Sarah Everard (2 Viewers)

[chiefdave]

The prison system is just another area that’s had to take up the slack from austerity and specifically cuts to social care. People with mental health issues lost support services and in many cases that has led to offending and prison. That could be anything from people with addiction issues to people with the most severe mental health issues. It’s the hospitals and the prisons that have had to take up the slack.

my ex used to work with young people who had severe mental health issues. the service she was part of had such good results people came from around the world to observe and take the blueprint back to other countries. But it was very intensive one to one treatment which of course meant it was expensive

which meant that when Cameron did his not a top down reorganisation of the NHS that was a top down reorganisation / cutting every departments budget the service got merged in with others and basically disappeared

wasn't long before there were some very serious crimes committed by people who would previously have been part of the service. Mental health services were then blamed for their 'failure'

 

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[shmmeee]

my ex used to work with young people who had severe mental health issues. the service she was part of had such good results people came from around the world to observe and take the blueprint back to other countries. But it was very intensive one to one treatment which of course meant it was expensive

which meant that when Cameron did his not a top down reorganisation of the NHS that was a top down reorganisation / cutting every departments budget the service got merged in with others and basically disappeared

wasn't long before there were some very serious crimes committed by people who would previously have been part of the service. Mental health services were then blamed for their 'failure'

This sort of stuff is expensive. You can seriously reduce crime or you can seriously reduce taxes. You can’t do both.

 

[chiefdave]

This sort of stuff is expensive. You can seriously reduce crime or you can seriously reduce taxes. You can’t do both.

the interesting thing was that all the studies showed that over a lifetime the treatment would work out a lot cheaper than the alternatives, a life time of medication and regular stays in hospital and of course even more if and when they end up in prison

But of course governments don't think in life times they think in parliament cycles and how much they're going to spending before the next election

 

[skybluetony176]

This sort of stuff is expensive. You can seriously reduce crime or you can seriously reduce taxes. You can’t do both.

Cameron didn’t even do it to reduce tax though. He did it through an mis-jointed ideology to reduce the deficit. It failed in every sense in that it didn’t reduce the deficit and in the end a penny pinched here inevitably meant a pound spent somewhere else. For instance the government announced in the summer a plan to expand accommodation in prisons by 3000 places, IIRC it was going to cost £500M just in building new accommodation blocks, not even a new prison/prisons. You’ve then got the cost of staffing, maintenance etc etc. Might just actually be cheaper to give the budget for building staffing and maintaining them extra places in the prison system to the social care budget to tackle mental health and help lower the prison population.

 

[rob9872]

I've been reading about jails being overcrowded for as long as I can remember. Certainly it was newsworthy throughout the 80s. I dont know how accurate my throwaway guestimates are but I'd guess 90% of the crime is committed by 10% of criminals. These are going to go in and out of the system for life and I believe that they dont care because prison is normal and easy for them.

I'm sure my views you'll say are outdated that there needs to be more of a deterrent with longer sentences and less privilege's inside that mean they really dont want to go back there. It might be low key or petty crimes, but keeping those off the streets longer immediately gives more resource for the police not weighed down solving more petty crime and clogging up the court system, enabling them to spend more time tackling more serious crime.

The two have to be related as I see it and if that means we need more prisons, then building those is an industry I see as worthwhile. The funds from depriving current prisoners of basic items would go some way towards funding new ones as would the saving in policing or having to solve and deal with those crimes.

I know this is hardly groundbreaking revelation and I'm sure someone in usual clan will pull it apart to say "ooh look at that country where it proves longer sentences dont work" will be along shortly, but if they dont work then keep extending them until we find a sentence that does.

 

[shmmeee]

I've been reading about jails being overcrowded for as long as I can remember. Certainly it was newsworthy throughout the 80s. I dont know how accurate my throwaway guestimates are but I'd guess 90% of the crime is committed by 10% of criminals. These are going to go in and out of the system for life and I believe that they dont care because prison is normal and easy for them.

I'm sure my views you'll say are outdated that there needs to be more of a deterrent with longer sentences and less privilege's inside that mean they really dont want to go back there. It might be low key or petty crimes, but keeping those off the streets longer immediately gives more resource for the police not weighed down solving more petty crime and clogging up the court system, enabling them to spend more time tackling more serious crime.

The two have to be related as I see it and if that means we need more prisons, then building those is an industry I see as worthwhile. The funds from depriving current prisoners of basic items would go some way towards funding new ones as would the saving in policing or having to solve and deal with those crimes.

