Otis
Well-Known Member
As I say, this debate has happened before hasn't it.
Most certainly not calling it as a get out clause.
He needs locking away. Prison or mental health unit. Whichever way you look at it.
Dublin (Ireland) Stabbings (7 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Most certainly not calling it as a get out clause.
He needs locking away. Prison or mental health unit. Whichever way you look at it.
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
He gives you righties a bad nameFfs. I'm pretty right thinking and I don't know where to start with this.
'One'
'They'
Otis
Well-Known Member
I never for one second said "I hope they are alright."
It's the stabbing children that makes me wonder. It's a turn of events isn't it. If children are now going to be targeted like this (not talking about the US), it's very, very concerning.
Anyway, you are very reactionary, Nick. I am sure you would admit that yourself.
I reckon this is exactly how things would go with you in this following scenario.
Let me put this to you.
So, a story breaks. A man has reportedly killed his whole family. So, brother, mum and dad and grandparents.
Stabbed them to death at the family home.
100% you would be saying he's a c*nt and should be shot. Yes?
I am sure you would agree on that. You are pretty consistent and open about it on such matters.
Okay, so what if you found out some weeks later that all the family had been sexually abusing him his entire life. His older brother, both his parents AND his grandparents?
I put this to you, if you heard the original story at the time, that the man had been sexually abused by his whole family and killed them, you would have said that was justified.
Without any doubt. Deserved what they got..l
Grendel
Well-Known Member
He gives you righties a bad name
He says exactly what the armchair generals do on Russia Ukraine
Nick
Administrator
Maybe the copper who killed George floyd was assaulted by black people?
Maybe the copper who killed Sarah everard was sexually assaulted as a kid?
I don't doubt that you're a kind person, much kinder than me but why is it only usually when it "might" be somebody who is islamic or terror related like this that mental health is suddenly called into question? (Not saying that's you by the way).
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Otis
Well-Known Member
I don't normally. It's the kids thing that has thrown me and has me wondering.
It's highly unusual isn't it.
Actually, my first thought wasn't that it was maybe a mental health issue, it was that maybe it was an ex partner and her child
It's just unusual. That's what has had me take a step back a bit.
Otis
Well-Known Member
Yup. Definitely.
It does seem the nationality of the perpetrator is what caused the unrest.
We shouldn't really be talking about that though should we.
Something truly horrific occurred and it's not getting that much of a mention (the victims, the children, classmates, teachers, families etc).
Can't imagine what they are going through.
I think this is a gross oversimplification, and I wouldn’t want you to think that my answer means I accept the premise of your question. But protests about crimes that are explicitly designed to target minority groups (or are hijacked by people who want to do so) are naturally going to attract more scrutiny and criticism than protests which don’t.
Regardless of how evil the crime that inspired it, there is an obvious difference between a protest demanding police reform because of a murdering copper, and a protest demanding Muslims be deported because of a (as-yet unidentified) knifeman outside a school. “They’re all as bad as each other” doesn’t strike me as a particularly thoughtful stance.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
And the Tories “won” in 2010/15/17/19 because Labour were hopeless
If you’re claiming your half of the population has won the culture war, you’re gonna need some decent evidence. None of the polling on social attitudes backs up ESB. It’s just standard “well everyone I speak to says X” without realising you’re in a self selecting group.
There’s made out to be some huge difference of belief on immigration but the fact is most people have the views they’ve always had to some extent. Certain flashpoints will spike anti immigrant concern, like the Syrian refugee crisis pre-Brexit, some of the stuff coming out of the pro-Palestine protests, this attack. But generally people want less immigration but other than “stop illegals” can’t say who they want to keep out and want economic migrants in shortage areas and asylum seekers.
To pretend it’s “the left” when the right has been in power for 13 years is frankly just this weird tick right wing people have where they can’t accept they’re in power yet also claim to be the default party of power. Desperate to be anti-establishment even when they are the establishment. It’s born IMO from the new voting coalition of economically liberal and socially conservative post Brexit, but that’s just speculation.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
He stabbed some kids Grendel.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
At what point in the last 13 years did you think they were doing a good job exactly?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I mean they failed to beat Brown during a massive recession and after 13 years, and failed to beat Sane Corbyn once too. It’s hardly a ringing endorsement from the electorate that they managed to beat Milliband and Mental Corbyn.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
And the Tories “won” in 2010/15/17/19 because Labour were hopeless
If you’re claiming your half of the population has won the culture war, you’re gonna need some decent evidence. None of the polling on social attitudes backs up ESB. It’s just standard “well everyone I speak to says X” without realising you’re in a self selecting group.
There’s made out to be some huge difference of belief on immigration but the fact is most people have the views they’ve always had to some extent. Certain flashpoints will spike anti immigrant concern, like the Syrian refugee crisis pre-Brexit, some of the stuff coming out of the pro-Palestine protests, this attack. But generally people want less immigration but other than “stop illegals” can’t say who they want to keep out and want economic migrants in shortage areas and asylum seekers.
To pretend it’s “the left” when the right has been in power for 13 years is frankly just this weird tick right wing people have where they can’t accept they’re in power yet also claim to be the default party of power. Desperate to be anti-establishment even when they are the establishment. It’s born IMO from the new voting coalition of economically liberal and socially conservative post Brexit, but that’s just speculation.
I'm not part of the culture war and my friendship groups have a wide range of views. I also don't blame the left for the issues around immigration as a Conservative government was put in place along with the Brexit vote to deal with that and they've utterly failed. So it seems anyone with concerns around it has literally no one to vote for.
