Turn the lights off (2 Viewers)

[georgehudson]

buses running to time from the city centre to the vicinity of the ricoh are an absolute lottery,
plus the set down areas (bus stops) are a minimum of 440 yds from the ground,
Q.E.D.

 

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[ajsccfc]

If you're saying that a 25-minute walk is easy, you can't now claim a 440-yard one is a hardship.

FACT QE2

 

[gally9]

When we played Chelsea in the cup did the council lay on magic carpets to the ground? As I seem to remember people having no fucking trouble getting to the ground then..

Any sort of success will see the crowds coming back, we have just been completely starved of it.

 

[CJparker]

Another useless thread moaning about the Ricoh and looking back at HR with rose-tinted spectacles - FACT CHECK, we are not leaving the Ricoh, HR is gone, so we all need to get used to that and start making the most of it

 

[oldskyblue58]

when you think about it ACL make 17million in a year we moved their in season2006 -2007 so thats 6 years in that time the ricoh has earned 102million.Thats shows if we owned the ground we would'nt be in this mess.We should have stayed at highfield road until we could afford a new ground thats it in a nutshell its the club that lost out and everyone contacted to ground wins

complete rubbish !

Trading profits ACL
2006 loss £3.4m
2007 profit £870k
2008 profit £8k
2009 loss £1.7m (profit on accounts shows £3.2m which includes a one off benefit of £4.9m from reorganising the lease and group)
2010 profit £546k
2011 profit £471k

(source - Companies House)

I make that a total surplus in 6 years of £1.695m for ACL .......... during which time the football club group under SISU and previous owners has lost £41.5m

ACL dont even turnover 17m in a year let alone make it. Certainly would not have dug CCFC out of the deep hole the club has made for themselves

 

[skyblueman]

complete rubbish !

Trading profits ACL
2006 loss £3.4m
2007 profit £870k
2008 profit £8k
2009 loss £1.7m (profit on accounts shows £3.2m which includes a one off benefit of £4.9m from reorganising the lease and group)
2010 profit £546k
2011 profit £471k

(source - Companies House)

I make that a total surplus in 6 years of £1.695m for ACL .......... during which time the football club group under SISU and previous owners has lost £41.5m

ACL dont even turnover 17m in a year let alone make it. Certainly would not have dug CCFC out of the deep hole the club has made for themselves

So we can all see why a rent reduction is going to hit ACL hard - they offered a 50% reduction which I thought was very generous seeing as it's going to put them into loss

 

[oldskyblue58]

The stadium operates as follows

ACL own a lease from the council. Compass operate the stadium functions, events etc for which they have paid for the right to do so and after deducting their costs give ACL a share of the profit made. The turnover does not all belong to ACL. CCFC lease the stadium, shop and some office space from ACL for which they pay rent and the apportioned amount of utilities. Out of the income ACL make they repay loans and interest and normal costs such as wages of the small staff they employ.

IF CCFC owned the ground they would still have to bring in someone like Compass to man the various outlets bars and rooms or employ staff themselves, they would still have to repay loans and interest on the purchase of the long lease from the council (23m i believe at the start) or to pay loans & interest for the build costs (which would not have included the grants the Council got) and would have been north of £50m (interest at say 5%pa is £2.5m pa or twice the rent), they would still have to pay all the costs that ACL do..... but they would save £1.2m in rent.

Saving the rent over the six years would have recouped 7.2m off the £41.5 m losses leaving deficit of £34.3m for the football group but plus the additional interest on loans to acquire the stadium (over 6 years at least 7m interest to get lease or 15m to get freehold). Would that be offset by the surplus made by ACL ..... well no because the £1.7m surplus they made in 6 years would have £7.2m deducted from it the lost CCFC rent.

So we would have a club still with massive losses .......... owning a stadium that would be mortgaged to the hilt.......... still in a financial mess with everything very much at risk ....... and still probably operating in league 1

and yet with all that financial mess we can still move from where we are to another purpose built site ............... so long as it is built out of Lego and sized accordingly then i guess its a go..........

