Nick
Administrator
Test book? Ironic you call everybody thick.
Dublin (Ireland) Stabbings (43 Viewers)
- Thread starter Nick
- Start date
Test book? Ironic you call everybody thick.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
A lot to agree with in that post, but let's be honest, a lot of people thought brexit and the tories would sort these issues out.
Not only did they not do that, but immigration is through the roof and they trashed the economy for the majority of the population as well, (though their spiv mates have done very well out of the last 13 years).
Some of us saw the writing onthe wall a long time ago so why youre correct to say that having these concerns doesn't make you far right and not everyone should be dismissed as such maybe some people should not be so dismissive of 'the lefties we saw what was coming and maybe just might be worth listening to.
My genuine concern is that if one of the two major parties can’t get a grip and at least put a proper plan in place, then we’re on for Farage mk 2 or worse like a lot of the rest of Europe. Unsustainable is a tricky one to answer but pressure will continue on public services and housing (if I hear one more time this is purely down to austerity I’m likely to put my head through the wall - increasing and ageing population are huge factors as is the general health of the nation in terms of nhs)
Im just a numbers/logic man and the numbers don’t stack up. I’m sure I could dig up plenty of figures but here’s one…between 1970 and 1995 the population increased by 2.3m. Between 1995 and 2020 it increased by 8.1m. I don’t need to look at house building stats to know they haven’t kept up…but I do know one of the main reasons young people don’t have kids is lack of property security/inability to buy a home which in turn impacts birth rates. I also know that with since the financial crash and pandemic and chuck in a bit of Brexit (for Tony) the economy and productivity have not kept up either
I don’t know the answer and it might sound harsh but things like dependents of those studying here having automatic visa rights should never been allowed and I can’t believe it’s only now being addressed. The actual student numbers themselves don’t quite add up for me either…how/why have they suddenly doubled/trebled and where have the extra available places come from ?!
. The humanitarian routes will be what they’ll be and we should always do our bit. We can’t keep just importing 100s thousands of workers per annum long term though, not with the number of economically inactive (2m of which want to work - there must be ways to help them). Saying all that I do think numbers might settle down a bit compared to 2022/2023 over the next year or two….obviously dependent on wars etc. let’s hope so anyway
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
My genuine concern is that if one of the two major parties can’t get a grip and at least put a proper plan in place, then we’re on for Farage mk 2 or worse like a lot of the rest of Europe. Unsustainable is a tricky one to answer but pressure will continue on public services and housing (if I hear one more time this is purely down to austerity I’m likely to put my head through the wall - increasing and ageing population are huge factors as is the general health of the nation in terms of nhs)
Im just a numbers/logic man and the numbers don’t stack up. I’m sure I could dig up plenty of figures but here’s one…between 1970 and 1995 the population increased by 2.3m. Between 1995 and 2020 it increased by 8.1m. I don’t need to look at house building stats to know they haven’t kept up…but I do know one of the main reasons young people don’t have kids is lack of property security/inability to buy a home which in turn impacts birth rates. I also know that with since the financial crash and pandemic and chuck in a bit of Brexit (for Tony) the economy and productivity have not kept up either
I don’t know the answer and it might sound harsh but things like dependents of those studying here having automatic visa rights should never been allowed and I can’t believe it’s only now being addressed. The actual student numbers themselves don’t quite add up for me either…how/why have they suddenly doubled/trebled and where have the extra available places come from ?!
Saying all that I do think numbers might settle down a bit compared to 2022/2023 over the next year or two….obviously dependent on wars etc. let’s hope so anyway
The numbers will absolutely settle down. And Starmer is going to crow about how he did what the Tories couldn’t. And it’s all their own fault for not being honest about immigration and its drivers.
Students pay for our education services and generally leave or become economically productive. Frankly I want more of the best choosing here rather than the states and staying on ideally.
But all these ideas are fiddling around the edges. You claim housing is to blame for birth rate and I agree to an extent (I’d have a bigger family if I had more room) but it’s a phenomenon across western nations because that’s what happens when you’re rich. There’s a reason African birth rates are so high. It’s a wall against poverty.