I'd say the noises from the left (your side of the culture war?) seem to write off anyone with concerns as far right as its easier than facing reality. I personally think you'd have to be a moron to think these concerns only exist within the far right now, unless you're prepared to write off huge amounts of traditional labour voters as far right, which would be weird.
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
They have managed to damage the union beyond repair in the process too. Should be murals of BoJo in the Bogside
nicksar
Well-Known Member
I'm (seemingly) viewed on here as "Far right" the reality is I've never voted conservative in my life, many traditional Labour voters are concerned about the level of net immigration, it's totally unsustainable.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Not at all. It’s just when your advocates are the far right (Robinson, Farage, random louts smashing up town centres) you get that. Same as Corbyns good ideas get drowned out by some of his nuttier ones and nastier friends on the left. Far right and far left are accurate descriptors of a place on the political spectrum, they’re not insults. Wilders for example in NL is far right. That’s an objective descriptor. Corbyn was far left.
Honestly I think your basic problem here is you’re wanting to roll back what’s essentially technological progress (can expand what I mean here) and while politicians on the right may tell you this is possible, mostly they know it’s not. We’ve had the most hard line Home Secs for decades. Even under Labour Blunkett and Straw were hardly wish washy liberals on immigration.
We have some of the harshest immigration rules around. We are an island. And still we can’t stop what is essentially the result of war and our economic position (well we can stop the second but but we wouldn’t like it).
It’s not some gotcha about who you would let in, it’s the basic first step in getting policy you want. Because no one can answer other than the far right (“nobody please”) and their proposals are simply unworkable under law and unwanted by a majority of the population they’re a non starter.
So it’s really not a left/right thing. Countries all over the west are struggling with this, including very socialist countries like Denmark who have tried some very robust cultural policies. And places like Italy under Meloni where again immigration has gone up. None of it works.
So what are you going to do?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
What does that mean? “Unsustainable”? What is going to happen at what point?
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't worry about being called far right on here, its like a right of passage for anyone who enters a politics thread with a non left point of view. Most of the posters on here are pretty sound when they aren't waffling on the politics threads so let us not be divided by our differences.
Tony of course only waffles on politics threads so there's no evidence what he's like out of them.
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TomRad85
Well-Known Member
I think this question is beyond me and indeed anyone on this forum. It's why we have politicians to deal with it, or not...
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nicksar
Well-Known Member
I don't have the answers to that shmmeee but we have a chronic housing shortage for a start!!!.
Because of immigrants?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I mean at some point you have to accept politicians are human and not some mix of your Dad and Santa.
The elephant in the room here is political choices make very little difference to immigration. It’s spiked the last couple of years because of specific circumstances around Ukraine and lockdown in particular.
But the core drivers of immigration to the UK are the shrinking of the world due to cheaper travel, people’s horizons being expanded due to the internet, our language, and our economy.
Politicians only control two of those and no one wants them to pull those levers (though we tried our best with Brexit).
This is *the* political issue of the 21st century. It’s affecting left wing and right wing open and closed countries. If there was a solution, easy or not, we’d see it. The fact is the solutions suggested by those most concerned about this simply don’t work. A points based system often leads to more immigration. Leaving the EU led to more immigration and a switch from EU (good immigrants) to non EU (not so much). Even if you shot every dinghy on site you’re talking a tiny imperceptible difference to immigration numbers.
You’re asking for a unicorn, and there will always be people who will try and sell you a unicorn. It doesn’t mean you’re going to get anything other than a mutilated horse turn up on your doorstep tho.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
So you're saying there's nothing that can be done at all basically? Blimey, and we wonder why people don't feel like they are listened to.
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Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
Immigration on this scale is the symptom of the world’s problems, not the cause, in my view.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I mean I’m all ears. But I’ve not heard anyone on any side come up with a workable proposal.
There’s a difference between not being listened to and asking for something that can’t be done.
If there was a serious anti immigration proposal you wouldn’t have the likes of Tice and Farage fannying about, any Tory govt worth their salt would have done it. They’re ideologically aligned, they’re not squeamish, their voters want it. Why do you think the most anti immigration govt in decades has overseen a record rise in immigration?
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
We're not too far off huge levels of population displacement due to climate change. Where are they all going to go?
Nick
Administrator
Staying with Tony, D'oD and SBT surely?
Although I'm sure we can put them up in Luxury hotels.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I’ll play devils advocate a bit, there is a significant pull factor from western nations as well as global push factors. We aren’t making enough babies and everything falls apart economically with an ageing population. See Japan, which is often to gold standard for anti immigration people.
So we could have policies around encouraging people to have kids, but that’s not quick, it’s actually quite hard to do because as people get richer they just don’t want as many, and it’s likely to mean huge tax raises to pay for childcare/benefit/education up front before the kids become taxpayers.
nicksar
Well-Known Member
No not because of immigrants mate, hopefully the new laws will help speed up new house builds, something needs to be done on affordability,and security of tenure for people renting off private landlords.
My eldest Son (42) has just managed to buy his first home (Landlord wanted to sell) and luckily after an arduous process he and his wife got a mortgage...the repayments are frightening tbh but he has a very good job.
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David O'Day
Well-Known Member
wtf are you talking about? You were wondering yesterday why I think you are a bit weird, well this is an example.
Nick
Administrator
Learn to read and you might understand.
David O'Day
Well-Known Member
I did and it is you being weird and pulling my name out into a conversation I have nothing currently to do with. it's test book you being a weird c**t again.
Understand?
