CET: Men at the top must take responsibility for Coventry City's failure (8 Viewers)

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

So you don't define failure in terms of improved or worsened results then?

Because he was introduced to help in the transfer market. On that basis he failed.

Your reasoning actually defeats your prime argument. If there was an improvement in points haul from the two players introduced, then there would have been a greater improvement with more players! Which is exactly what Forest, Bristol and Millwall saw.

On that basis, his failure to match his peers was central in our relegation, don't you think?

 

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[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

And this summer he backed Thorn to the hilt to deliver the players he wanted.

No he didn't. We missed out on our prime two targets as we were in a situation of embargo

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Waggot clearly does not have the Midas touch and I fail to see what he has brought to and is now bringing to the club other than a fistfull of cock-ups - Fisher if you need some football brains to do your job then please get someone else in for al lour sakes

Care to elaborate? He simply brought the players to the club who Thorn wanted.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No he didn't. We missed out on our prime two targets as we were in a situation of embargo

Which was Fisher's doing. Care to ignore the players who were signed?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I've always been of the opinion that Thorn 'wasn't helped' but also that he 'was shit' so it's swings and roundabouts really.

You're entitled to your opinion on Thorn and I respect that. Just as I am glad that you can see culpability that lies with people who now sit pious in judgement

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Which was Fisher's doing. Care to ignore the players who were signed?

I think it's very selective to separate Fisher and Waggott. Insomuch as if you wish to do so, it's to agree that one failed in giving free reign to the market and the other was hand-tied until out of embargo. Which I wouldn't mind except Waggott didn't afford Thorn any grace for having missed out the targets he asked to be secured, so he doesn't deserve any latitude himself.

The balance of the additions - post embargo - a good investment by number, I agree

 

[skyblueman]

Care to elaborate? He simply brought the players to the club who Thorn wanted.

He didn't recognise the need for bringing in players last year - cost us our championship status

He should have got rid of Thorn at the end of last season not allow him to sign a lot of new players

He didn't work hard enough to get embargo lifted to bring in a couple of key targets

He got rid of Thorn after all that after just 3 games

He must have come up with or agreed the bonus fiasco

He dawdled for weeks over the new manager appointment whilst our team died on the pitch

I mean what else is he there for???

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I think it's very selective to separate Fisher and Waggott. Insomuch as if you wish to do so, it's to agree that one failed in giving free reign to the market and the other was hand-tied until out of embargo. Which I wouldn't mind except Waggott didn't afford Thorn any grace for having missed out the targets he asked to be secured, so he doesn't deserve any latitude himself.

The balance of the additions - post embargo - a good investment by number, I agree

I'd argue back that Waggott himself is working under the constraints given to him by Fisher who in turn has his funding set by SISU. People have criticised the board for not sacking Thorn early enough-an indictment on his management enough. However he is also criticised for 'not backing Thorn in the summer' by some, and criticised for backing him then sacking him by others-it doesn't make much sense to me for Waggott to be pinned down for blame when his arrival on the scene is pretty recent compared to certain other people.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

He didn't recognise the need for bringing in players last year - cost us our championship status

He should have got rid of Thorn at the end of last season not allow him to sign a lot of new players

He didn't work hard enough to get embargo lifted to bring in a couple of key targets

He got rid of Thorn after all that after just 3 games

He must have come up with or agreed the bonus fiasco

He dawdled for weeks over the new manager appointment whilst our team died on the pitch

I mean what else is he there for???

He arrived in January-does the Orange's disastrous tenure not get factored in prior to this? He was not responsible for the filing of accounts (this was Fisher's remit as chairman), and indeed Fisher seems to have been left out of this completely by your reckoning.

 

[dadgad]

He arrived in January-does the Orange's disastrous tenure not get factored in prior to this? He was not responsible for the filing of accounts (this was Fisher's remit as chairman), and indeed Fisher seems to have been left out of this completely by your reckoning.