The fact is when people are richer they care less about having a big family. And we’ve seen this across time and cultures again and again. It’s a pretty solid iron law.
But again the earliest any baby boomer strategy could pay off is 18 years+, probably more like 30-50. What do you do in the mean time?
I won’t get into public services. We won’t agree. But you’re still failing to address the point which is that even if we want to reduce immigration, and we have for 13 years, we literally can’t.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Yes. They pay taxes, use services less than natives, and often arrive after education and leave before retirement making them cheaper at each end too.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I wish people would admit that their issue is culture. Let’s all be honest here. No one has issues with Aussies or Yanks or even Germans coming over here. It’s not about services, it’s not about housing, it’s not about crime, it’s about cultures not mixing well and bringing practices we don’t like or think we’ve left behind as a society. We got the EE chavs and a load of low skill men from Africa and the ME/Asia.
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
My genuine concern is that if one of the two major parties can’t get a grip and at least put a proper plan in place, then we’re on for Farage mk 2 or worse like a lot of the rest of Europe. Unsustainable is a tricky one to answer but pressure will continue on public services and housing (if I hear one more time this is purely down to austerity I’m likely to put my head through the wall - increasing and ageing population are huge factors as is the general health of the nation in terms of nhs)
Im just a numbers/logic man and the numbers don’t stack up. I’m sure I could dig up plenty of figures but here’s one…between 1970 and 1995 the population increased by 2.3m. Between 1995 and 2020 it increased by 8.1m. I don’t need to look at house building stats to know they haven’t kept up…but I do know one of the main reasons young people don’t have kids is lack of property security/inability to buy a home which in turn impacts birth rates. I also know that with since the financial crash and pandemic and chuck in a bit of Brexit (for Tony) the economy and productivity have not kept up either
I don’t know the answer and it might sound harsh but things like dependents of those studying here having automatic visa rights should never been allowed and I can’t believe it’s only now being addressed. The actual student numbers themselves don’t quite add up for me either…how/why have they suddenly doubled/trebled and where have the extra available places come from ?!
Saying all that I do think numbers might settle down a bit compared to 2022/2023 over the next year or two….obviously dependent on wars etc. let’s hope so anyway
Fair points, but at the other end of the scale, if we don't keep increasing our population social care and benefits for the elderly is going to collapse.
Politicians need to start been honest about this.
If we make the housing market affordable for the young, thus massively downgrading the cost of housing while simultaneously pushing up the cost of care in old age most people are going to have a fucking melt down.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
I don't believe for a second the left really want to do anything about it tbh and I don't think the Tories are competent enough. I'm really not sure I agree with Shmmeee that there's no answer either but within the collective minds of our politicians there probably isn't. I think a lot of people are going to end up politically homeless. Does that mean the rise of a 'far right' party? I hope not and don't think so as we're not really like that as a country... its Tory, Labour, or nothing for most.
PS. I'm also aware many on the left feel politically homeless with blows with the wind Starmer leading the Labour Party. The next election will be decided by people holding their noses at the polling station I think. Inspiring stuff.
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TomRad85
Well-Known Member
I wish people would admit that their issue is culture. Let’s all be honest here. No one has issues with Aussies or Yanks or even Germans coming over here. It’s not about services, it’s not about housing, it’s not about crime, it’s about cultures not mixing well and bringing practices we don’t like or think we’ve left behind as a society. We got the EE chavs and a load of low skill men from Africa and the ME/Asia.
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
This post is spot on. Its absolutely about culture.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
You’re seeing a rise of politically homeless all over. And while I think it’s partly to do with a limited scope political consensus and partly to do with social media polarization, I think the elephant in the room is post about 1979 governments haven’t actually had that much control over much in their country and globalised forces play a much bigger role.
Greggs
Well-Known Member
I mean in terms of a one off payment. Are countries paid to take immigrants?
Also, how do the immigrants that don't work or contribute to society pay taxes? I doubt many pay council tax without assistance from some sort of financial aid through a government.