I would prefer a site with easier access but the problem isnt really stadium it is, has been, and will remain for some time CCFC its self.

edit ....... now ask yourself knowing all that where the real reason for the losses lays?...... doesnt look like it is the rent or lack of stadium ownership ...... a reasoned alternative with the club owning the stadium still leaves massive losses and worse the stadium at very real risk

 

[skyblueman]

It by any measure a monumental failure by the club - there is no other party to blame here - it should never have happened but it did and we are stuck with it

There can be no easy way out of this mess unless we have the serious good fortune of a massively wealthy owner prepared to take on the entire infrastructure and club

 

[SBS]

There are simply too many people/companies trying to take a profit out of the Ricoh. Too many fingers in a small pie. CCFC will be the first to have their fingers snapped at this rate

 

[skyblueman]

Personally, if you're looking for the root cause of all this financial misery in the lower leagues then you need look no further than SKY

SKY is the cause of this meltdown, the cause of all these chairmen seduced by the promise of riches in the promised land of the Premier league

The need to spend spend spend when you are there for fear of relegation - sure the parachute payments helped many cope with the drop but not Coventry

That was the cause of our spectacular decline and effective bankruptcy

I hate Sky for ruining the game in this country and turning it into a one league circus at the expense of every other club - and for that reason I will never have SKY and shame on all of you that do

 

[oldskyblue58]

At first sight the rent at £1.2m seems expensive ........ but to get the lease ACL took out £23m in finance if CCFC had to have done that they would own a long lease but be paying interest instead of rent. Had the club purchase the land from the council (a cost i didnt include above) then build costs would have accrued interest that would be in the early years twice the current rent. Those figures take no account of the cash flow required to repay any of the capital of the loans.

The project went ahead because of the council, indeed some of the grants received, and loans could only have been obtained by the council. It is all there in the council minutes

In that time the Charity and council have not taken a penny from ACL .......... both invested in the project and that money could have earnt interest elsewhere. In actual cash the council put in £10m and the charity bought into ACL for just over £6m. At 3% interest on deposit then they have jointly foregone something close to £3m in lost earnings over the 6 years.

Now to aide the club further they are prepared to instruct ACL to reduce the rent, which makes the finances tough for ACL. The charity is prepared to compromise on a deal for the shares not make a profit on it. Yet CCFC/SISU still are not satisfied

Think folk should look at little more deeply and actually deal with the facts. The problem at the Ricoh is CCFC and the reality is that to date every owner has failed to deal with the finances.......... and that is on going, except now we do not have a playing side doing anything to soften the blows

But still supporters feel it is the council, ACL etc doing the club over ........... now its the stadium is too big, in the wrong place etc.

I went past the Liberty stadium Swansea the other day .......... on the out skirts away from city centre .......... thats a club thats doing ok well supported not in the heart of the city but had big problems not so long ago..... makes you think really......

 

[oldskyblue58]

just a thought .......... say another ground cost £25m to buy and build

mortgage of £25m over 25 years at 5% interest would be repayments of interest and capital at £1.8m pa. On an interest only basis it would be £1.25m pa. That is around 3600 paying customers per game just to pay the interest

 

[TheSnoz]

Oldskyblue, always read your posts with great interest. Cheers. Putting aside all those financial considerations I still feel we should seriously think about letting this noose around our neck go. It is horribly situated, isn't really that pedestrian friendly etc. Move to a more central location with a more compact ground. Get the club and the ground back with the fans. Sure lots of obstacles, but no need for Lego. I feel it would begin to turn around our fortunes. Moff posted in another thread about how Torino, saddled with a stadium far too big for them, moved back into the city, more compact stadium and things are on the up for them
Let ACL, Compass, SISU, the Council, uncle Tom et al, fight over this place. And we can move on. Torino set a precedent, let's follow it.

