Do you want to discuss boring politics? (233 Viewers)
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fatso
Well-Known Member
Remember this debacle
‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the Treasury under Gordon Brown, left a note for his successor that proved to be a gift for the Conservatives
Now I ain't backing the tories, as they've proved to be shite, but let's not forget the Labour Party were equally funking inept.
And you'll have to excuse me for reminding you that you backed Corbyn for fuck sake, and look how we'll he did for Labour!!!
So if there's no helping anyone. It's you.
Its a myth that non doms pay no tax, they actually pay 30 grand a year to the tax man to have non domestic status. If you've been living in the UK for more than 12 years that 30k rises to 60k per year. So non doms pay more tax per year than most people earn. On top of the 30k or 60k they also pay additional tax on any earnings made within the UK.
That might only be a fraction of their wealth, but my guess is its a lot more than me and you combined will pay.
Removing that non domestic status, doesn't suddenly create more money, as the wealthy will just move to more advantageous tax locations, (like Richard Branson did)
So in the end, the treasury actually gets less money, not more money.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Remember this debacle
‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the Treasury under Gordon Brown, left a note for his successor that proved to be a gift for the Conservativeswww.theguardian.com
Now I ain't backing the tories, as they've proved to be shite, but let's not forget the Labour Party were equally funking inept.
And you'll have to excuse me for reminding you that you backed Corbyn for fuck sake, and look how we'll he did for Labour!!!
So if there's no helping anyone. It's you.
Its a myth that non doms pay no tax, they actually pay 30 grand a year to the tax man to have non domestic status. If you've been living in the UK for more than 12 years that 30k rises to 60k per year. So non doms pay more tax per year than most people earn. On top of the 30k or 60k they also pay additional tax on any earnings made within the UK.
That might only be a fraction of their wealth, but my guess is its a lot more than me and you combined will pay.
Removing that non domestic status, doesn't suddenly create more money, as the wealthy will just move to more advantageous tax locations, (like Richard Branson did)
So in the end, the treasury actually gets less money, not more money.
Oh dear
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
What’s your plan then? Fill the gaps by stamping out benefit fraud?Remember this debacle
‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the Treasury under Gordon Brown, left a note for his successor that proved to be a gift for the Conservatives
Now I ain't backing the tories, as they've proved to be shite, but let's not forget the Labour Party were equally funking inept.
And you'll have to excuse me for reminding you that you backed Corbyn for fuck sake, and look how we'll he did for Labour!!!
So if there's no helping anyone. It's you.
Its a myth that non doms pay no tax, they actually pay 30 grand a year to the tax man to have non domestic status. If you've been living in the UK for more than 12 years that 30k rises to 60k per year. So non doms pay more tax per year than most people earn. On top of the 30k or 60k they also pay additional tax on any earnings made within the UK.
That might only be a fraction of their wealth, but my guess is its a lot more than me and you combined will pay.
Removing that non domestic status, doesn't suddenly create more money, as the wealthy will just move to more advantageous tax locations, (like Richard Branson did)
So in the end, the treasury actually gets less money, not more money.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Mmm. And I wonder where they happen to declare the majority of their earnings? Overseas where they pay no tax or in the UK where they pay tax? Naive at best.
While on the subject of non doms and the suggestion that non doms will leave the country. It’s utterly bizarre. The UK is in a very small club of countries that offer non dom status. From memory it’s the UK, Ireland, Cyprus and Malta. Clearly these aren’t the only countries in the world with wealthy people.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Paaa haaa haaa haaa. I think if you realised just what a stupid statement that was you wouldn’t have said it in the first place. On average that £30k saves them over £10M in tax a year, each. They each avoid more tax in a year than over 3500 average earners pay in tax in a year. Cancelling non dom status is like adding another 225M to the workforce on average wage to the coffers.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If we just cancel enough Diversity Officers…
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
You're posting this as a serious point aren't you? How are people still falling for thatRemember this debacle
‘I’m afraid there is no money.’ The letter I will regret for ever | Liam Byrne
Liam Byrne, chief secretary to the Treasury under Gordon Brown, left a note for his successor that proved to be a gift for the Conservatives
My understanding is that unless there is international agreement, which hopefully is coming, the ‘Amazon tax’ just isn’t currently feasible. The whole country wants it but to pretend this is something a party in the U.K. can deliver on its own is a bit disingenuous unless I’m missing something
The country needs to find a way to stimulate growth and productivity which will need significant public and private investment. As shmmeee posted we could do with something coming out of leftfield like AI, maybe crypto/continued fintech development where we can specialise and be a bit of a global leader. without this we’ll just trundle along, all paying a bit more tax each year, without getting an improvement to services, whoevers in charge
I just don’t have much faith in politicians across the board I’m afraid. That said, if the weather stays nice and inflation comes down, I’d still rather live here than most other places in the world
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The one thing all sides have got right is growth and productivity in particular is key here. We’ve barely grown since the pandemic.