If you want to find out why an organisation - ANY organisation - is going tits up you start by looking at the chief and not the indians. Last year you repeatedly chose to scrutinise the actions of the indian while ignoring the various roles of a succession of incompetent chiefs. Now, that AT has gone you begin to scratch your head about what was really going on at the club, who calls the shots, makes the decisions, etc.:facepalm:
Oh well......

 

[lordsummerisle]

Everybody keeps banging on about missing this Collins kid to Swindon because of the embargo.

I don't think he has managed to score a goal in the League yet.

 

[covcity4life]

Everybody keeps banging on about missing this Collins kid to Swindon because of the embargo.

I don't think he has managed to score a goal in the League yet.

maybe hes a c**t or a twat?

he has scored as far as i am aware,we would probably be stronger with him but i doubt its made a big difference

 

[lordsummerisle]

maybe hes a c**t or a twat?

he has scored as far as i am aware,we would probably be stronger with him but i doubt its made a big difference

You are not aware though are you?

He has yet to score a League goal for Swindon.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I'd argue back that Waggott himself is working under the constraints given to him by Fisher who in turn has his funding set by SISU. People have criticised the board for not sacking Thorn early enough-an indictment on his management enough. However he is also criticised for 'not backing Thorn in the summer' by some, and criticised for backing him then sacking him by others-it doesn't make much sense to me for Waggott to be pinned down for blame when his arrival on the scene is pretty recent compared to certain other people.

Let me help you out with regards Waggott. Grenduffy can respond to this where I've posted it before, but this being a very brief précis. He was CEO of Charlton, in his first full season, 08-09 I recall they were relegated. Ahead of that season, there was talk about not signing as many players as their peers (sound familiar?). In his next season, they got to the play-offs but didn't go back up, this being in League One. As such he was relieved of his duties as part of a 'cost-cutting' measure. They kept him on to help in the transfer market and use his contacts. Again, sound familiar? With his ' signings' they slipped down to 13th and they dispensed with his unique skills.

In comes his old mate Fisher. He's here to 'help' Thorn in the crucial January window and loan opportunity on a 'consultancy part time basis'. We sell our leading scorer and bring in two youth players whilst our relegation contemporaries bring in 3, 4 or 5 times that number. They pull away and we go down. Incidentally, crossing his old club Charlton as now without Waggott they go back up.

He's awarded the Director of Football role?!? He can't sign the players he's asked to by Thorn 'cause his old mate Fisher can't persuade their employer to commit to fund us now we're down and we're in embargo. When we're out of embargo, he signs plenty of players and states that Thorn will be given a 'their support' ( and I quote there verbatim) as he was unduly effected by off-the-field influences last season.

After 3 unbeaten league games, he and Fisher - the old double act - sack Thorn; then take 4 games to appoint what the local paper says is their second choice after their chosen candidate turned them down.

Waggott? Fisher? Two peas in a pod, with neither accepting any culpability for where we now are.

Thorn, crap manager? Who knows? Maybe. Waggott and Fisher free from blame? Do me a favour

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Everybody keeps banging on about missing this Collins kid to Swindon because of the embargo.

I don't think he has managed to score a goal in the League yet.

If my auntie was my uncle and all. The fact is they couldn't deliver what was asked of them

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

If you want to find out why an organisation - ANY organisation - is going tits up you start by looking at the chief and not the indians. Last year you repeatedly chose to scrutinise the actions of the indian while ignoring the various roles of a succession of incompetent chiefs. Now, that AT has gone you begin to scratch your head about what was really going on at the club, who calls the shots, makes the decisions, etc.:facepalm:
Oh well......

No. I, and many others, thought that Thorn underachieved despite the constraints which we all recognised-and while we talk about chiefs and Indians, that analogy doesn't apply when the ultimate 'chief' is Joy Seppala who has had very little input to date. When considering the footballing side of things with your comparison, the players are blameless whilst the manager should be shouldering responsibility-it just isn't as black and white as that. Thorn had a weakened squad, there's no denying that, but it became such an easy excuse for performances below par even for that squad.