I know this is hardly groundbreaking revelation and I'm sure someone in usual clan will pull it apart to say "ooh look at that country where it proves longer sentences dont work" will be along shortly, but if they dont work then keep extending them until we find a sentence that does.

Thing is deterrent doesn’t work. Criminals all think they’ll be the one that doesn’t get caught.

You’re pretty spot on about overcrowding BTW:

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Build more prisons.

No desire to spend any more money and certainly can’t afford to staff them
Also there are some expansions taking place but just far too slow

 

[chiefdave]

doing a bit of googling seems we have one of the highest prisoner rates in Europe, with only Russia and Turkey higher, one of the highest suicide rates and a high reoffending rate

whatever the plan is doesn't sound like its working

 

[shmmeee]

What happened in England around 1990?

 

[Skybluefaz]

I've been reading about jails being overcrowded for as long as I can remember. Certainly it was newsworthy throughout the 80s. I dont know how accurate my throwaway guestimates are but I'd guess 90% of the crime is committed by 10% of criminals. These are going to go in and out of the system for life and I believe that they dont care because prison is normal and easy for them.

I'm sure my views you'll say are outdated that there needs to be more of a deterrent with longer sentences and less privilege's inside that mean they really dont want to go back there. It might be low key or petty crimes, but keeping those off the streets longer immediately gives more resource for the police not weighed down solving more petty crime and clogging up the court system, enabling them to spend more time tackling more serious crime.

The two have to be related as I see it and if that means we need more prisons, then building those is an industry I see as worthwhile. The funds from depriving current prisoners of basic items would go some way towards funding new ones as would the saving in policing or having to solve and deal with those crimes.

I know this is hardly groundbreaking revelation and I'm sure someone in usual clan will pull it apart to say "ooh look at that country where it proves longer sentences dont work" will be along shortly, but if they dont work then keep extending them until we find a sentence that does.

You said longer sentences for rape would lead to more murdering the other day. So what is it? Or will shoplifters be in the nick as long as rapists?

Did you ever find the report that backed up that claim btw?

 

[rob9872]

You said longer sentences for rape would lead to more murdering the other day. So what is it? Or will shoplifters be in the nick as long as rapists?

Did you ever find the report that backed up that claim btw?

What I said was that if the rape was the same sentence as the murder then I'm sure there would be more murders as if the victim couldnt speak they were less likely to be caught. Surely you can see that's rational? What I would do is extend both by making sure that all murders were whole life terms. You could then easily extend rape terms to 10/15 years without that same risk.

 

[Grendel]

doing a bit of googling seems we have one of the highest prisoner rates in Europe, with only Russia and Turkey higher, one of the highest suicide rates and a high reoffending rate

whatever the plan is doesn't sound like its working

I guess most of the world need to adopt the India model of peace and harmony

Prison population rate

Number of prisoners per 100,000 people. Shown is data for 2018 or the latest available data before 2018.

ourworldindata.org

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I've been reading about jails being overcrowded for as long as I can remember. Certainly it was newsworthy throughout the 80s. I dont know how accurate my throwaway guestimates are but I'd guess 90% of the crime is committed by 10% of criminals. These are going to go in and out of the system for life and I believe that they dont care because prison is normal and easy for them.

I'm sure my views you'll say are outdated that there needs to be more of a deterrent with longer sentences and less privilege's inside that mean they really dont want to go back there. It might be low key or petty crimes, but keeping those off the streets longer immediately gives more resource for the police not weighed down solving more petty crime and clogging up the court system, enabling them to spend more time tackling more serious crime.

The two have to be related as I see it and if that means we need more prisons, then building those is an industry I see as worthwhile. The funds from depriving current prisoners of basic items would go some way towards funding new ones as would the saving in policing or having to solve and deal with those crimes.

I know this is hardly groundbreaking revelation and I'm sure someone in usual clan will pull it apart to say "ooh look at that country where it proves longer sentences dont work" will be along shortly, but if they dont work then keep extending them until we find a sentence that does.

What privileges would you remove? Do you have any understanding of what a day in prison is like?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

What I said was that if the rape was the same sentence as the murder then I'm sure there would be more murders as if the victim couldnt speak they were less likely to be caught. Surely you can see that's rational? What I would do is extend both by making sure that all murders were whole life terms. You could then easily extend rape terms to 10/15 years without that same risk.

