Do you want to discuss boring politics? (230 Viewers)

[clint van damme]

Just blew me away. It’s all housing wealth but still. I’ve started this fight before but generally speaking pensioners are a very well looked after demographic. Because they vote and every MP will be one one day.

If there’s money going I’d give it to families over pensioners every day TBH. Obviously talking general groups not targeted support.

We have one of the lowest state pensions in Europe.
It's a disgrace. It shouldn't be a choice between providing a decent state pension and supporting families.
I appreciate you're not advocating it should

 

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[fernandopartridge]

Just blew me away. It’s all housing wealth but still. I’ve started this fight before but generally speaking pensioners are a very well looked after demographic. Because they vote and every MP will be one one day.

If there’s money going I’d give it to families over pensioners every day TBH. Obviously talking general groups not targeted support.

Agree with you. That said I think the idea that it's a choice between the two is wrong really, a responsible government should support both but playing the groups off against each other has been a successful electoral strategy for a long time.

That successive governments have been happy with illusory perceptions of wealth through inflated house prices is a huge problem too, this must be dealt with and the pain must be felt (preferably by the lenders).

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[duffer]

Saw a stat earlier. 1 in 4 pensioners are millionaires.

That seems somewhat unlikely to me. Where did that come from, can I ask...

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

That seems somewhat unlikely to me. Where did that come from, can I ask...

It'll be based on property prices.

Lots of pensioners rattling around big old empty nests.

 

[shmmeee]

It'll be based on property prices.

Lots of pensioners rattling around big old empty nests.

Exactly this. Pension pot and housing are the most common forms of wealth. I wonder how many people are like me living in a smaller house with a family than their parents are alone. There’s got to be smarter ways of working this out than a bunch of families waiting for their relatives to die. Maybe a way of transferring housing wealth while alive that doesn’t fuck everyone over?

 

[Sick Boy]

There are plenty of people aged 20-35 who I doubt will be able to afford to buy a house - who’s going to pay their rent when they retire?

 

[shmmeee]

Build build build.

 

[clint van damme]

There are plenty of people aged 20-35 who I doubt will be able to afford to buy a house - who’s going to pay their rent when they retire?

In a lot of countries people Rent their whole lives knowing their rent is affordable and their pension more than adequate to cover it when they retire.

Not this country, people are fucked both ways. How did we get in to such a mess?

 

[clint van damme]

Build build build.

Or kill your parents!

 

[shmmeee]

Or kill your parents!

Wouldn’t need to if they could get affordable bungalow living

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Saw a stat earlier. 1 in 4 pensioners are millionaires.

Wow really? Not surprised

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

In a lot of countries people Rent their whole lives knowing their rent is affordable and their pension more than adequate to cover it when they retire.

Not this country, people are fucked both ways. How did we get in to such a mess?

Tories and capitalism.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Yeah, basically my future is either comfortable or not dependent on whether my parents need nursing care. As a system of wealth creation, that's flawed... and they're not even particularly well off, just careful with money and with only one child. But they earned that, not me.

I haven't earned any of that, though! Likewise if they need nursing care, it's not my fault that others won't and will therefore pass on more to people who aren't me!

While they have earned it, they'll have also had conditions that were favourable that you never will. More affordable housing, final salary pensions etc. The post war generation have had it pretty sweet overall in comparison to other generations.

 

[shmmeee]

While they have earned it, they'll have also had conditions that were favourable that you never will. More affordable housing, final salary pensions etc. The post war generation have had it pretty sweet overall in comparison to other generations.

All feels a bit bucket of crabs tho.

Can’t I be happy my parents moved from working to middle class and want to be able to do it myself?

Just give me affordable housing, a fair wage, and a reasonable shot at a healthy pension.

 

[fernandopartridge]

In a lot of countries people Rent their whole lives knowing their rent is affordable and their pension more than adequate to cover it when they retire.

Not this country, people are fucked both ways. How did we get in to such a mess?

Not sure when the mindset that a home was an 'investment' came in - probably from the massive house price growth from the late 90s onwards where people could see a rapidly appreciating asset. As I said in my earlier post, that bubble needs bursting somehow, otherwise we're just going to keep going around the same cycle.

 

[fernandopartridge]

While they have earned it, they'll have also had conditions that were favourable that you never will. More affordable housing, final salary pensions etc. The post war generation have had it pretty sweet overall in comparison to other generations.

Nobody earns house price inflation, let's be honest.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Not sure when the mindset that a home was an 'investment' came in - probably from the massive house price growth from the late 90s onwards where people could see a rapidly appreciating asset. As I said in my earlier post, that bubble needs bursting somehow, otherwise we're just going to keep going around the same cycle.

'Don't disagree - the issue is an awful lot of people are now invested in it with mortgages, and it wouldn't be popular to wipe £100s of thousands off people's 'wealth', so it won't happen and will be maintained at all costs.