Nick
Administrator
I wish people would admit that their issue is culture. Let’s all be honest here. No one has issues with Aussies or Yanks or even Germans coming over here. It’s not about services, it’s not about housing, it’s not about crime, it’s about cultures not mixing well and bringing practices we don’t like or think we’ve left behind as a society. We got the EE chavs and a load of low skill men from Africa and the ME/Asia.
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
Think it also depends on the intention of people.
I'd happily do a one-in-one out with a lazy, benefit scrounger who was born here with somebody who wants to come over and graft from somewhere else!
Also, the culture of Aussies, Americans and Germans is more in line with ours. The hotel I mentioned where I saw first hand was turned into a shanty town of rubbish, bikes, shopping trolleys and just rubbish thrown everywhere. Have a drive down Foleshill Road by Culworth Court and see the state of it.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Well most do. That’s the point. I don’t think there’s a payment, who would pay?
Housing is obviously not the only factor with regard to birth rate but it is one of the main ones.
We can’t totally control all immigration, as you say there’s factors like wars etc and we will always have some skills shortages but we can certainly have better plans in place to deal with higher numbers and also minimise requirements for certain skills longer term etc (said before I’d be focussing on encouraging people into certain roles with training/retraining, bursaries, reduced tuition fees, higher wages in certainly sectors like social care etc)
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
There will be an answer I agree. But while people are cheering on nonsense like Rwanda we haven't got a chance, it's not grown up politics.
Its like simultaneously talking about securing your borders while stripping border control to the bone, people have to stop buying in to this shit and seeing if there's a serious plan behind the rheororic, which in the case of the tories 9 times out of 10 there's not.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The thing is a lot of this is just honest cultural difference. I always remember living in foleshill next to a Romanian family on a road with a fair few old white ladies as well as Asian families. The old ladies were terrified of the Romanians, they saw them stood out the front (house was tiny), them going through bins (standard in Romania where rubbish is no longer your property unlike here). But these were the loveliest people you could meet, and the best neighbours I’ve ever had. It was an honest mixup in cultures.
Greggs
Well-Known Member
The European Commission?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Do we have a deal for that? I honestly don’t know. Maybe, like we pay Rwanda. But as we generally take fewer than EU countries of be surprised.
Well we did have a rebate, don't the ins and outs,then obviously Cameron tried to get more or something else.
I wish people would admit that their issue is culture. Let’s all be honest here. No one has issues with Aussies or Yanks or even Germans coming over here. It’s not about services, it’s not about housing, it’s not about crime, it’s about cultures not mixing well and bringing practices we don’t like or think we’ve left behind as a society. We got the EE chavs and a load of low skill men from Africa and the ME/Asia.
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
Integration of some migrants maybe but that’s a two way street. I can only really talk for me but I don’t think it’s just culture for many though. I always said with Brexit my issue was lack of control ie focus on the countrys needs rather than total free movement. I’d would rather have indian, Philippine, Australian nurses, doctors and social care workers waived through than say Italian and Spanish baristas and waiters/waitresses under FoM (I do like a good coffee mind) - a broad brush stereotyping example obviously, just to make the point !
Let’s be honest it’s been a shitshow and another nail in the Tory coffin. No advance planning for what the country needs and bravermann pissing about trying to ‘stop the boats’ while seemingly abdicating responsibility for the 1.1m waived through on her watch (3/4s of which were probably justifiable/needed this year - my issue is the lax approach on the rest/overall)
Anyway, nowt we can all do so just see how it all plays out…and focus on the city win !!!
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Ah the populists paradox: the only politicians radical enough to propose policies out of the norm are also too incompetent to implement them.
You’ve got to ask the question though, if everyone Labour and Tories are just too crap to do what they’ve said, maybe it’s just not doable without severe economic harm?
I think you’re getting there, but it’s really about ethnicity more than nationality. People like to talk about how they don’t mind Australian or German or American neighbours or whatever - if those Aussies or Germans or Yanks happen to have brown faces and headscarves then it becomes a different proposition altogether.I wish people would admit that their issue is culture. Let’s all be honest here. No one has issues with Aussies or Yanks or even Germans coming over here. It’s not about services, it’s not about housing, it’s not about crime, it’s about cultures not mixing well and bringing practices we don’t like or think we’ve left behind as a society. We got the EE chavs and a load of low skill men from Africa and the ME/Asia.