 

[Ashdown]

Snoz, you are dreaming beyond reality. Theres nothing wrong with the Ricoh, its a fabulous stadium and the transport links are more than capable of shifting in and out 32,000 people. I went to HR from 1977-2005 and it was falling down by the end, stuck in a shite area where people had their cars smashed up, the pubs were largely awful and the parking worse than CV6. As for filling this new little dreamworld..............Coventry people would still come up with excuses not to go. All we need is some success on the pitch, a bit of momentum and the Ricoh will be rocking again and the fans will once again be able to hold their heads up.

 

[shy_tall_knight]

The arena without the football club would be seen as a white elephant project and it would effect its credibility. £1.2M rent p.a would be sorely missed by ACL. Don't think there is an easy solution, sucess on the pitch bigger crowds, more income leading to Premiership windfall - 11 years in the championship proved this is unlikely to happen without significant investment. Administration starting afresh with a new deal for the stadium

 

[oldskyblue58]

Look I understand the thought of easier access, user friendly etc all good points but you can not put the finances to one side they are inextricably linked. There is no new ground to go to unlike Torino, it would need to be found and built .... that costs. Can hardly expect the council to chip in next time, plus you might find it hard to get council planning permission. The whole point though is that without the club dealing with its own issues not least of which is gaining success on the pitch then all you would be doing is transplanting the problems from one ground to another and exchanging one financial millstone as you put it for another.

Without the club addressing its problems, without the team succeeding (and that means promotion this season or next) then neither ground is viable to ccfc.

It would require a completely fresh start in order to work and to break old leases, get rid of debts we have etc .......... that means admin or liquidation in reality, at the same time as a new ground is made available ...... that is a stretch too far for me

btw Torino (5th most successful team of all time in italy)
Torino went bust and got kicked out of the League. they reformed and i would guess got rid of a lot of financial baggage
their ground holds 28140 (Ricoh holds 32609 so not so dis similar)
The ground was refurbished but already existed (was the ground they shared with Juve up until 1990) but work done also because of winter olympics
Stadio Delle Alpi was knocked down in 2009 reopened 08/08/11 with capacity of 41000 (edit)
The thing making ACL money are the events halls etc which is part of what SISU are after - rules out a lot of city center sites because they wont be big enough, also increases cost to build if required at new site.

I hear what you say about easier to get to and perhaps more user friendly but like it or not everything now and in the future at CCFC depends on cold hard finance.

 

[ajsccfc]

The new Juve stadium that was built is nearer the 40000 kind of size isn't it? One of the things about the Delle Alpi was that it was so empty and cavernous so they wanted a more intimate ground.

 

[oldskyblue58]

yes ajsccfc my mistake its 41000 not 67000 (thats the old one)

 

[oldskyblue58]

Just to compare Torino Ground to Ricoh

Torino Capacity 28140
Serie B (second division)
2009/10 ave 13584 48% full 5th
2010/11 ave 11163 40% full 8th
2011/12 ave 15170 54% full (promoted) 2nd

crowds in Serie B are similar to League 1 ....... Torino were a big team in Serie B

Ricoh
capacity 32609
2009/10 17305 53% full 19th
2010/11 16310 50% full 18th
2011/12 15119 46% full relegated 23rd

Crowds might be low now but if we got promoted i would be willing to bet even in League 1 we could attract more than Torino did in their promotion season

Doesnt look too different to me - certainly does not prove that city centre stadium wins over an out of town one

 

[SBS]

As appealing as it sounds (all these ideas about a new city centre ground) we're basically at the Ricoh or we don't exist at all. The reason The Ricoh makes so much money is that it can diversify into other events - rugby, concerts, exhibitions etc. A new city centre ground would cost a) money we don't have b) planning permission that we'd never get c) a suitable area which would be nearer impossible to find.