As a side note, one of my worse decisions was not buying a four bed house in a half decent area of Cov in the mid '90s for £58k. Was working in London at the time, and decided if nobody rented it I'd be shafted. The year or so later I could have sold it and gained myself £150k for the privilege!

Ah well!

 

[Terry_dactyl]

'Don't disagree - the issue is an awful lot of people are now invested in it with mortgages, and it wouldn't be popular to wipe £100s of thousands off people's 'wealth', so it won't happen and will be maintained at all costs.

As a side note, one of my worse decisions was not buying a four bed house in a half decent area of Cov in the mid '90s for £58k. Was working in London at the time, and decided if nobody rented it I'd be shafted. The year or so later I could have sold it and gained myself £150k for the privilege!

Ah well!

At about that time My cousin, turned down the opportunity to buy his flat for ‘pennies’. His flat was on Tottenham Court Rd.

 

[shmmeee]

I think everyone alive then must have a story. I know a mate who went the other way and made £10k after six months of living with his missus then splitting up.

Of course with my financial luck o found out that when I got a car at 17 (which i promptly crashed) my parents considered buying me a house in Gordon Street in the Butts for the same price. But decided it was a waste of money because they were bound to be slum cleared. Worth about £200k now…

 

[fernandopartridge]

'Don't disagree - the issue is an awful lot of people are now invested in it with mortgages, and it wouldn't be popular to wipe £100s of thousands off people's 'wealth', so it won't happen and will be maintained at all costs.

Depends where you are on the mortgage, if you're a few years in and still owe 60%+ of the capital + interest, you will still need to pay probably more than the value of the house to realise the asset.

My mortgage is around £220k, house value is roughly £340k (this has increased about 33% in 3 years) Still got 20 years left on current mortgage I think, still got £294k of repayments including interest (currently at £1170 a month) to make based on the current market value on top of a £27k deposit and repayments including interest to date of roughly £40k. How much have prices got to grow for that to be a better investment than money into a steady pension pot?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Depends where you are on the mortgage, if you're a few years in and still owe 60%+ of the capital + interest, you will still need to pay probably more than the value of the house to realise the asset.

My mortgage is around £220k, house value is roughly £340k (this has increased about 33% in 3 years) Still got 20 years left on current mortgage I think, still got £294k of repayments including interest (currently at £1170 a month) to make based on the current market value on top of a £27k deposit and repayments including interest to date of roughly £40k. How much have prices got to grow for that to be a better investment than money into a steady pension pot?

Thing is though, the value of your house goes down by, say, 50%, you're then paying for the privilege of something that's worth substantially less than it was and, in this instance, less than you're paying for it. That tends not to go down well if trying to sell that to voters, that you've needlessly borrowed the money. Nobody's going to let those of us with mortgages off what we owe, after all.

It's not about those going forward in terms of winning votes, it's those who are here now you have to convince.

 

[shmmeee]

This is why you bring in LVT. Then people won’t be so happy about massive house prices.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I think everyone alive then must have a story. I know a mate who went the other way and made £10k after six months of living with his missus then splitting up.

Of course with my financial luck o found out that when I got a car at 17 (which i promptly crashed) my parents considered buying me a house in Gordon Street in the Butts for the same price. But decided it was a waste of money because they were bound to be slum cleared. Worth about £200k now…

Stonehouse estate, I told my dad they were overpriced at, what, £12k I think? and to wait until prices came down before buying to let out.

He's still waiting!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Thing is though, the value of your house goes down by, say, 50%, you're then paying for the privilege of something that's worth substantially less than it was and, in this instance, less than you're paying for it. That tends not to go down well if trying to sell that to voters, that you've needlessly borrowed the money. Nobody's going to let those of us with mortgages off what we owe, after all.

It's not about those going forward in terms of winning votes, it's those who are here now you have to convince.

A few friends of mine at the same age are now property landlords courtesy of capital given by their parents. Real life Monopoly for those who can afford it

 

[duffer]

It'll be based on property prices.

Lots of pensioners rattling around big old empty nests.

Politely, I'd still challenge it. The average pension pot at 65 is £200k, from what I can find. The average house price in the UK is under £300k (ONS figures).

Given the distribution of wealth, i.e. there are a lot more poor people than rich people, I'd think there will be a lot of smaller (or barely extant) pension pots and a few very big ones. A similar story with house prices. So getting to 25% have over a million seems a stretch to me.

In the nicest way, I'd like to see the working before I trusted those figures.

It doesn't change some of the underlying issues of course - I don't know how young people can afford housing these days (I'm struggling myself at the moment, and I definitely ain't young!), but I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate representation.