I’m biased but I’d go hard on tech. Europe is massively over cautious when it comes to it and it hampers their competitiveness. Personally I’d go hard on data and AI and make it as easy as possible to go start up to scale up in this country. The US and China are basically the Wild West here so holding ourselves back out of some misguided attempt at nobility is pointless. The U.K. can be the tech hub that’s English speaking, tech literate, and on Europes doorstep. Perform the role we handed away on trade with Brexit but for technological advancements.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Jees, that brexit weren’t half a waste of time. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?
Being serious for a moment though and I apologise in advance as I’m going to have to drop the B bomb and not in jest. This is exactly the reason why the likes of Rees-Mogg, the so called tax payers alliance, rich owners of newspapers, various secretly funded think tanks and wealthy people like Dyson, Banks, Bamford etc. promoted brexit. The EU planned to clampdown on tax avoidance and money laundering simply because it could for the reason you point out, they have the numbers to do something meaningful and the size to make it count. The UK through the City of London and its overseas territories is the biggest facilitator of tax avoidance and money laundering in the world. I deliberately link tax avoidance and money laundering because they’re facilitated by the same people and organisations. Crack down on one and it affects the other, they’re too peas in the same pod. Make no mistake this is their brexit, not “ours”.
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Think we’ve said before, look back to productivity etc since the financial crisis.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
The problem is, 'productivity' is often used as an excuse for job cuts target than a reason to invest to improve it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Or close some more libraries.
Jees, that brexit weren’t half a waste of time. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?
Being serious for a moment though and I apologise in advance as I’m going to have to drop the B bomb and not in jest. This is exactly the reason why the likes of Rees-Mogg, the so called tax payers alliance, rich owners of newspapers, various think tanks and wealthy people like Dyson, Banks, Bamford etc. promoted brexit. The EU planned to clampdown on tax avoidance and money laundering simply because it could for the reason you point out, they have the numbers to do something meaningful and the size to make it count. The UK through the City of London and its overseas territories is the biggest facilitator of tax avoidance and money laundering in the world. I deliberately link tax avoidance and money laundering because they’re facilitated by the same people and organisations. Crack down on one and it affects the other, they’re too peas in the same pod. Make no mistake this is their brexit, not ours.
The money laundering etc is very different to some kind of global tax agreement whereby companies pay where revenue is generated.
Trying to get countries such as Ireland with 12.5% Corp tax agreeing to it is going to be a challenge
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The ultimate irony is that the EU tax plans in their original conception has hit the buffers but not because of Ireland, because of pressure from the US who wants a global (albeit watered down) response to tax. The very same US we were going to get a trade deal from on day one of Brexit. Again. That brexit was a waste of time. Sovereignty? What sovereignty?
There’s been a real lack in investment in machinery etc a lot due to lack of certainty in the U.K. (I accept partially due to Brexit and the shitshow/uncertainty since). But there’s also been a historical reliance on cheap labour. I understand Tonys point about certain Brexiteers wanting to benefit from a certain type of Brexit but there’s also got to be an acceptance that many multi nationals/big business were happy to use cheap labour rather than investing in improving processes, equipment etc
Agree US would be a main blocker
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I think that’s a government thing really. Fact is we’re a knowledge economy at the cusp of a revolution in knowledge work. We really should lean into it.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
The cheap labour thing is a myth. Unless you’re talking about specific sectors such as care, farming and hospitality. All sectors that are difficult to mechanise and improve through changing practices. These are jobs (as we seen during furlough) brits just don’t want to do. Freedom of movement was a great solution for us. We currently have a government that are on one hand waging a phoney culture war against immigration while on the other hand shitting it that there isn’t enough. Case in point being the Hong Kong scheme. It’s been a rollercoaster for the government. When Raab first announced the policy it was pointed out that it meant nearly 6.5 million could move here overnight, in typical of this governments style they were creating policy on the hoof without being over the details. The reality is despite the phoney culture war claims that eleventy billion people want to claim asylum here if we let them that the government has extended the scheme because take up was so low, 123K in the 2 years that the scheme was originally supposed to run. IIRC it’s not just a 12 month extension to the scheme but they’ve also widened the scope of who qualifies to attract more people to claim asylum in the UK from Hong Kong. They’re blowing smoke up our arses is an understatement.