We should never have left HR in the first place, but these ideas of building something new are ludicrous. I think one problem with the Ricoh is the distance from the pitch to the stand. Now the pitch is smaller its a few metres from the stand to the touchline and from a football supporter point of view, its just not intimidating. But then as I said, it's probably so they can fit a Rugby pitch on it. We can't sit here and admire how much the Ricoh makes, yet target some of aspects about the things that make it possible. It is simply too many companies involved.

Something that is interesting in terms of the companies linked to the Ricoh. Mike McGinnity seems to have a few of his companies involved in The Ricoh. I'm sure he was or still is something to do with Compass Group, who provide the catering for the Ricoh. The only evidence I can find is a link to a Cov Mad article from a few years ago (http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/feat/ed15/season_tickets_coming_soon_399508/index.shtml) . A couple of searches on goggle later, I also stumbled across another article from 2004 on Cov Mad (http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/feat/ed11/helping_to_shape_the_arena_171766/index.shtml). If you read through that one, it questions whether a company he was involved in provided the seats for the ground. Again, I know this could all be coincidence, but what the did the club start selling a couple of years later for £500? True Sky Blue padded seats!

I'm not sitting here saying all of that is true, I just spent 10 minutes on google search and that's what I found. Either way, I think a select few made thousands from our move, then ran away laughing.

Edit: Corrected some of my appalling grammar!

 

[Moff]

Just to compare Torino Ground to Ricoh

Torino Capacity 28140
Serie B (second division)
2009/10 ave 13584 48% full 5th
2010/11 ave 11163 40% full 8th
2011/12 ave 15170 54% full (promoted) 2nd

crowds in Serie B are similar to League 1 ....... Torino were a big team in Serie B

Ricoh
capacity 32609
2009/10 17305 53% full 19th
2010/11 16310 50% full 18th
2011/12 15119 46% full relegated 23rd

Crowds might be low now but if we got promoted i would be willing to bet even in League 1 we could attract more than Torino did in their promotion season

Doesnt look too different to me - certainly does not prove that city centre stadium wins over an out of town one

Whilst I only raised the Torino example originally as an aspirational dream, and accept that at no time in the current climate could it ever be considered I do have to add to a point above.

In terms of Torino's fortunes there crowd base dropped to only 5 or 6k at the Stadio Delle Alpi after they had moved there, (in Serie A) thus meaning from your above averages that their crowd levels dropped by at least half. It was from this that the finacial problems started, which led to their financial collapse.

Since moving back into the city although their crowds are not huge, they have at least doubled and that is only in Serie B. They have now been promoted to Serie A, and their average attendances should improve.

Please before anyone has a go, I am not currently suggesting this for us, just responding toa pint OSB made.

 

[smouch1975]

Can I ask you guys to look at the following????
This is the casino, hotel and concert site here in Perth, it's not in the city centre it's about 4 miles out

Crown Perth (formerly known as Burswood Entertainment Complex) is located on the Swan River near the city of Perth, Western Australia, and is owned by Crown Limited. The complex includes a 24-hour casino, a wide range of restaurants and bars, two hotels (the luxury 5-star Crown Metropol and 4-star Crown Promenade), a Convention Centre, nightclub, 2,300-seat theatre and 20,000-seat indoor. Burswood Train Station, near The Dome, provides a public transport link to the Perth CBD.

