Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
How do you get consistency over subjective decisions?
Referee (12 Viewers)
- Thread starter pusbccfc
- Start date
Adge
Well-Known Member
Indeed. Unfortunately the biased fan will/can never grasp that.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
This is the refs view. It looks as though he's trying to grab the other player rugby tackle style.
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GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee
Well-Known Member
If it was us attacking and it hadn't been given, this would be all over Cov social media "HOW HAS HE NOT GIVEN THAT?!" etc. It's so boring and tiring. All TV analysis, phone in shows geared around their team being 'robbed' on what is a marginal call. All epitomized by the embarrassment that is Arteta and Arsenal this weekend, releasing a statement about a goal that may well have stayed in, possibly may have been a foul, it was soft but 'seen them given'. Funny there was no mention of the red card Havertz 'could' also have been given. Football has been subjective for 150 odd years, it will always be subjective. Accept that some decisions fall into a grey area.This is the refs view. It looks as though he's trying to grab the other player rugby tackle style.
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fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
They're not that subjective, the referee is being asked to apply the rules of the game so it is not completely subjective
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Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
I agree that it is in applying the laws of the game that consistency is found
The subjective nature is absolute and dependent on so many things that I’ve only recently become aware of critically supporting my lad with his reffing
Youth or adult
Time of game
Atmosphere of game
Position on the pitch
Your view
What you can credibly argue based on where you are and what’s happened
Then you can get on to
Physicality
Contact
Natural position
Intent
Force
And then you can get on to
Trying to ensure you give all of these consistently over the 90 mins or less
Case in point Sunday two situations my lad likes to allow players to play always looking for an advantage and allowing fair physicality
Free kick edge of box in the middle of the pitch. Lad right next to it. Coach shouts how’s that a free kick and then repeats how’s that a free kick. None of the players complained after the explanation given. Said to the guy next to me one shout ok second shout not ok. He said it was clearly not a free kick. We were as far as you can be away for the side of the pitch my lad and the players right next to it. Is it credible that they were more right than him? Is it objectively or subjectively right and who’s decision is more credible my lad or the coach
Second one last minute 3-3 right winger tussles for ball parents going mad as there was a real tussle. Lad plays on the same lad who jumped up and accepted the session 10 seconds later gets brought down in the box penalty. Again subjective or objective?
Now escalate that to the top standard the only objective discussion is where is the ref and has he seen it? Arteta and O’Neill for me are bringing the game into disrepute and they need to be really careful
The wolves one for me in real time isn’t even controversial
The arsenal one the only subjective decision is the foul the other two aspect were objective it didn’t go out and it wasn’t offside and arteta comes out with it’s embarrassing!!
pusbccfc
Well-Known Member
This is the refs view. It looks as though he's trying to grab the other player rugby tackle style.
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From that angle, he should have been sent off then or at least blown for the foul 5/6 seconds early before the Preston player flew his shot wide and then flung himself to the floor.
MusicDating
Euro 2016 Prediction League Champion!!
This is the refs view. It looks as though he's trying to grab the other player rugby tackle style.
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And this is his view of the Simms one in the 73rd min (the defender's already diverted his run and tried to push Simms by this point).
If Simms had gone down and claimed a pen, he'd have probably got it.
shepardo01
Well-Known Member
It has been all over social media, mostly from neutral posters (all over from many different clubs supporters) as a poor decision - from every roughly 10 comments, 8 can't believe a penalty was given.
pusbccfc
Well-Known Member
Another example of us being too nice. We have to go down for those.
pusbccfc
Well-Known Member
Under-fire referee Anthony Taylor slammed over penalty 'stinker' in Championship
Anthony Taylor has found himself in the headlines once again after awarding Preston North End a controversial penalty against Coventry City
Football fans slam Anthony Taylor for awarding controversial penalty
Taylor, 45, has made the headlines yet again for the wrong reasons after he awarded Preston a penalty in their Championship showdown with the Sky Blues.
Terry Gibson's perm
Well-Known Member
They should demote him again and not let him referee any European games for extra money until he improves.
robbiethemole
Well-Known Member
Is there actually any real contact, ie a push or pull back cos it looks like the bloke has stayed on his feet for another 5 seconds and got a shot away before falling down. Look at the Plymouth v Boro one..............full on contact and no foul/pen given
Frostie
Well-Known Member
This is the whole point of decisions being subjective. Some think there's enough contact to warrant a foul, others don't, you will never get consistency.
As another example, the Havertz tackle. There is enough evidence to award either a yellow or red depending on the refs subjective opinion. Neither will be judged as an error.
The only thing Taylor definitely got objectively wrong is it's either:
A) Advantage+ Yellow Card
B) Penalty+ Red Card
Taylor somehow picked bits of both. I think he was embarrassed that the player made such a mess of the advantage he'd tried to play.
