there a reason why the club suddenly went into debt?

Or more debt than usual.

Depends who you listen to. Richardson says it was mismanagement by McGinnity IIRC. I still think the collapse of ITV Digital screwed us in particular. In reality it was probably about five things at once.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

We have a precedent Southampton turned down Sisu and didn’t die.

Just to be clear (again)...Southampton didn't turn Sisu down. A deal of sorts was agreed but then Rupert Lowe wanted more money and it ended. It's not a case of SFC realising Sisu were shysters...it was a case of SFC wanting too much money, which scuppered the deal.

 

[shmmeee]

Just to be clear (again)...Southampton didn't turn Sisu down. A deal of sorts was agreed but then Rupert Lowe wanted more money and it ended. It's not a case of SFC realising Sisu were shysters...it was a case of SFC wanting too much money, which scuppered the deal.

Duly noted. Point still stands, there were other people it could have been.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Just to be clear (again)...Southampton didn't turn Sisu down. A deal of sorts was agreed but then Rupert Lowe wanted more money and it ended. It's not a case of SFC realising Sisu were shysters...it was a case of SFC wanting too much money, which scuppered the deal.

It's that word again.

Former chairman Rupert Lowe believes the bid is so derisory that he has even signed a letter along with bitter adversaries Leon Crouch and Michael Wilde rejecting it.

 

[clint van damme]

Depends who you listen to. Richardson says it was mismanagement by McGinnity IIRC. I still think the collapse of ITV Digital screwed us in particular. In reality it was probably about five things at once.

It was a cluster fuck but going down at the same time that TV deal went pop was incredibly bad timing.
With hindsight it was about as watertight as the Wasps bond issue.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It was a cluster fuck but going down at the same time that TV deal went pop was incredibly bad timing.
With hindsight it was about as watertight as the Wasps bond issue.

We also got to trailblaze things people hadn't considered up to that point, such as relagation clauses in contracts.

 

[shmmeee]

It was a cluster fuck but going down at the same time that TV deal went pop was incredibly bad timing.
With hindsight it was about as watertight as the Wasps bond issue.

Is this a dig at my weight?

 

[clint van damme]

Is this a dig at my weight?View attachment 27168

You need to speak to Nick!