Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Starmer expected to drop Labour’s commitment to free university tuition. Change you can get behind!
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (59 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Didn’t realise they’d made that commitment
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
2017 Manifesto
2019 Manifesto
Starmer’s 10 Pledges.
Of course he was going to cut it. Can’t be giving hope to the youngsters.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Oops
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
TBF if it was unworkable in 2010 when the Lib Dem’s had to drop it entering the coalition then it’s definitely unworkable now. We’re in a far bigger mess as a country now than we were then. I’m behind the policy in principle not least because I have a 16 and 14 year old but the reality is school education needs fixing before free university education, the NHS needs fixing before free university education, social care needs fixing before… you get the point. I suspect free university education isn’t going to be a vote winner and it certainly isn’t a priority for most people, even if they are behind it in principle.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
It’s a vote winner for the younger generation
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
It’s pretty clear neither party gives a stuff about young people or probably most people under 40 or 50
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
Investing in our young people is a better use of resources than nearly everything. That doesn’t necessarily have to be University, as id like to see a comprehensive apprenticeship or vocational offer free at point of access.
Starmer letting down the future voting bloc is another masterstroke on his part.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I keep hearing that when I get older I’ll vote Tory. Not had the urge yet
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
And it’s definitely something we should be aiming for. But right now I’d rather they prioritise teachers pay so my 14 year old was in school today. Or recognise that certain subjects such as IT should be recognised on it’s own so the pay reflects the skill set meaning both my 14 and 16 year olds only have 1 IT teacher in a school year so there’s a consistency in their education.
The stark fact is we need to sort out schools first to get our children a better education in the first place meaning more are likely to get a university education even if that means paying for it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
They’re being let down at school age first. Let’s prioritise that first is all I’m saying.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
This. Uni fees I’m not so bothered about, especially as I’ve had to pay them
they’re mostly subsidies for middle class kids, but there needs to be a much better offer all round especially after the mess the Tories have made of the apprenticeship system.Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
I’m taking a considerable pay cut to leave the profession at the end of the term. They will also need to sort out the crap working conditions on top of the pay which to be quite honest still allows a reasonable middle class lifestyle once you get up the payscale.
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
Don’t really see the value in free university education. Is it really depriving skilled young people the chance to go? And repayments are effectively a ‘higher education tax’ rather than standard loan repayments. I feel that, ironically, the education around this is lacking.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
free higher education is a nice idea but it's way down the list of things labour need to act on
SBAndy
Well-Known Member
But they still have to pay up. Ok they’ll forego the interest but a large swathe of students will have a portion of their loan written off anyway.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
As someone due to finish paying next year I have little sympathy for the “think of the English grads who got shit jobs” line TBH.
And no they don’t have to pay up, their parents do. Then they don’t get their wages reduced.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Did you get something ??
rob9872
Well-Known Member
The mistake (imo) was made a generation ago and now we have too many people in too many universities with targets and funding levels to achieve, which was never their purpose.
It dilutes the value of their achievement without enough of the right calibre degree entry jobs to go round. It was right that it shouldn't be just for the elite, although (again imo) it should be reserved for genuine high achievers over average students who simply work hard. I still think many would be better off starting a career earlier without being saddled with debt.
We are where we are, I do realise we can't turn back the clock, but an overhaul to what can be studied where and turn some of them into vocational centres of excellence or a tiered system similar to the old Polytechnic divide shouldn't be impossible if there is an appetite to.
It dilutes the value of their achievement without enough of the right calibre degree entry jobs to go round. It was right that it shouldn't be just for the elite, although (again imo) it should be reserved for genuine high achievers over average students who simply work hard. I still think many would be better off starting a career earlier without being saddled with debt.
We are where we are, I do realise we can't turn back the clock, but an overhaul to what can be studied where and turn some of them into vocational centres of excellence or a tiered system similar to the old Polytechnic divide shouldn't be impossible if there is an appetite to.
I went to a top 10 uni, but wish I hadn't bothered. For me personally it was not worth the debt, and what I do now has no relevance to my degree.
My daughter is only 2, so a long way off uni yet! But if she were 18 right now I think I'd be advising her not to go, unless she had a very specific degree in mind for a very specific career.
My daughter is only 2, so a long way off uni yet! But if she were 18 right now I think I'd be advising her not to go, unless she had a very specific degree in mind for a very specific career.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Ditching that policy is what has led to the Lib Dems being a nothing.
And also led to Brexit...
duffer
Well-Known Member
It's interesting that so many countries don't seem to struggle to offer free university education (partial list linked to below).