What is a whole life term? Rest of their life? So they’d die in prison? Just asking for the rationale

 

[rob9872]

What is a whole life term? Rest of their life? So they’d die in prison? Just asking for the rationale

Yep

 

[rob9872]

What privileges would you remove? Do you have any understanding of what a day in prison is like?

Tv, games, recreation time.

Basic diet no treats no rewards, fo your sentence and never want to come back.

Happy to keep the remuneration they earn for menial work to help them start over when they're out, which should be something they look forward to.

Yes I understand what a day is like.

 

[skybluetony176]

What I said was that if the rape was the same sentence as the murder then I'm sure there would be more murders as if the victim couldnt speak they were less likely to be caught. Surely you can see that's rational? What I would do is extend both by making sure that all murders were whole life terms. You could then easily extend rape terms to 10/15 years without that same risk.

You do understand that when the police discover the body of a dead woman they can very quickly and easily determine if she’s been raped or not. Killing her isn’t going to stop the police working out that she’s been raped.

 

[skybluetony176]

Tv, games, recreation time.

Basic diet no treats no rewards, fo your sentence and never want to come back.

Happy to keep the remuneration they earn for menial work to help them start over when they're out, which should be something they look forward to.

Yes I understand what a day is like.

So what if you have addiction issues and ended up in prison as you couldn’t hold down a job due to your addiction so turned to crime to feed your addiction, go inside where you will have help with your addiction, come out where you’re unlikely to get help with your addiction, without this support you return to your old ways, once again turn to crime to feed your addiction with the obvious consequence of returning to prison?

People don’t usually leave prison with the intention of returning.

 

[rob9872]

You do understand that when the police discover the body of a dead woman they can very quickly and easily determine if she’s been raped or not. Killing her isn’t going to stop the police working out that she’s been raped.

Of course they can but my point was it stops her describing her attacker in the absence of dna or other evidence.

 

[rob9872]

So what if you have addiction issues and ended up in prison as you couldn’t hold down a job due to your addiction so turned to crime to feed your addiction, go inside where you will have help with your addiction, come out where you’re unlikely to get help with your addiction, without this support you return to your old ways, once again turn to crime to feed your addiction with the obvious consequence of returning to prison?

People don’t usually leave prison with the intention of returning.

Occupational Hazard. They'll mostly go back anyhow. Despite all the help, huge proportion of reoffenders

 

[clint van damme]

What I said was that if the rape was the same sentence as the murder then I'm sure there would be more murders as if the victim couldnt speak they were less likely to be caught. Surely you can see that's rational? What I would do is extend both by making sure that all murders were whole life terms. You could then easily extend rape terms to 10/15 years without that same risk.

But would that prevent crimes happening?
Being more draconian might make you and the Daily Mail set feel better but wouldn't putting some thought and effort into prevention and making stopping crimes happening on the first place be better?

Improving mental health services would be a sure fire way to start but all mental health services have experienced for the last decade is austerity and cuts..

Of course not eryone who perpetrates an horrific crime has an underlying mental health issue but enough do that with the right help a lot of crimes could be prevented.

There are numerous studies to back this up.

 

[clint van damme]

Occupational Hazard. They'll mostly go back anyhow. Despite all the help, huge proportion of reoffenders

All what help?

 

[skybluetony176]

Of course they can but my point was it stops her describing her attacker in the absence of dna or other evidence.

There’s always DNA, there’s always CCTV, there’s always phone data. They had the guy who killed Sarah Everard in custody and were ready to charge him before they’d even discovered her body. They used her phone data and CCTV from a known route she’d be walking to identify the hired car, from that they they found who hired it and then forensics painted the picture of what happened in the car. They knew what they were dealing with before they even knew where her body was.

 

[rob9872]

There’s always DNA, there’s always CCTV, there’s always phone data. They had the guy who killed Sarah Everard in custody and were ready to charge him before they’d even discovered her body. They used her phone data and CCTV from a known route she’d be walking to identify the hired car, from that they they found who hired it and then forensics painted the picture of what happened in the car. They knew what they were dealing with before they even new where her body was.

Brilliant. Tony's solved all crime forever because we have cctv and dna. Looks like we can afford more police cuts

 

[Grendel]

But would that prevent crimes happening?
Being more draconian might make you and the Daily Mail set feel better but wouldn't putting some thought and effort into prevention and making stopping crimes happening on the first place be better?

Improving mental health services would be a sure fire way to start but all mental health services have experienced for the last decade is austerity and cuts..

Of course not eryone who perpetrates an horrific crime has an underlying mental health issue but enough do that with the right help a lot of crimes could be prevented.