 

[chiefdave]

Given the distribution of wealth, i.e. there are a lot more poor people than rich people, I'd think there will be a lot of smaller (or barely extant) pension pots and a few very big ones. A similar story with house prices. So getting to 25% have over a million seems a stretch to me.

A lot of people are putting the minimum into their pensions because they simply can't afford more. Then you just get to the lottery of will your parents assets be taken away before they are passed on to you.

It really is just luck of the draw, you're hoping your parents have a decent amount of assets in terms of property and you hope that doesn't disappear paying for care costs

 

[duffer]

A lot of people are putting the minimum into their pensions because they simply can't afford more. Then you just get to the lottery of will your parents assets be taken away before they are passed on to you.

It really is just luck of the draw, you're hoping your parents have a decent amount of assets in terms of property and you hope that doesn't disappear paying for care costs

I can only speak personally, but that's where I am (except for the inheritance, there was never any chance of that!).

I'm in a decent, fairly well-paid job, and whilst I'd love to pay more into the private pension there's absolutely no hope of that whilst I'm covering the mortgage and other bills.

By the time I retire I'll have paid tax for almost 50 years.

It would be nice if the kids didn't have to flog the house just to pay for a few years of my care. Luckily, with the way I drive they probably won't have to.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Politely, I'd still challenge it. The average pension pot at 65 is £200k, from what I can find. The average house price in the UK is under £300k (ONS figures).

Given the distribution of wealth, i.e. there are a lot more poor people than rich people, I'd think there will be a lot of smaller (or barely extant) pension pots and a few very big ones. A similar story with house prices. So getting to 25% have over a million seems a stretch to me.

In the nicest way, I'd like to see the working before I trusted those figures.

It doesn't change some of the underlying issues of course - I don't know how young people can afford housing these days (I'm struggling myself at the moment, and I definitely ain't young!), but I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate representation.

I just did a google......apparently R4 fact checked it recently.... its true (enough)

EDIT: It was a R4 podcast from the "more or less" series.

Synopsis from this random website here: Have senior citizens never had it so good? - Rollits LLP.

 

[shmmeee]

Politely, I'd still challenge it. The average pension pot at 65 is £200k, from what I can find. The average house price in the UK is under £300k (ONS figures).

Given the distribution of wealth, i.e. there are a lot more poor people than rich people, I'd think there will be a lot of smaller (or barely extant) pension pots and a few very big ones. A similar story with house prices. So getting to 25% have over a million seems a stretch to me.

In the nicest way, I'd like to see the working before I trusted those figures.

It doesn't change some of the underlying issues of course - I don't know how young people can afford housing these days (I'm struggling myself at the moment, and I definitely ain't young!), but I'm not sure that's an entirely accurate representation.

Take it up with Tim Harford

https://www.rollits.com/news/blog/have-senior-citizens-never-had-it-so-good/#:~:text=Given%20that%20many%20pensioners%20will,£1%20million%20or%20more.

 

[duffer]

I just did a google......apparently R4 fact checked it recently.... its true (enough)

Fair play, I could have looked that up myself...

I guess the next question is, where the blooming hell are they, the sneaky coffin dodging blighters. Share a bit of the wealth, eh.

Golden oldies: Are one in five pensioners millionaires? - Full Fact

A quarter of over 65s live in households with wealth above a million pounds.

fullfact.org

 

[duffer]

I'll just make the obvious point that this isn't accessible wealth.

You can't access the full value of your pension pot, or the full value of your house (unless you want to live in a tent on a roundabout somewhere).

Also, this talks about households rather individuals. If the pitch is that 1 in 4 pensioners is a millionaire in the terms that most people think of it, then that is, I'm afraid, untrue.

 

[wingy]

Firstly I live in a two two down, transferred the mortgage to my daughter nearly five years ago, with 22k remaining, how do I stand?

 

[duffer]

I think I was potentially a millionaire once, if I'd sold absolutely everything and converted to Italian Lira.

 

[jimmyhillsfanclub]

Not sure when the mindset that a home was an 'investment' came in - probably from the massive house price growth from the late 90s onwards where people could see a rapidly appreciating asset. As I said in my earlier post, that bubble needs bursting somehow, otherwise we're just going to keep going around the same cycle.

It all traceable back to the deregulation of the banks & credit markets under Thatcher......then supercharged with the birth & explosive growth of the BTL mortgage market & Blairs inertia towards social housing & housebuilding generally.....

BTL increased over 30 fold from 1997-2007!

Of course It should have all popped in 2008.....but we've been kicking them cans down the road ever since.....

We appear to be going the same way as Japan.....Multi-generational households paying 50+ year mortgages, huge looming care crisis & a flatlining economy.....

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Blairs inertia towards social housing & housebuilding generally.....

Hate to say it, but Brown supporting the housing market during the global crash didn't help either. Would have obviously been painful for those who lost their houses, but that was the time for values to come down, if ever there was.