Agree about social care. Whoever made the call not to direct the additional funding to social care immediately was crazy (I blame government and NHS/PHE for this). If it’s true that 10% of beds are blocked by people who don’t need to be in hospital surely that’s a far quicker win than chucking money into a clogged up system.
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (230 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
Agree about social care. Whoever made the call not to direct the additional funding to social care immediately was crazy (I blame government and NHS/PHE for this). If it’s true that 10% of beds are blocked by people who don’t need to be in hospital surely that’s a far quicker win than chucking money into a clogged up system.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I mean ultimately going back to first principles you either provide less healthcare (what would you cut? Arguable we need to add mental health which is bloody expensive to treat properly) or you need to start charging where we don’t already so rather than tax where people can afford it you end up with a lottery as to whether people can afford it or not and those that can’t coming back as emergency care.
There’s no magic solution where we provide the same level of care for less money. We don’t actually spend that much on healthcare compared to other countries and it’s not a market in the proper sense so I fail to see how any other funding system solves the issue. Willing to be convinced though.
There’s no magic solution where we provide the same level of care for less money. We don’t actually spend that much on healthcare compared to other countries and it’s not a market in the proper sense so I fail to see how any other funding system solves the issue. Willing to be convinced though.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Removing bursaries to coincide with that was an act of gross negligence.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Why are the private sectors there? What are they advising on a public service?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I read it’s now 1 in 7 beds are blocked by patients who can’t be discharged because the social care isn’t there for care in the community, so if it was 10% it’s rising.
We also have to point out that it’s not just the NHS that is feeling the strain due to the cuts in social healthcare budgets. All the emergency services and the prison service are too. They’re all taking up the slack from the failings in social care especially when it comes to things like mental health.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
We also need to think about the social determinants of health, which make our health spending per head even worse.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
What you're highlighting here is a problem with privatised social care.
There's an ever increasing number of people with complex and intensive care needs. That's a lower profit area so the companies who provide the social care steer clear and stay in the 'stack it high, sell it cheap' part of the care system where they can generate large amounts of revenue with relatively little work or cost.
This is the problem we had with my Dad, and he wasn't the only one waiting to be discharged from the hospital with the same issue. For over a month he was sat in hospital when he didn't need to be.
The care system as it currently is also has a huge administrative overhead. My Dad's care has always come under NHS, we've never needed to involve the council or anyone else, but in 12 months he's had at least 6 assessments. They aren't quick, they involved multiple NHS staff coming to the care home and a 2 hour plus assessment. I have to attend these so every time one takes place it's a day off work. The only reason I've been given for the need to do such regular assessments when he has a condition that will only deteriorate is due to privately run care homes charging the NHS for levels of care they aren’t providing and aren’t required.
Well it was Boris saying it but he'd have been guided by heh or Sunak.
When it eventually came in it was gone before you could blink by the two Summer nutters.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Was listening to Canadian radio (have it on for the hockey) and they were talking about a crisis in the Ontario healthcare system caused by years of Conservative austerity policies, sound familiar?
Except what they class as a crisis and unacceptable level of service seems to be very different than ours. They spoke of 30% of Ontarians reporting some difficulty in accessing aspects of the healthcare system and the point they were hammering is the data shows this isn't a result of a covid backlog, they have a winter crisis on average 1 in every 5 years
They class a winter crisis as doctors having to extend opening hours, A&E waiting times approaching 3.5 hours and ambulances on occasion having to wait 2 hours to offload patients
Couldn't help but think that their once in every five years winter crisis sounded like a level of service we can only dream of in the least demanding of winters
Except what they class as a crisis and unacceptable level of service seems to be very different than ours. They spoke of 30% of Ontarians reporting some difficulty in accessing aspects of the healthcare system and the point they were hammering is the data shows this isn't a result of a covid backlog, they have a winter crisis on average 1 in every 5 years
They class a winter crisis as doctors having to extend opening hours, A&E waiting times approaching 3.5 hours and ambulances on occasion having to wait 2 hours to offload patients
Couldn't help but think that their once in every five years winter crisis sounded like a level of service we can only dream of in the least demanding of winters
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
We tax things like smoking and alcohol quite heavily. For a similar reason I'd like to see many drugs legalised and heavily regulated and taxed.
The problem is that that money is not ringfenced for health services to treat the problems it causes. We could argue we should add tax onto things that cause pollution and poor air quality (like fossil fuel energy) but that would also lead to increased bills because the businesses won't absorb that cost, they'll just pass it on.
Some people talk about charging for some services, especially those that are self-inflicted, but where is the line drawn? If you break your leg playing football then that is arguably self inflicted as you choose to take the risk of playing. People would argue addictions are self-inflicted yet charging for that treatment would only make matters much worse.
If the argument being put forward is that increased population is adding stress on the system, then arguing to remove stuff like IVF which is a bit like turkeys not just voting for Christmas but paying for it, and instead use nudge theory and tax incentives to encourage childless couples to adopt, thus helping with the social care problems. But that in itself needs investment and probably quite a bit of mental health funding to support the couple.
On a similar mental health note, elective cosmetic surgery should be focused far more on mental health than surgery as the problem is in their heads and going under the knife is creating bigger risks with infection and scar tissue. But again, not cheap.
We need to increase scope on social care and mental health, both of which ultimately cause increased problems with primary care.