Maybe then we’d focus on how best to build community rather than side issues
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Explain the antipathy towards Polish and Romanian immigrants then.
People want people who speak the language and as far as possible follow the customs of the culture. Generally speaking middle class people from anywhere do this fine, and working class people from similar cultures do. But working class people from other cultures are less likely to integrate and cause the sort of social fears you see IMO.
There’s definitely racism, but I don’t think it’s the majority. There’s no evidence of widespread racism in society. All indicators are trending downwards generally. It’s just that those who care enough to start a party or “protest” tend to be the racists. Not my ex mother in law who is just a bit uncomfortable with living alongside people she doesn’t understand on the same level as she’s used to.
You can joke about not wanting to hear other languages, or headscarves, or whatever. But it’s that feeling that you aren’t secure because you aren’t with “your people” that’s very human. I think the states handles immigration better because their culture is no culture almost and it’s so big it’s easy to get along with your neighbours cos you don’t see them.
Just as an example, I’ve just been to the corner shop, the lad there is lovely, but it’s really hard just to have a basic convo with him as you do at your local shop. It’s a tiny thing and on its own completely meaningless, but each small uncomfortable interaction adds up over time.
Polish and Romanian immigrants speak a different language and have noticeably different customs to English people - the very definition of ethnicity.
….because they’re often, if not typically of a different ethnicity to English people.
Como
Well-Known Member
‘Remember who we are’: riots, race, and the end of the ‘Irish welcome’
www.theguardian.com
Quite a good summation, gives some of the history.
‘Remember who we are’: riots, race, and the end of the ‘Irish welcome’
Unrest in Dublin shocked many in a country seemingly untroubled by immigration. But as elsewhere in Europe, the far right is rising
Quite a good summation, gives some of the history.
LastGarrison
Well-Known Member
With regards to the student numbers a large part comes down to the reintroduction of the post study work visa in 2020, coupled with an added bump in numbers coming from people who didn’t travel in Covid times and the late opening back up of competitor markets such as Australia and New Zealand.My genuine concern is that if one of the two major parties can’t get a grip and at least put a proper plan in place, then we’re on for Farage mk 2 or worse like a lot of the rest of Europe. Unsustainable is a tricky one to answer but pressure will continue on public services and housing (if I hear one more time this is purely down to austerity I’m likely to put my head through the wall - increasing and ageing population are huge factors as is the general health of the nation in terms of nhs)
Im just a numbers/logic man and the numbers don’t stack up. I’m sure I could dig up plenty of figures but here’s one…between 1970 and 1995 the population increased by 2.3m. Between 1995 and 2020 it increased by 8.1m. I don’t need to look at house building stats to know they haven’t kept up…but I do know one of the main reasons young people don’t have kids is lack of property security/inability to buy a home which in turn impacts birth rates. I also know that with since the financial crash and pandemic and chuck in a bit of Brexit (for Tony) the economy and productivity have not kept up either
I don’t know the answer and it might sound harsh but things like dependents of those studying here having automatic visa rights should never been allowed and I can’t believe it’s only now being addressed. The actual student numbers themselves don’t quite add up for me either…how/why have they suddenly doubled/trebled and where have the extra available places come from ?!
Saying all that I do think numbers might settle down a bit compared to 2022/2023 over the next year or two….obviously dependent on wars etc. let’s hope so anyway
This has resulted in a massive surge of students, mainly from South Asia and Nigeria, whom for many have the long term aim of settling and working in the UK. Student visas issued to Indian students now outnumber Chinese students.
However, following the post-Covid surge the number has plateaued this year and will probably see a drop over the next year, particularly from Nigeria, following the decision to withdraw the dependents visas which particularly effects the postgraduate students which is mainly where the surge in numbers has come from.
Why do people come to the UK? To study
Romanians living next very pleasant friendly etc,, family though so who knows what a hmo full would be, Poles lived out front, loud drinking but hard working, but I did have to poke my head out the door and threaten to call police to stop him kicking another eastern gentlemans head in who just happened to be passing.