 

[skyblueman]

He arrived in January-does the Orange's disastrous tenure not get factored in prior to this? He was not responsible for the filing of accounts (this was Fisher's remit as chairman), and indeed Fisher seems to have been left out of this completely by your reckoning.

Forget what went on before Fisher - I'm focusing on how Waggot has operated since Fisher came in and brought him here - no Waggot is not responsible for filing the accounts I agree - BUT did he really impress upon his boss, Fisher, the absolute need to do this so as to get the embargo lifted - and if he did then did Fisher in turn impress upon SISU the need to provide assurances the losses would be covered so as to get them signed off as a viable concern

I suspect Waggot did not make Fisher understand the urgency of the situation and it's negative affects on the football side of things - I suspect he didn't think it was that important and we still had time

Between them they should have got SISU to validate the accounts sooner and they did not either because they didn't think it was that critical or they couldn't get SISU to do it. Either way it's no way to run the club

 

[skyblueman]

and you can't just say Fisher & co are ok because the last guy was totally crap

less crappy is still crappy and that's not ok

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Let me help you out with regards Waggott. Grenduffy can respond to this where I've posted it before, but this being a very brief précis. He was CEO of Charlton, in his first full season, 08-09 I recall they were relegated. Ahead of that season, there was talk about not signing as many players as their peers (sound familiar?). In his next season, they got to the play-offs but didn't go back up, this being in League One. As such he was relieved of his duties as part of a 'cost-cutting' measure. They kept him on to help in the transfer market and use his contacts. Again, sound familiar? With his ' signings' they slipped down to 13th and they dispensed with his unique skills.

In comes his old mate Fisher. He's here to 'help' Thorn in the crucial January window and loan opportunity on a 'consultancy part time basis'. We sell our leading scorer and bring in two youth players whilst our relegation contemporaries bring in 3, 4 or 5 times that number. They pull away and we go down. Incidentally, crossing his old club Charlton as now without Waggott they go back up.

He's awarded the Director of Football role?!? He can't sign the players he's asked to by Thorn 'cause his old mate Fisher can't persuade their employer to commit to fund us now we're down and we're in embargo. When we're out of embargo, he signs plenty of players and states that Thorn will be given a 'their support' ( and I quote there verbatim) as he was unduly effected by off-the-field influences last season.

After 3 unbeaten league games, he and Fisher - the old double act - sack Thorn; than take 4 games to appoint what the local paper says is their second choice after their chosen candidate turned them down.

Waggott? Fisher? Two peas in a pod, with neither accepting any culpability for where we now are.

Thorn, crap manager? Who knows? Maybe. Waggott and Fisher free from blame? Do me a favour

Nobody has said that. Yes, we missed out on 2-3 players due to the late filing of accounts; but then we proceeded to sign considerably more so that Thorn was given the majority of his targets. Signings were announced when they were completed (no weeks of faffing media speculation before), and as much was done as reasonably possible to give the manager the tools he asked for. The huge mistake was the trust placed in Thorn, and then the hash made of appointing his replacement-don't leap to the extreme assumptions MMM.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

What extreme assumptions?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Forget what went on before Fisher - I'm focusing on how Waggot has operated since Fisher came in and brought him here - no Waggot is not responsible for filing the accounts I agree - BUT did he really impress upon his boss, Fisher, the absolute need to do this so as to get the embargo lifted - and if he did then did Fisher in turn impress upon SISU the need to provide assurances the losses would be covered so as to get them signed off as a viable concern

I suspect Waggot did not make Fisher understand the urgency of the situation and it's negative affects on the football side of things - I suspect he didn't think it was that important and we still had time

Between them they should have got SISU to validate the accounts sooner and they did not either because they didn't think it was that critical or they couldn't get SISU to do it. Either way it's no way to run the club

There's no knowing of what really went on behind the scenes-however, considering the rate at which we were signing players following the embargo being lifted, it doesn't seem as though there was any lack of urgency on Waggott's part. When considering last season you can't simply ignore the first half of it, and the pre-season under Ken where the squad was heavily trimmed of its star assets, with a more incompetent duo at the helm in Dulieu and Igwe; the worst damage was done in this spell before Fisher and Waggott arrived.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

What extreme assumptions?