There are numerous studies to back this up.

There are many ways you ban spin a debate. For density of population doesn’t Singapore have a very low crime rate? Also Japan?

 

[rob9872]

But would that prevent crimes happening?
Being more draconian might make you and the Daily Mail set feel better but wouldn't putting some thought and effort into prevention and making stopping crimes happening on the first place be better?

Improving mental health services would be a sure fire way to start but all mental health services have experienced for the last decade is austerity and cuts..

Of course not eryone who perpetrates an horrific crime has an underlying mental health issue but enough do that with the right help a lot of crimes could be prevented.

There are numerous studies to back this up.

They're not mutually exclusive. You can put time and resources into prevention whilst still giving out 'draconian' (proportionate) sentences

 

[skybluetony176]

But would that prevent crimes happening?
Being more draconian might make you and the Daily Mail set feel better but wouldn't putting some thought and effort into prevention and making stopping crimes happening on the first place be better?

Improving mental health services would be a sure fire way to start but all mental health services have experienced for the last decade is austerity and cuts..

Of course not eryone who perpetrates an horrific crime has an underlying mental health issue but enough do that with the right help a lot of crimes could be prevented.

There are numerous studies to back this up.

Educating men from a young age to respect women and not idolise men like Andrew Tate would be a good starting point.

He’s been accused of stalking school girls online in Romania now. Someone on here described him as someone paying the price for sticking his head above the parapet when he got arrested. What a fucked up world we live in when other “men” find it so easy to justify his behaviour.

 

[chiefdave]

Of course they can but my point was it stops her describing her attacker in the absence of dna or other evidence.

what are the conviction rates for rape and murder? Wouldn't murdering someone after a rape increase the chances of being caught?

 

[chiefdave]

Occupational Hazard. They'll mostly go back anyhow. Despite all the help, huge proportion of reoffenders

What is your aim here? You're saying going to prison isn't solving the problem but people should be in prison for longer, not sure how that helps. Or are you saying we should forget rehabilitation and its just various degrees of punishment. Although you then say prison isn't a punishment and they're living it up with entertainment and meals provided

 

[Grendel]

what are the conviction rates for rape and murder? Wouldn't murdering someone after a rape increase the chances of being caught?

Singapore is one of the safest places in tbe world to walk the streets. Why?

 

[rob9872]

what are the conviction rates for rape and murder? Wouldn't murdering someone after a rape increase the chances of being caught?

No idea Dave, just something I read, mentioned and now scrutinised. I can see the misplaced logic in why it might happen though which is point I was making. Surely just 1 additional murder is 1 too many?

 

[clint van damme]

There are many ways you ban spin a debate. For density of population doesn’t Singapore have a very low crime rate? Also Japan?

Yes they do. Not just lowcrime rates but very low murder rates.And so does Hong Kong which doesn't have the death penalty.
America has the death penalty and some of the states that use it most have the highest murder rates.
It's not a proven deterrent. It might make the frothing mob feel better but I think more should be done to prevent crimes taking place.
Of course America could do this over night if they amended their ludicrous gun laws which they won't.

 

[rob9872]

What is your aim here? You're saying going to prison isn't solving the problem but people should be in prison for longer, not sure how that helps. Or are you saying we should forget rehabilitation and its just various degrees of punishment. Although you then say prison isn't a punishment and they're living it up with entertainment and meals provided

I'm saying prison as it stands isn't enough punishment . Make it harder, make it longer, less willingness to risk reoffending and going back.

 

[skybluetony176]

Brilliant. Tony's solved all crime forever because we have cctv and dna. Looks like we can afford more police cuts

Do you ever stop and think before you post? Who do you think trawls through the CCTV, phone data etc? Police officers by any chance? By the way when policing budgets get cut it’s not just officers on the street it’s also things like forensics. The rise in cases getting to court over the last ten years without completed forensic evidence for the prosecution due to budget cuts has skyrocketed.

 

[Grendel]

Yes they do. Not just lowcrime rates but very low murder rates.And so does Hong Kong which doesn't have the death penalty.
America has the death penalty and some of the states that use it most have the highest murder rates.
It's not a proven deterrent. It might make the frothing mob feel better but I think more should be done to prevent crimes taking place.
Of course America could do this over night if they amended their ludicrous gun laws which they won't.

im not even taking death penalty but the Singapore system is the exact opposite of what @Sky Blue Pete advocates and it’s the safest place I have ever visited