This isn't an either/or thing, imho. We don't need to dilute funding to other areas of education or the NHS to do it, it is (as with most elements of public spending) a political choice. I'd suggest that a better educated populace, and not just in STEM subjects, is better for the country as a whole. Additionally, the provision of that education in itself drives employment in all other sectors of the economy.
I know something that's often been assumed is that having a student loan won't impact a person's ability to get a mortgage. It absolutely will - net monthly income with appropriate deductions for student loans is a key decision in affordability calculations.
As a vague aside, if you study until you're 21, you've still got another 47 years of productive, tax-paying work ahead to look forward to. If you earn more money because you're better educated, you'll end up paying back the government in additional taxation anyway!
www.investopedia.com
This isn't an either/or thing, imho. We don't need to dilute funding to other areas of education or the NHS to do it, it is (as with most elements of public spending) a political choice. I'd suggest that a better educated populace, and not just in STEM subjects, is better for the country as a whole. Additionally, the provision of that education in itself drives employment in all other sectors of the economy.
I know something that's often been assumed is that having a student loan won't impact a person's ability to get a mortgage. It absolutely will - net monthly income with appropriate deductions for student loans is a key decision in affordability calculations.
As a vague aside, if you study until you're 21, you've still got another 47 years of productive, tax-paying work ahead to look forward to. If you earn more money because you're better educated, you'll end up paying back the government in additional taxation anyway!
6 European Countries With Free College Tuition
Some countries in Europe, such as Norway, Finland, and Germany, provide free or low-cost university education for all students.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Fucking hell, I agree!
Some of the targets to get your funding are bloody stupid too. They have to achieve completion rates on their courses, which means no matter how often somebody plagiarises or draws dinosaurs saying I love Morrisey, YOU SHOULD TOO!!! on their exam paper, they're given chance after chance to re-sit, so the uni doesn't lose its funding.
And sometimes that's just cruel on the student, who sometimes even needs just a year or two to mature a bit and decide what they *really* want to do, rather than being pushed through an institution whose priority is making money rather than students' welfare.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Gosh - it's almost like you and Rob are saying that making education market-driven was a bad idea.
rob9872
Well-Known Member
The caveat to that is that it doesn't necessarily increase their total pot. Businesses will have a wage structure and so many jobs paying eg the 40% rate. That doesn't increase because of the amount of people with a degree, but because of the level of job required.As a vague aside, if you study until you're 21, you've still got another 47 years of productive, tax-paying work ahead to look forward to. If you earn more money because you're better educated, you'll end up paying back the government in additional taxation anyway!
6 European Countries With Free College Tuition
Some countries in Europe, such as Norway, Finland, and Germany, provide free or low-cost university education for all students.
As an example I didn't go to university yet I pay 40% tax. The proposed system might mean that someone else gets the job instead of me, but the total contribution is the same as there is only one person required for my job.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Funny that!Gosh - it's almost like you and Rob are saying that making education market-driven was a bad idea.
It's all fucked up, isn't it. And you're quite right, a balanced society can value learning for learning's sake, not just for commercial power, and *all* subjects have a merit.
If done well.
Too many substandard courses to earn money for universities though, that have no benefit. A particular current bugbear of mine are the industry-linked courses who in days gone by used to tailor the number admitted roughly accoring to predicted vacancies, but now take anybody for the cash - means there's a glut of people sold a career specific postgrad course who still can't get a job in said career!
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Going to do a doctorate then reapply to the scientific jobs I can’t get at the moment as a teacher.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I’m sorry mate.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Probably better to not commit to it in the first place only to renege on it once in power.
duffer
Well-Known Member
Politely, I think you're just looking at an individual situation there. If you're asking whether there are 'poor' degrees out there, I'd say probably, and if you're saying does every job need a degree I'd say definitely not.
However, I think my contention would be that a broadly better educated (and perhaps more broadly educated) society would tend to be higher skilled, more productive, and hence generally higher paid. But it's not just about the money, it's also about where we want to be as a country culturally as well as financially.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Starmers got bigger more basic issues anyway. Refusing to commit to higher taxes for the wealthiest in interviews this morning. I’d say that will do him more damage at the polls than dropping a previous election pledge to drop tuition fees that didn’t win them an election. If ever there was a time that taxing the wealthiest would be popular amongst all the working classes it’s now.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Starmer wasn’t fab he’s too wordy
He has my problem
duffer
Well-Known Member
Frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if Starmer's got a picture of Thatcher hanging in his office.