Trouble is we have a small section of society with a lot of power and influence who are obsessed with free market and competition. There will be quite a number of the Tory party who would advocate a US style insurance system which has been proven to only really benefit the insurers, providers and drug companies, not the actual people. One of them is our current Chancellor.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
This is the thing that people fail to take on board when they highlight the success of private medical care.
These businesses deliberately limit their remit to particular specialist areas and pick and choose their clients/patients to extract the largest profit. If someone has a difficult or costly condition they can refuse to take the person on. The NHS can't, which makes its performance look even worse.
It's why those that talk about the management/admin levels etc being so high in he NHS but when you consider the vast scope and scale of things it has to deal with it's probably quite lean.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
If true this is disgraceful
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Neither NHSE nor PHE (abolished and replaced by UKHSA a couple of years ago) have any role in distributing money for social care. Social care is paid for by unitary local authorities and either delivered themselves or more likely via a third party private company. I think you're right that the government makes misleading statements about the extent to which additional funding is immediately available. I suspect it'll go to to the DHSC first and will be subject to some form of request process for each Local Authority, it will take weeks to reach the frontline.
Yeah, I wasn’t clear, I’m aware they are separate funding pots, which is crazy, they both need to be joined up but that’s a different discussion. What I meant is that if I was the nhs, knowing I had 10%-15% beds blocked by people who were medically fit to be released, I would’ve been saying to the government to direct immediate additional funding* to social care, that will free up beds which in turn reduces waiting times for ambulances (and potentially critical patients)…and means nhs staff are caring for patients who need medical care
Noted about PHE, forgot that was disbanded/replaced
*originally due to come from the NIC increase which was supposed to be for social care but initially directed to NHS post covid.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The whole thing needs a rethink, for whatever reason no government wishes to properly join health and social care, the latest attempt is integrated care boards but it doesn't remove the statutory responsibilities.
Ultimately though, austerity and in particular the huge cuts to local authority budgets are to blame most here. Osborne should be pilloried.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Has anyone mentioned Trump MkII in Brazil? Another far-right conspiracy with no evidence looking to overturn democracy. Disgraceful.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Grant Shapps accuses working people of being very unfair to other working people. Angela Rayner saying what her boss refuses to
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Julie Hartley Brewer blamed remainers
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
When you said her I was convinced she’d have blamed Meghan Markle or Greta Thunberg.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
I wonder who the main beneficiaries of this 'incompetence' are?
news.sky.com
HMRC failing to collect £42bn in taxes - MPs say windfall could fix 'black hole' in UK's finances
The government has been accused of losing "staggering amounts" of money for public services "through incompetence" after a report found £42bn is owed to HMRC in unpaid taxes.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s not quite as easy as spend £1 in salary and receive £18 in increased revenue but it is true Boris wanted to lose between 10 and 30% of staffI wonder who the main beneficiaries of this 'incompetence' are?
HMRC failing to collect £42bn in taxes - MPs say windfall could fix 'black hole' in UK's finances
The government has been accused of losing "staggering amounts" of money for public services "through incompetence" after a report found £42bn is owed to HMRC in unpaid taxes.
I wonder who the main beneficiaries of this 'incompetence' are?
HMRC failing to collect £42bn in taxes - MPs say windfall could fix 'black hole' in UK's finances
The government has been accused of losing "staggering amounts" of money for public services "through incompetence" after a report found £42bn is owed to HMRC in unpaid taxes.
It doesn’t show a breakdown but I’m wondering how much of that is unpaid but included in payment plans over several future years. To be fair to HMRC, they were offering plans to businesses (and I bet individuals) over extended number of years due to covid and financial pressures caused by it. In another article they said
‘We take a supportive approach to taxpayers in debt and balance that with recovering debt from those who can afford it. A blanket approach would put thousands of people and businesses to the wall.’
If that’s the case I don’t think it’s an unreasonable approach
Ps the rest of its probably owed by rugby clubs
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Kin ell.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Someone said on the radio yesterday, no idea who it was, that they don't care about public services because they don't use public services
Sunak flew to Leeds on a private jet when the train would have actually got him there quicker, after refusing to say if he had private healthcare turns out his GP is £150 per appointment
The real mystery is why people who do need those services keep voting for them
Andrew Bridgen MP on social media comparing the vaccine rollout to the Holocaust. Wonder if Sunak will be asked about that - would be an….interesting policy position for the Tories to adopt. (I won’t link the post in case someone agrees)
Update: He’s had the whip removed
Update: He’s had the whip removed
Last edited:
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Remember the 'Facebook Tax' for tech giants that after a cosy chat with the exec's the government said Facebook would be exempt from?I wonder who the main beneficiaries of this 'incompetence' are?
HMRC failing to collect £42bn in taxes - MPs say windfall could fix 'black hole' in UK's finances
The government has been accused of losing "staggering amounts" of money for public services "through incompetence" after a report found £42bn is owed to HMRC in unpaid taxes.
It's very much deliberate using the right wing economics that rich people making more money is good for everyone cos it creates jobs (even though that's the same argument Truss used and it tanked the economy).
Instead focus on getting someone who's claimed £20k fraudulently locked up, even though it probably costs more that the amount claimed to do so, because it makes them look tough and keeps the narrative to people on benefits are scroungers and crooks.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
1nilandwe...
Well-Known Member
Hard to think that he didn't know what he was doing.
Must be angling for a gig as some sort of alt-right, dog-whistle, bullshit merchant.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Just following the Matt Le Tissier model. There will always be some GB News slot for someone ‘famous’ willing to spout right wing nonsense