Recent concerts include
27 & 28 FebruaryColdplay[29]
1 MayBrooks & Dunn[30]
22 & 23 May – 7 & 8 AugustP!nk[31]
30 MayPussycat Dolls[32]
2 JulySimon & Garfunkel[33]
24 SeptemberBeyoncé[34]
8 OctoberIl Divo[35]
10 OctoberBlack Eyed Peas[36]
6 & 7 NovemberBritney Spears[37]
21 NovemberNickelback[38]
4 DecemberGreen Day[39]
2010
6 & 7 FebruaryCliff Richard and the Shadows[40]
1 AprilLady Gaga[41]
31 JulyWinterbeatz[42]
22 & 23 OctoberMetallica[43]
23 NovemberSummerbeatz[44]
6 DecemberGorillaz[45]
7 DecemberLinkin Park[46]
2011
12 MarchRihanna[47]
15 MarchUsher[48]
20 AprilDisturbed[49]
7 MayJustin Bieber[50]
22 JuneKylie Minogue[51]
2 JulyMiley Cyrus[52]
8 NovemberDolly Parton[53]
11 DecemberElton John[54]
2012
27 & 28 JanuaryRoger Waters[55]
2 MarchTaylor Swift[56]
17 MayFlorence + The Machine[57]
29 MayNKOTBSB[58]
7 & 8 JulyLady Gaga[59]
23 AugustPitbull[60]
6 SeptemberThe Beach Boys[61]


In 2018, this is getting slapped on the side of it

As with the earlier plans for the new stadium at Kitchener Park, the stadium is intended to seat 60,000 spectators, with potential for this capacity to be extended to 80,000 in the future by adding a third tier along one wing and another tier on the opposite side of the ground each holding 10,000 seats.[13] It is expected that this would give it the third-biggest capacity of any stadium in the country.[14]

The dimensions of the stadium will be 165 metres long and 130 metres wide, which is five metres longer than both the Melbourne Cricket Ground and Etihad Stadium in Melbourne, but 10 metres shorter than Subiaco Oval.[13] It will be a multi-purpose facility able to hold not only sporting events such as Australian rules football and major international rugby, cricket and soccer games, but major cultural events such as concerts. It is envisaged that the stadium will be similar to Ethiad Stadium, with comparable views, amenities and comfort.[6]

Are you fucking serious??? You want to go back to a 20000 seater stadium in the city centre with a cold pie and a fucking parking ticket. CCFC are the heart of the RICHO. Do you not see the advantage of away fans, shopping, watching a game, spending money in the casino and staying a night in the hotel.

There is much to be won by encompassing a whole weekend experience. Those SISU fucks know this and it's what they are after.

Move ground. Wrong answer. CCFC own the RICOH, then have a partnership in future developments. Spot on

Start winning and stop booing!

 

[Changeyourface]

A weekend experience of constant buses, no pubs, nothing to do around the ground unless you fancy doing your groceries, no walk up, having to trek over to Bedworh every Saturday to watch your team lose in a less than half full horrible plastic stadium. I'll have the 23,000 shithole and cold pie back please.

 

[Covcraig@bury]

I would go with that, but as always theres a stumbling block. Cov Council and Higgs Trust (ACL).
The only way forward would be for SISU to own the whole shabang, and generate a proffit.
ACL are making money !!!
Are they putting anything back into CCFC ? I dont think so.
Until they both give up there Shares in the Ricoh we are Fucked, and always will be unless we get a Shiek sugar daddy with a endless pot of money and buy the job lot.
:thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

 

[Covcraig@bury]

A weekend experience of constant buses, no pubs, nothing to do around the ground unless you fancy doing your groceries, no walk up, having to trek over to Bedworh every Saturday to watch your team lose in a less than half full horrible plastic stadium. I'll have the 23,000 shithole and cold pie back please.


COUNT ME IN !

 

[davebart]

I would go with that, but as always theres a stumbling block. Cov Council and Higgs Trust (ACL).
The only way forward would be for SISU to own the whole shabang, and generate a proffit.
ACL are making money !!!
Are they putting anything back into CCFC ? I dont think so.
Until they both give up there Shares in the Ricoh we are Fucked, and always will be unless we get a Shiek sugar daddy with a endless pot of money and buy the job lot.
:thinking about::thinking about::thinking about:

Where would we be playing if the council and Higgs had not built the ground for us? The Ricoh cost over £100m. Where would that have come from? The supporter's trust?

We should be grateful to them. It wasn't even their idea to have it in the present location in the first place. That was the club's.

 

[smouch1975]

Let me be very clear. Before others jump on and cry me down.

