Do you want to discuss boring politics? (231 Viewers)

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Health workers already vote Labour, same as teachers. It’s people like @CCFCSteve who they’re trying to reach.

I’ve said before on here that I think union hostility to modernisation and productivity improvements is self defeating. That’s not a right wing position, it’s a pro worker position. I do want the NHS using its world leading data to make care more available and more affordable to the state so we can hire more staff. The number one concern I hear from my GF in the NHS is staffing and ridiculously outdated systems.

Lest we forget if we listened to unions on everything we’d have no NHS, nuclear weapons galore and coal mines still. They’re generally a force for good but they’re not infallible or always even left wing.

Criticise his desire to pump money into private healthcare to bring down waiting lists all you want. But this idea that the Labour Party should just do whatever unions say is silly. And there’s a reason their biggest donors are still unions regardless.

Very interesting comments there-noted that you think we want a lazier workforce…

Though it is interesting that private schools are opposed despite relieving pressure on the state system while private healthcare is getting support for basically the same reason.

 

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[Terry Gibson's perm]

Radio interview this morning saying Labour would double the number of trainee nurse places available, and invest in people. That hook is one I can get behind...

Sounds great but maybe they need to help them with financial support during the training. If my wife was going to start in nursing now she wouldn’t bother as the cost of getting the degree is high and the free work you have to do is scandalous, you start with loads of debt and the pay is rubbish and stays rubbish all the way through, she would become a firefighter (looking at my neighbour it’s a doddle very rarely in has a second business for his numerous days off).

 

[clint van damme]

Health workers already vote Labour, same as teachers. It’s people like @CCFCSteve who they’re trying to reach.

I’ve said before on here that I think union hostility to modernisation and productivity improvements is self defeating. That’s not a right wing position, it’s a pro worker position. I do want the NHS using its world leading data to make care more available and more affordable to the state so we can hire more staff. The number one concern I hear from my GF in the NHS is staffing and ridiculously outdated systems.

Lest we forget if we listened to unions on everything we’d have no NHS, nuclear weapons galore and coal mines still. They’re generally a force for good but they’re not infallible or always even left wing.

Criticise his desire to pump money into private healthcare to bring down waiting lists all you want. But this idea that the Labour Party should just do whatever unions say is silly. And there’s a reason their biggest donors are still unions regardless.

I don't have Steve down as a Spectator reader!

There's a lot of points there I wouldn't disagree with but you seem to be contradicting your usual 'anything to get elected' stance.
Courting tory voters is one thing but thinking tory voters will change their minds while simultaneously thinking nurses and teachers won't no matter what you do seems a very risky strategy to me.

 

[shmmeee]

I don't have Steve down as a Spectator reader!

There's a lot of points there I wouldn't disagree with but you seem to be contradicting your usual 'anything to get elected' stance.
Courting tory voters is one thing but thinking tory voters will change their minds while simultaneously thinking nurses and teachers won't no matter what you do seems a very risky strategy to me.

Change their minds to what though? Because if it ain’t the Tories then it doesn’t really matter. That’s the sad reality of it. When Blair won in 97 the Lib Dem’s positioned themselves to the left and picked up some votes. The greens might do similar.

And “Tory voters” is a large swathe of people. You seem to think they’re all rabid capitalists or Brexiteers but most are just not very political people who want moderation.

This was Corbyns issue and why banging on about the total voter numbers was stupid. He piled up votes in safe seats and lost all the marginals.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Change their minds to what though? Because if it ain’t the Tories then it doesn’t really matter. That’s the sad reality of it. When Blair won in 97 the Lib Dem’s positioned themselves to the left and picked up some votes. The greens might do similar.

And “Tory voters” is a large swathe of people. You seem to think they’re all rabid capitalists or Brexiteers but most are just not very political people who want moderation.

This was Corbyns issue and why banging on about the total voter numbers was stupid. He piled up votes in safe seats and lost all the marginals.

And yet the Tories can run as far right as they want and get called moderate or centrists. Because the Overton window in this country has shifted so far right the threshold to be called far left seems to now be supporting the right to strike.

 

[shmmeee]

And yet the Tories can run as far right as they want and get called moderate or centrists. Because the Overton window in this country has shifted so far right the threshold to be called far left seems to now be supporting the right to strike.

They can’t though. They ran right and the markets and voters gave them a kicking.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

They can’t though. They ran right and the markets and voters gave them a kicking.