The point is there are opportunities to automate in those sectors to improve productivity and/or focus on training/retraining people, but this hasn’t happened as much as it could due to the availability of cheap labour, either legal or shadow labour market. It’s been a lazy approach. I agree there are jobs Brits don’t appear to want to do, or possible don’t have the skills to do, and this needs to be addressed either through reskilling/retraining and/or making doing those jobs more valued and worthwhile ie higher wages. But to suggest an increased supply of anything, inc labour, doesn’t lead to a suppression of costs/price and calling it a myth, is wrong.
This is why the debate goes round in circles, the right shouting all immigration is bad, the left saying that’s racist, it’s all fine, more the merrier. It’s obvious there is a happy medium of the right number of net migrants in certain sectors, a better further education system to better plug long term skills shortages and increasing/helping the number of economically inactive (but able and willing to work) back into the workforce through better training and support. That just moves into the too hard box though
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Sorry Steve, I don’t buy it. It sounds like something straight out of Braverman playbook, teach people to pick fruit and veg. You’d have to force most British people by gunpoint to pick fruit and veg in this country. It’s nothing to do with training, farms are mechanised a lot in the UK, the fact is some/most produce can only be harvested by hand. The work is backbreaking, traditionally low paid long before freedom of movement and seasonal. British people just don’t want to do it. The care sector can’t be mechanised past what’s already there and 100% requires a labour force. Seems to be Africans and Asians taking up the slack from the loss of freedom of movement whether that’s in care homes or care in the community, probably explains why immigration isn’t falling after brexit, just the demographics that’s changing. Same problem as farming in many ways, backbreaking and traditionally low paid long before freedom of movement. As for hospitality sectors. Not sure how you can make it more efficient other than order from the table which is something certainly the larger chains are already doing. Someone still has to cook it, pour it and deliver it to your table. There isn’t queues of British people wanting to work unsociable long hours as the fruit loop from Wetherspoons has discovered.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
This is true.
Unfortunately we have a government and a party in charge who don't have anything resembling a long term or even medium term strategy for the country and that's because, as usual, their internal squabbles come first.
I didn't know that fruit and vegetable picking could be automated but its not cheap, will the right wing brexiteers look at ways of helping farmers invest in it for the future, I think we all know the answer.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
There are some opportunities for automation in the sectors mentioned but as you point out, a lot of its not possible.
Their strategy is quite clear, get the retired and the infirm back into the workplace, in the case of the former, it will also provide a nice tax uptake if they're pulling in a pension, they really are fucking shameless.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
This National Conservatism conference is comedy gold
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Are we? On what basis?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
Rees Mogg admitting that voter ID was an attempt at voter suppression was a highlight. Admitting it backfired and stopped older people from voting, a demographic more likely to vote Tory. Blamed the current government despite the fact it was the Boris government he was in that introduced it.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
They love rewriting history don’t they national conservatism indeed
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Got a quote/clip?
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
In related news
Record numbers not working due to ill health
Mental health issues and back and neck pain have contributed to the rise in long-term sickness.
www.bbc.co.uk
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Which bit? The knowledge economy bit or the revolution bit? The former on where our GDP comes from, the latter on what I know is coming down the line in the next 5-10 years.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
The former, I haven’t heard the term before
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
Voter ID is ‘gerrymandering’ which backfired on Tories, says Rees-Mogg
Elderly Tory voters didn’t have ID for local elections, says ex-cabinet minister
www.independent.co.uk
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
He went further in his actual speech but can’t find a clip to hand. Gerrymandering was the exact word he used in his speech
By the way, he supported the bill when it went through parliament. It was also in the Tory manifesto in 2019 that he not only was part off he forwarded the motion in parliament to call an early GE so they could do this amongst other things. Apart from that though it was nothing to do with him.
Then there’s this
Jacob Rees-Mogg's bizarre defence of government's Voter ID plans
Jacob Rees-Mogg has defended the government’s plans to require photographic identification to vote by comparing it to a ban on MPs wearing overcoats and
www.theneweuropean.co.uk
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Voter ID is ‘gerrymandering’ which backfired on Tories, says Rees-Mogg
Elderly Tory voters didn’t have ID for local elections, says ex-cabinet minister
Wow he was really stupid enough to say it out loud.