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Yes it does look like Fadz is trying to grab the player, but he failed to do so. The striker, unaffected by the heinous action behind him, takes his shot, misses and is rewarded with a penalty. The striker wasn’t denied a goal scoring opportunity, he took it and missed.This is the refs view. It looks as though he's trying to grab the other player rugby tackle style.
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The same goes for police officers and judges, yet objectivity is non-existent there.
Adge
Well-Known Member
For those who are interested-here is the official line…..
Decisions will be made to the best of the referee’s ability according to the Laws of the Game and the ‘spirit of the game’ and will be based on the opinion of the referee, who has the discretion to take appropriate action within the framework of the Laws of the Game.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
so governed by a framework and not subjective? thanks for clearing that up
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
So many words yet so little said
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
People want black and white
Right and wrong
Good and evil
Nuance is everywhere
MalcSB
Well-Known Member
Defines his ability as insufficient then.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Well it’s a lot of words to say ‘the referee calls what he sees’.
Nuskyblue
Well-Known Member
Calls what he sees is fine by me. Bin VAR, bin endless replays of incidents that cropped up in the sky era with Keys and Grey wanking over minimal contact in the box and declaring it a blatant foul, branding the referee a disgrace which has led us to VAR refereeing games and fucking nauseam which leads us to the same fucking outcome but it takes longer.
pusbccfc
Well-Known Member
Anthony Taylor returns to Premier League action after being 'demoted'
The referee was embroiled in a spate of controversy after awarding a divisive penalty against Wolves to Newcastle during their 2-2 draw at Molineux at the end of October.
Taylor given the big game of the weekend
Frostie
Well-Known Member
Almost like it was never a 'demotion' in the first place (as I kept saying).Anthony Taylor returns to Premier League action after being 'demoted'
The referee was embroiled in a spate of controversy after awarding a divisive penalty against Wolves to Newcastle during their 2-2 draw at Molineux at the end of October.www.dailymail.co.uk
Taylor given the big game of the weekend
Is it any wonder we have such a shit state of affairs when there is a constant pile on for referees.
Nick
Administrator
But they are being piled on because they are awful.
Depends on the offence - and how the laws are interpreted - examples being handball and fouls, so I accept that argument.
But offside should be black and white - not if the linesman ‘thinks’ the player might have been - if they’re not sure then they shouldn’t flag - even more so when there isn’t VAR to correct it.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
100% agree but I think the genie is out
Accept the decisions - check the objective ones quick, goal line tech and offsides but only when it’s foolproof
He ruins it a little with we’ll carry on with 5. Well no the game is called off at 6
Anyway he’s right let the ref and assistants make the decision.
The Philosopher
Well-Known Member
This is where a bit of coaching / common sense comes in:
If the ref has given a pen to the other side, particularly a soft one then he’s more likely to award you one of you go down in the box “to level things up”
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
It’s supposed to be for clear and obvious errors so have replays at normal speed and a time limit on making a decision. If you need more than that it’s not clear and obvious
As for offsides get someone in who understands the maths and allow for a margin of error. The technology just doesn’t allow for the close calls they’re trying to use it for
As for offsides get someone in who understands the maths and allow for a margin of error. The technology just doesn’t allow for the close calls they’re trying to use it for
GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee
Well-Known Member
I agreed on the timeframe situation but since heard a really good point on how much excessive pressure that puts on TV companies to get the correct angles, what if the time limits them to only show a couple of angles which aren't great and the refs opinion would be different with another etc. For what it's worth, I completely agree with you, but football fans are so irrational, you can see many examples on this thread. The issue we have is, everyone moaned about 'incompetent' refs because they don't give the exact decisions they would give, we end up with technology to improve it, it weakens the match experience and we still have the exact issue we had before.
Nick
Administrator
Shouldn't every stadium using VAR have cameras in the same angles?
GaryMabbuttsLeftKnee
Well-Known Member
Possibly but that is irrelevant to what angle is best to see an incident as there could be players etc in the way. The impetus is then put on TV companies to provide images in a very time sensitive/high pressured scenario, which inevitably they won't get right every time and then you can get even angrier about the failings.
Not everything has a transmission or as in the song "the revolution will not be televised
Truth is it's.not the Panacea every one thought it would,bin it
Frostie
Well-Known Member
There needs to be massive improvements for sure but just taking the Anthony Taylor example...
He was deceived by a player diving or, at best, exaggerating contact. He gave what he saw which on first viewing, live & at full speed seemed reasonable.
The VAR, Jared Gillet looks at it, from multiple angles & in slow motion, decides that there was contact & doesn't even ask Taylor to look again. So whose error is it really? VAR's surely? I won't go into the conflicting VAR protocol which enables this.
The press then create false stories that Taylor has been 'demoted' because of it whilst Gillet referees a PL game & the diving player is being lauded as "clever" for deceiving the official...