I mean basically every election since 2010

 

[fernandopartridge]

Change their minds to what though? Because if it ain’t the Tories then it doesn’t really matter. That’s the sad reality of it. When Blair won in 97 the Lib Dem’s positioned themselves to the left and picked up some votes. The greens might do similar.

And “Tory voters” is a large swathe of people. You seem to think they’re all rabid capitalists or Brexiteers but most are just not very political people who want moderation.

This was Corbyns issue and why banging on about the total voter numbers was stupid. He piled up votes in safe seats and lost all the marginals.

The place you might lose them to is just voting for nobody at all, and you don't want the working age population staying at home.

 

[shmmeee]

The place you might lose them to is just voting for nobody at all, and you don't want the working age population staying at home.

Where’s the indication they will though? The number of people who take such a hardline view as people in this thread and live in marginal seats is tiny. That’s the point.

 

[CCFCSteve]

Health workers already vote Labour, same as teachers. It’s people like @CCFCSteve who they’re trying to reach.

I’ve said before on here that I think union hostility to modernisation and productivity improvements is self defeating. That’s not a right wing position, it’s a pro worker position. I do want the NHS using its world leading data to make care more available and more affordable to the state so we can hire more staff. The number one concern I hear from my GF in the NHS is staffing and ridiculously outdated systems.

Lest we forget if we listened to unions on everything we’d have no NHS, nuclear weapons galore and coal mines still. They’re generally a force for good but they’re not infallible or always even left wing.

Criticise his desire to pump money into private healthcare to bring down waiting lists all you want. But this idea that the Labour Party should just do whatever unions say is silly. And there’s a reason their biggest donors are still unions regardless.

I had an email to say I was tagged, slightly disappointment there was no expletives involved and it was just me being dragged into a lefty argument on unions and labour

I think you’re correct though for what it’s worth. I’ve said before Labour have to position themselves for the majority.

I was surprised by some of Streetings comments but see him as a solid communicator and ultimately a positive for Labour. From the bits I heard he was being honest about what he believes the country can afford and the expectations on the BMA to deliver for patients if more support is provided. He’s talking about potential solutions to the problems within nhs. Hardly controversial.

In terms of the strikes there still isn’t the acceptance by some that ultimately higher wages is likely to lead to higher prices or higher taxes* (or reduced services although that would be hard !!), which the public will then have to pay. That’s just the way it works.

There’s hopefully a fair solution for all. I think I’ve said before a decent pay rise** with a one off bonus would seem sensible, especially if inflation is likely to drop/if we’re moving into a deflationary period

*or print/borrow more money - Fernando
*inflationary/near inflation for lowest paid. Lower for those on higher salaries

 

[shmmeee]

I mean basically every election since 2010

Again though they didn’t. 2017 was a Brexit election so can basically be discounted. Cameron was a moderate, Johnson was rhetorically left wing in his campaign (spend money on public services and infrastructure). The first “proper” right winger was Truss and she lasted less time than a lettuce. Look at the reactions from hard line Tories to her budget and subsequent removal. They’re sounding like Corbynites talking about party democracy and how there’s been a coup by the moderates.

 

[shmmeee]

I had an email to say I was tagged, slightly disappointment there was no expletives involved and it was just me being dragged into a lefty argument on unions and labour

I think you’re correct though for what it’s worth. I’ve said before Labour have to position themselves for the majority.

I was surprised by some of Streetings comments but see him as a solid communicator and ultimately a positive for Labour. From the bits I heard he was being honest about what he believes the country can afford and the expectations on the BMA to deliver for patients if more support is provided.

In terms of the strikes there still isn’t the acceptance by some that ultimately higher wages is likely to lead to higher prices or higher taxes* (or reduced services although that would be hard !!), which the public will then have to pay. That’s just the way it works.

There’s hopefully a fair solution for all. I think I’ve said before a decent pay rise** with a one off bonus would seem sensible, especially if inflation is likely to drop/if we’re moving into a deflationary period

*or print/borrow more money - Fernando
*inflationary/near inflation for lowest paid. Lower for those on higher salaries

Sorry! I just like to tag people if I’m talking about them (unless there are expletives involved )

 

[shmmeee]

I had an email to say I was tagged, slightly disappointment there was no expletives involved and it was just me being dragged into a lefty argument on unions and labour

I think you’re correct though for what it’s worth. I’ve said before Labour have to position themselves for the majority.