I have never, not in my post or at anytime called HR a shithole. Further more I fully accept that some only want to be at the venue, any venue for 90 minutes. That's all right by me.

Others have posted about why SISU want the stadium and the adjacent land. I've given an example. Nothing more.

It is the clubs right to be part of all incomes the sight does/can generate.

Is this true today, no. Can it change. It must.

CTID

 

[oldskyblue58]

lets get something clear .......... the club wants to own the stadium ...... then lets see the colour of the money and buy it

the club wants the shares in ACL ..... again show the Charity and Council the money

the club wants the right to income ....... then buy them again show ACL the money

Structure a deal that gets those assets (income streams are an asset and have value) or shut up

Lets be clear CCFC do not own the stadium, ACL or the income streams, they sold all of those rights years ago .......... the Charity and Council cannot simply gift away those assets - it would break Local government and Charity law. To be honest why should they give their assets away to shadowy investors with no interest in the city. Why did CCFC sell, they had to so the club survived otherwise it was no ground, no finance and no club. The Charity and Council didnt go looking to do the deal it was CCFC that sought them out

CCFC is not something worthy of charity....... ACL The Higgs Charity and Council owe CCFC nothing. It is far better they all work in unison to everyones benefit but being a football club on its uppers does not give it any more rights simply because they cant manage a piss up in brewery.

The Ricoh was never simply structured as a new home for CCFC .......... it is part of a regeneration plan for a huge part of the city. CCFC have played very little part in the development of non football income, are incapable of developing the site further, i would guess have very little by way of plans to do so.......... yet the non football side of things brings in the majority of the income

CCFC want buy it....... do a deal to buy over a number of years, do a profits earn out whatever ......... they shouldnt just expect it or think they have right to it and neither should the fans. Become part of it ..... stop being confrontational and one dimensional, buy into the project financially and emotionally - CCFC have singularly failed to do so this far

I really dont hold with this "we are a football club we deserve, its ours, its our right, woe is us attitude" CCFC is a private business that has responsibilities to its customers (supporters ) it has clearly failed to meet for decades. The only plan in SISU's mind is to get hold of the stadium cheaply and to sell it on for as much as possible...... do you really think the football club is going to greatly benefit !

 

[smouch1975]

OSB, I think we agree on many points. I make no assertion CCFC deserve any part of it. I feel there will be a day when there is no CCFC without a part of it

 

[cloughie]

Have been saying the same but strangley some don't get it. CCFC are just a vehicle to get the Ricoh on the cheap ( the agreement to buy at a set price, which only CCFC own) and sell on at a huge profit.

 

[smouch1975]

Have been saying the same but strangley some don't get it. CCFC are just a vehicle to get the Ricoh on the cheap ( the agreement to buy at a set price, which only CCFC own) and sell on at a huge profit.

You're right somebody posted elsewhere the stadium is worth £100 mill. But CCFC can get it for between £6-10mill if ACL and council agree the owners have the future of CCFC at heart. Hence no deal to date with SISU

 

[CJparker]

Some excellent posts in this thread, far above the usual SBT fare. Lots of depressing reading, but if we take on positive it's the knowledge that simply owning a share in the Ricoh is nowhere near enough to solve our financial problems - by being realistic by keeping this mind, at least we will be fully aware of the challenge we face.

 

[ccfcway]

i havent read all this thread, I thought it was a money saving exercise by SISU to reduce the electricity bills

 

[Chipfat]

The only benefit of owning the Ricoh will go to SISU when they sell it on,, securing the investors money is SISU only concern and has been form day 1... This is why the council will not deal as they have had no long term plan to secure the club itself,, nothing from SISU about stability on progression, its now at a complete stand off...

 

[wingy]

Was'nt the 13th supposed to be D Day,coincidentally the evening for the forum,expect lots of evil ACL/Council jargon tommorrow night ,along with a scheme for fan shares ,Ian neale for chairman etc.:thinking about: