TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Cool, let's not punish anyone then. Sounds like an even better deterrent.
How's this justice? (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Like I say evidence suggests that sentences under 6 months are counter productive and as I say deterrence is not part of punishment
Prisons minister looks to scrap sentences of less than six months – The Justice Gap
www.thejusticegap.com
Prison reform trust have recently done some work on understanding society perception and society is so wrong. Prison sentences have never been longer and we’ve never sent more people to prison and it just doesn’t work. Society think sentences have got smaller and prisoners spend less time in prison
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
But I'm saying I don't care, if someone commits a crime they should be punished. I assume you're against public beatings so jail it is.Like I say evidence suggests that sentences under 6 months are counter productive and as I say deterrence is not part of punishment
Prisons minister looks to scrap sentences of less than six months – The Justice Gap
Prison reform trust have recently done some work on understanding society perception and society is so wrong. Prison sentences have never been longer and we’ve never sent more people to prison and it just doesn’t work. Society think sentences have got smaller and prisoners spend less time in prison
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Community orders are far far more effective rather than short sentences as the article shows
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
What about long sentences?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Long sentences don’t work as a deterrent but people need to be punished when they commit crime
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I can agree that first time offences and otherwise short sentences shouldn’t be prison. But I do think there’s value in taking people off the streets. I just wish prison wasn’t better at reform and less a networking club for criminals.
hill83
Well-Known Member
I completely agree. But it’s very rarely cut and dry either way. It’s a tricky one.
You can use this as an example why it might not work.
*daily mail and lunatic country alert
Female World Cup official faces a jail after alleged RAPE in Qatar
Paola Schietekat, 28, was working for the World Cup organising committee in Qatar when she reported that she had been raped by an associate who broke into her apartment and threatened to kill her.
www.dailymail.co.uk
Basically she’d be better off not reporting it, and that’s the risk going down that route. Although it obviously wouldn’t be to that extreme in this country.
Again, tricky one.
If you risked getting 5 years for reporting your house getting burgled would you go ahead and report it?
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hill83
Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I think violent criminals should be in prison for the public’s safety. Non violent ones however you can be more ‘creative’ with the punishment.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
No. England v Scotland from last year.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Takes investment and a desire and yep absolutely taking people off the streets is absolutely part of making things safer, especially for violent crime.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I think more time on reintegration after a long sentence too. Jobs housing and even new social networks.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
ChainedIn?
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
You would cry as I did. Utterly set up to fail. Won’t name prison but long term (over 10 years) so you can imagine but at meeting yesterday probation discussing where they were going to move to and there are no hostel places available in the East Midlands!!! I know they’ve seriously messed up but they shouldn’t be released from this category of prison as there’s no support for their reintegration and then nowhere for them to go where they can be monitored and potentially supported. Utterly despairing and I would say pretty dangerous too
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I was thinking more LockedIn
Nick
Administrator
Another one
news.sky.com
Let's hope she gets sent down for a while.
Eleanor Williams: Woman who made Asian grooming gang claims found guilty of perverting course of justice
Victims told the court how Eleanor Williams had put them through hell and ruined their lives after falsely claiming she had been trafficked and beaten. The 22-year-old will be sentenced in March.
Let's hope she gets sent down for a while.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
AwfulAnother one
Eleanor Williams: Woman who made Asian grooming gang claims found guilty of perverting course of justice
Victims told the court how Eleanor Williams had put them through hell and ruined their lives after falsely claiming she had been trafficked and beaten. The 22-year-old will be sentenced in March.
Let's hope she gets sent down for a while.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Another problem is it that this kind of thing gives the grooming gang apologists a chance to flex their muscles as well.
Nick
Administrator
Not really, the same as it doesn't mean rape doesn't exist.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Not the point I'm making.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Where are the grooming gang apologists? I've never ever heard of them
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Considering there was a whole nationwide scandal of cover ups, I am surprised you've never heard of them.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Are they grooming gang apologists or public bodies covering their arses for not doing anything?
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
They're two different sides of the same coin.
The authorities and your average social justice warrior would rather not tackle it, as it is uncomfortable. Stories like this will fuel that approach. The problem is, they also make it worse for other genuine victims in more than one way, as eventually it can make future prosecutions more difficult to achieve. Some of the countries in the world (Sweden in Europe for example), with the highest number of reported rapes, have the lowest conviction rates. The frequency of crying wolf is a massive factor in that.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sweden is a bit of a false flag. They redefined rape to be pretty much any unwanted sexual contact and it rocketed the rates IIRC.
I’m not sure there’s anyone who doesn’t want rape tackled.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
You are right that the definition of rape in Sweden has been a relevant point, but the problem is much wider than that. The country is notorious for false rape claims. I might have mentioned it before on here but my ex (who was Swedish) pulled that card (not on me thankfully). Socially they are a very strange bunch, especially when alcohol is involved. I know I am digressing a bit, but the point I was trying to make generally is that the more crying of wolf that goes on, the less the real victims get believed.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Don’t get me wrong. Same as DV it’s a nice easy hard to prove crime that someone vindictive can use to settle a score. But what is the alternative?
Such an impossible balance on both of these crimes that usually end up he said she said. Go too far one way (like we used to) and it’s a free pass to rape and beat women, go too far the other and it’s a free pass to ruin (usually) a guys life cos you’re pissed off at him.
I think the balance has to be unquestioning support for any claimed victim, but a higher legal bar and strong punishments for people making claims that don’t meet that bar and privacy for those accused.
I’ve recently had it where I found someone had made an allegation against me (not rape), I went to the police and said I want to clear my name and was told I can’t even be told if there’s an investigation because of privacy laws. Which seems mental. There’s definitely a balance that needs redressing. Equally, you can’t really do much about people making nonsense up to try and ruin your name.
Such a hard balance to strike and I honestly don’t know how you’d do it.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I can see where you are coming from. I don't know the solution either.
All I can say was when I was living in Sweden - circa 2010 - 2012 it was a massive thing where a lot of cases were being thrown out because it was deemed that the victim had unreasonably raised a rape case. Sometimes it was an attempt to get back at someone, but also often it was just a withdrawal of consent the next day. Personal shame/influence of alcohol, call it what you want. Again, socially the Swede's are really strange. Won't talk to strangers in public, or make eye contact, but give them a drink and there's some serious promiscuity among them. It certainly is a factor.
Again though, I just go back to the point that the more false claims, the less real victims get believed. I think with that, and the damage it can do in ruining someone's like (if there was a false accusation), there should be a heavy penalty. This woman here just seems like a proper wrongun, she hit herself with a hammer ffs! It's quite disturbing.
oakey
Well-Known Member
It's a bit late to punish someone for telling lies when they've been getting away with this behaviour all their lives. In the same way it's too late to address violent, sex assaults when being a lad (like Andrew Tate) is celebrated in our culture.
We need to punish lying and aggressive sexualised behaviour at an early age, in girls and boys. In schools it should be a priority. In my experience schools tolerate "brattish girls" and "laddish boys" behaviour way too much.
What we do about a culture that celebrates showing off, getting away with stuff and lad culture, I don't have any answers to.
We need to punish lying and aggressive sexualised behaviour at an early age, in girls and boys. In schools it should be a priority. In my experience schools tolerate "brattish girls" and "laddish boys" behaviour way too much.
What we do about a culture that celebrates showing off, getting away with stuff and lad culture, I don't have any answers to.