I was surprised by some of Streetings comments but see him as a solid communicator and ultimately a positive for Labour. From the bits I heard he was being honest about what he believes the country can afford and the expectations on the BMA to deliver for patients if more support is provided. He’s talking about potential solutions to the problems within nhs. Hardly controversial.

In terms of the strikes there still isn’t the acceptance by some that ultimately higher wages is likely to lead to higher prices or higher taxes* (or reduced services although that would be hard !!), which the public will then have to pay. That’s just the way it works.

There’s hopefully a fair solution for all. I think I’ve said before a decent pay rise** with a one off bonus would seem sensible, especially if inflation is likely to drop/if we’re moving into a deflationary period

*or print/borrow more money - Fernando
*inflationary/near inflation for lowest paid. Lower for those on higher salaries

Higher wages have a very small impact on prices overall. Probably more in public services because they’re so labour intensive (I know for a fact school budgets are 85% staff costs for example). But they also come back in tax and student loan payments and reduced benefits bills as well as not reducing disposable income that is spent in the rest of the economy.

Yea this report was commissioned by the Royal College of Nurses, but reckons the true cost would be more like 20% of the headline figure because of that: https://londoneconomics.co.uk/wp-co...INAL-report-SENT2CLIENT-27-10-2022.pdf#page20

Anyway if you want to know more on my feelings about pay rises read the Sheffield United ticket request thread

 

[fernandopartridge]

If ever something demonstrated that public sector pay increases are good for the overall economy this is it

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What I want to know is when, as a public sector employee, I'll get a wage rise to match inflation. I won't now, apparently, because it'll spike inflation further. I didn't when inflation was low because, well... because.

So what conditions am I waiting for to get my inflation beating pay rise, to make up for the decade of my wages falling behind the economy in real terms?

 

[shmmeee]

What I want to know is when, as a public sector employee, I'll get a wage rise to match inflation. I won't now, apparently, because it'll spike inflation further. I didn't when inflation was low because, well... because.

So what conditions am I waiting for to get my inflation beating pay rise, to make up for the decade of my wages falling behind the economy in real terms?

When you quit and go work in the private sector.

 

[wingy]

People losing something like four K from their salary /disposable income from salaries circa £25k .
Not fair or sustainable and not beneficial to the overall economy either .
Just needs the BOE to stick 0.5% on top and it's a happy Christmas to all.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Again though they didn’t. 2017 was a Brexit election so can basically be discounted. Cameron was a moderate, Johnson was rhetorically left wing in his campaign (spend money on public services and infrastructure). The first “proper” right winger was Truss and she lasted less time than a lettuce. Look at the reactions from hard line Tories to her budget and subsequent removal. They’re sounding like Corbynites talking about party democracy and how there’s been a coup by the moderates.

Every election is influenced by the issues of its time. 2010 was ‘the recession’ election, 2019 was another Brexit one, 2007 the ‘Iraq’ election etc.

I fail to see how Cameron and his campaigning for a referendum and hardcore austerity made him a moderate to be honest. As I said, the Overton window is skewed

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Every election is influenced by the issues of its time. 2010 was ‘the recession’ election, 2019 was another Brexit one, 2007 the ‘Iraq’ election etc.

I fail to see how Cameron and his campaigning for a referendum and hardcore austerity made him a moderate to be honest. As I said, the Overton window is skewed

tbf Cameron came across before he became PM as moderate in comparison with Duncan Smith, Hague and Howard

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

tbf Cameron came across before he became PM as moderate in comparison with Duncan Smith, Hague and Howard

I’m just saying the threshold for Labour to be called moderate is very different from what it is for the Tories. To be called far right in this country you basically have to be a neo Nazi or Britain First. To be far left, not quite

 

[JAM See]

I’m just saying the threshold for Labour to be called moderate is very different from what it is for the Tories. To be called far right in this country you basically have to be a neo Nazi or Britain First. To be far left, not quite

Low/zero taxation is good.
Public sector has gold plated pensions and jobs for life.
The country is flooded with Albanians.
Why are teachers moaning? They get 13 weeks off a year and only work 9-3 anyway.
Unions are bringing this great country to its knees.
With Brexit, we have TakEn bAcK cONtRol (Blue passports and a crown on a pint glass proves this).
PR leads to unstable government, just like in Germany Italy.
Cronies and clergy are absolutely the right people to hold the HoC to account.

This is the new normal with the majority of the press from what I see.