That which I highlighted in bold, good sir.

 

[lordsummerisle]

If my auntie was my uncle and all. The fact is they couldn't deliver what was asked of them

Nor could Thorn.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

That which I highlighted in bold, good sir.

The theme of this thread is about those in authority who haven't shouldered their fair share of the blame for where we are. Quite rightly, fingers pointed at Brody, Orange Ken, Onye. Apologies from Fisher and Waggott about how naughty they were at forums.

My point? Recent past. Have F&W taken any responsibility for their role? I don't see any. Hence me turning the screw to expose their frailties if they won't acknowledge them.

Not an assumption thus dear chap, but an assertion

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Nor could Thorn.

Equally, if the Isle of Wight tried to invade the USA, they'd be repelled

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The theme of this thread is about those in authority who haven't shouldered their fair share of the blame for where we are. Quite rightly, fingers pointed at Brody, Orange Ken, Onye. Apologies from Fisher and Waggott about how naughty they were at forums.

My point? Recent past. Have F&W taken any responsibility for their role? I don't see any. Hence me turning the screw to expose their frailties if they won't acknowledge them.

Not an assumption thus dear chap, but an assertion

Nobody has suggested they are blameless. I don't think they've covered themselves in glory and most here rightly have criticised them for the way they handled Thorn's sacking and hiring the new man. It's Thorn escaping any criticism which I find difficult to understand on your part.

 

[lordsummerisle]

Equally, if the Isle of Wight tried to invade the USA, they'd be repelled

Think that the USA surrounds the area with submarines during Cowes week just in case.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Nobody has suggested they are blameless. I don't think they've covered themselves in glory and most here rightly have criticised them for the way they handled Thorn's sacking and hiring the new man. It's Thorn escaping any criticism which I find difficult to understand on your part.

I criticised him regularly last year. But equally thought he was hampered by circumstance. Which to an extent Waggott seemed to agree to. Right ahead of sacking him.

I did include in this very thread the comment 'Thorn, crap manager? Who knows?'. Hardly a glowing endorsement. But to reaffirm my view, I thought the team - for which Thorn has to take authority - was terrible ahead of Christmas, although weakened by the summer departees. I wanted to see him supported in January and beyond to see if he could step up to the plate. I don't think he was supported sufficiently to do so. Thorn's legacy to me? On balance, I think a poor manager. But was never supported as well as his peers were to prove me wrong

 

[covcity4life]

You are not aware though are you?

He has yet to score a League goal for Swindon.

i said he scored and he has,so i am aware

wether it was in the cup or league is of no concern to me

please learn to read

 

[lordsummerisle]

i said he scored and he has,so i am aware

wether it was in the cup or league is of no concern to me

please learn to read

I said he hadn't scored in the League.

You said as far as you were aware he had scored, in response to me saying that he hadn't scored in the League.

In that context scoring in the Cup is not relevant.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Seems like Andy Turner drinks at the Royal Oak...

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

Equally, if the Isle of Wight tried to invade the USA, they'd be repelled

Careful what you write on tinternet MMM.. big brother watches.. Obamas just gone Def-Con 4, not like the yanks to overreact? :facepalm:

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

True. He'll be anticipating their attack using those small lighthouses you can fill with strata of multi-coloured sand, followed by an aerial assault using green chair-lifts....

 

[SydneySkyBlue]

This article actually mirrors my opinion on why it's gone wrong since SISU took control. I'd be interested to know who told him the stories about OI though - very amusing, if you can call it that given it was our club he was running!

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

This article actually mirrors my opinion on why it's gone wrong since SISU took control. I'd be interested to know who told him the stories about OI though - very amusing, if you can call it that given it was our club he was running!

Totally agree. It's fairly objective IMO. Every SISU board appointment has failed abysmally, yet each time, we get "well, that was KD/OI's fault...they've gone now". But who were they working for? Whose orders were they following? Where is the accountability?