I sincerely hope that Starmer recognises this, and is planning to change the narrative once in power.

 

[shmmeee]

Every election is influenced by the issues of its time. 2010 was ‘the recession’ election, 2019 was another Brexit one, 2007 the ‘Iraq’ election etc.

I fail to see how Cameron and his campaigning for a referendum and hardcore austerity made him a moderate to be honest. As I said, the Overton window is skewed

No. 2017 was very specifically about Brexit, there was huge temporary realignment along Brexit lines that none of the others came close to. There was no 2007 election BTW.

Cameron was hard right to you because anyone who isn’t a member of the SWP is hard right to you, but to most people he was more continuation Blair with a bit more fiscal responsibility or Clegg without the baggage.

The fact is most voters are more like Blair or Cameron than Truss or Corbyn. The number of hyper-involved politics geeks with strong views on left vs right is tiny in comparison.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No. 2017 was very specifically about Brexit, there was huge temporary realignment along Brexit lines that none of the others came close to. There was no 2007 election BTW.

Cameron was hard right to you because anyone who isn’t a member of the SWP is hard right to you, but to most people he was more continuation Blair with a bit more fiscal responsibility or Clegg without the baggage.

The fact is most voters are more like Blair or Cameron than Truss or Corbyn. The number of hyper-involved politics geeks with strong views on left vs right is tiny in comparison.

Good grief

 

[stupot07]

Decade of neglect means NHS unable to tackle care backlog, report says

Exclusive: Government-commissioned paper pinpoints budget squeeze as key reason for service’s loss of capacity

www.theguardian.com

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk

 

[shmmeee]

Good grief

You think the soft left of the Labour Party are right wing FFS. Good grief indeed.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You think the soft left of the Labour Party are right wing FFS. Good grief indeed.

Never said that. I said the Overton window had shifted right.

 

[shmmeee]

Never said that. I said the Overton window had shifted right.

You spend your time complaining a soft left leader is too right wing.

And has it? Polling suggests the opposite:

How public support for tax and spend has surged

Fifty two per cent of voters support higher taxes and public spending, and just 6 per cent want them cut.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[JAM See]

Have we covered this?

Four people charged over Qatar’s alleged bribing of EU officials

Charges come after Belgian police made six arrests and seized phones, computers and €600,000 in cash

www.theguardian.com

Embarrassing isn't it?

EU officials arrested and charged with corruption following a proper investigation by the actual police.

Michelle Mone takes a 'leave of absence' from a job she didn't even apply for, following a newspaper investigation

Brexit : Taking Back Control.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Embarrassing isn't it?

EU officials arrested and charged with corruption following a proper investigation by the actual police.

Michelle Mone takes a 'leave of absence' from a job she didn't even apply for, following a newspaper investigation

Brexit : Taking Back Control.

Making the point about the EU being corrupt would have been sufficient enough...

 

[JAM See]

Making the point about the EU being corrupt would have been sufficient enough...

Sadly, corruption exists in all walks of life.

It's how it is dealt with that is important.

 

[fernandopartridge]

You have to look across the pond for any sober journalism about the state of the UK and its causes. Thanks to the Tories and those that vote for them.

Britain's deepening hunger crisis leaves millions resorting to desperate measures

NBC News spent a week in the seaside town of Morecambe, speaking with dozens of people about the real costs of this story of Western poverty.

www.nbcnews.com

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Sadly, corruption exists in all walks of life.

It's how it is dealt with that is important.

If that had been a ring of tories this thread would be another 10 pages long. That's the point.

'It happens everywhere' is a really poor take.

 

[clint van damme]

If that had been a ring of tories this thread would be another 10 pages long. That's the point.

'It happens everywhere' is a really poor take.

To be honest that's bollocks.
Given how astonishingly corrupt the whole Mone affair is its hardly been mentioned and the role of a senior in the whole affair even less.

 

[skybluetony176]

If that had been a ring of tories this thread would be another 10 pages long. That's the point.

'It happens everywhere' is a really poor take.

We’ve left, get over it.

 

[skybluetony176]

To be honest that's bollocks.
Given how astonishingly corrupt the whole Mone affair is its hardly been mentioned and the role of a senior in the whole affair even less.

Or the Owen Patterson debacle where the Tories tried to retrospectively change the rules to bail him out. Or the breaking of the ministerial code by various Tory MP’s for things that not that many years before would have ended said MP’s career, only to be ignored and swept under the carpet.