shmmeee
Well-Known Member
If we’re just saying stuff isn’t a counter argument then I say this isn’t an argument.
Checkmate
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- Thread starter Brighton Sky Blue
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If we’re just saying stuff isn’t a counter argument then I say this isn’t an argument.
Checkmate
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I like Sheaf a lot, and I think he's a good player, but the way he gets talked about (yet again here on this thread) is just over the top and ridiculous. It also has a massive negative effect towards Eccles, who gets a much harder time as a direct result. We need to upgrade Eccles, but not Sheaf. Yet Eccles has been as good as if not better than Sheaf this season... Eccles comes on, criticised after 5 seconds for the same kind of thing Sheaf does every 5 minutes. Eccles is a league 1 player, yet Sheaf should be in the premier league.
Sheaf missed games in the last two seasons:
11 wins
7 draws
1 loss
There are no actual counter-arguments to these facts, so other than 'you hate Sheaf', or, 'Josh Eccles isn't as good', it's just desperate whining. We just go on and beat Sunderland 3-0, Sheffield Wednesday 2-0, yet the same usual people: Something, something XG and progressive passing. Something, something Checkmate. Now it'll probably be; those draws in your stats would have been wins if he played.
My brother has autism and he doesn't even die on hills like this with so much plugging fingers in ears and blind idolisation, tantrums, and feet stomping. It's desperate.
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
Agree with most of this.
I like Sheaf and think he is a really good Championship player. However, Eccles is better than Sheaf and ridiculously underrated on here.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Potentially he’s not at the moment
D
Deleted member 9744
Guest
He's played far better than Sheaf this season. I think you are proving ESB's point.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Don’t agree it’s fine to disagree
Johhny Blue
Well-Known Member
C’mon Pete, That’s a whole different meaning without a full stop.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Sorry
Don’t agree, it’s ok not to agree
Sheaf is a better player than eccles in my opinion
Stats interesting when he doesn’t play though
Great_Expectations
Well-Known Member
Collins - 6 - excellent save second half, but poor with his feet/general decision making. Disappointed with that side of his game, especially as that’s his USP.
MVE - 6.5 - quieter game than previous few, but his pace was a threat offensively and helped us defensively a few times. Even psychologically it deters opposition wingers from trying to beat him for pace.
Thomas - 7.5 - another solid performance overall. Two great crunching tackles too.
Kitching - 7.5 - solid defensively other than getting caught out attempting to turn on the half way line, but recovered well. Some excellent and perfectly weighted forward balls too.
Bidwell - 6 - after a great few games he looked sloppy today. Poor distribution and decision making at vital times offensively.
Eccles - 7 - saw a lot of the ball and generally used it well. Broke up play as always when needed. Wish he had a slightly better passing range, but it is steadily improving.
Lati - 7 - solid enough and did a good job of being exactly that, solid. He’s obviously not going to make defence splitting passes. But I actually thought he constantly showed for the ball and keeping it simple isn’t a bad thing. Was just more evident today as both CMs lacked that killer forward pass.
COH - 7.5 - busy but not as effective. Constant threat on the ball and drifts out wide to make things happen.
Sakamoto - 8 - great finishes and buzzing with confidence. He was constantly an out ball and never shied away, even when receiving the ball in tricky situations in with lots of defenders around him. The Sakamoto - MVE combo can be frighteningly good.
Godden - 4.5 - feel harsh as I like him, but he was honestly a passenger. Appreciate his movement can make space for others, but we need more than that if we want play offs. Not fair as it’s not his game, but he can’t hold the ball up, which is needed when playing CF.
Wright - 7.5 - how confidence can change a player! Constantly wanting to take players on and showed improved movement too.
Subs
Palmer - 7 - good stuff mixed with the occasional sloppy moment. Looked lost out left. Positive impact again.
JDS - 6.5 - good cameo. More direct and offensive than previous games.
Simms - N/A.
MVE - 6.5 - quieter game than previous few, but his pace was a threat offensively and helped us defensively a few times. Even psychologically it deters opposition wingers from trying to beat him for pace.
Thomas - 7.5 - another solid performance overall. Two great crunching tackles too.
Kitching - 7.5 - solid defensively other than getting caught out attempting to turn on the half way line, but recovered well. Some excellent and perfectly weighted forward balls too.
Bidwell - 6 - after a great few games he looked sloppy today. Poor distribution and decision making at vital times offensively.
Eccles - 7 - saw a lot of the ball and generally used it well. Broke up play as always when needed. Wish he had a slightly better passing range, but it is steadily improving.
Lati - 7 - solid enough and did a good job of being exactly that, solid. He’s obviously not going to make defence splitting passes. But I actually thought he constantly showed for the ball and keeping it simple isn’t a bad thing. Was just more evident today as both CMs lacked that killer forward pass.
COH - 7.5 - busy but not as effective. Constant threat on the ball and drifts out wide to make things happen.
Sakamoto - 8 - great finishes and buzzing with confidence. He was constantly an out ball and never shied away, even when receiving the ball in tricky situations in with lots of defenders around him. The Sakamoto - MVE combo can be frighteningly good.
Godden - 4.5 - feel harsh as I like him, but he was honestly a passenger. Appreciate his movement can make space for others, but we need more than that if we want play offs. Not fair as it’s not his game, but he can’t hold the ball up, which is needed when playing CF.
Wright - 7.5 - how confidence can change a player! Constantly wanting to take players on and showed improved movement too.
Subs
Palmer - 7 - good stuff mixed with the occasional sloppy moment. Looked lost out left. Positive impact again.
JDS - 6.5 - good cameo. More direct and offensive than previous games.
Simms - N/A.
Johhny Blue
Well-Known Member
Agree with most of that. One extra thing to note is Salomoto’s defensive game was great too
DrPoolittle
Well-Known Member
I disagree
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Stats like that are bollocks though, as there's too many variables, standard of opposition, who else was in the team, were we missing our better players too.
Looking at just this season 2 of the 3 wins without Sheaf were QPR and Sheffield Wednesday, 2 of the 3 relegation zone. Both teams you would expect us to beat.
Last season 5 or the 7 games we won without Sheaf were against bottom 8 or so teams who only managed 53 points or lower in the season (Reading, Rotherham, Birmingham, Stoke, and Huddersfield). Again for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win.
We didn't lose a single championship game when Kelly started last season, and won 50% of our games. Our MVP.
Knowl used to use these figures a lot on twitter about Kane, as our record with him playing was poor. But it wasn't poor because of one player, too many variables, especially when there's 22 men, Plus subs, Plus officiating, weather conditions, etc going on.
Eccles has had a good season, he's turning into a solid player (Apart from his corners), but his range or passing, and all round game isn't as good as sheaf's, despite him playing slightly better at times this season. It's why when fit, he always starts.
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Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I've said there would be some denial over the stats, but this is even better value than I had imagined. You're completely incapable of seeing Sheaf in anything other than diamonds and gold, and were at Eccles' throat 5 minutes after he came on for him the other day. This is why it gets called out, and you are proving my point over and over again.
When coming back into the squad this season, we went on a four game losing streak, the first two games were against Bristol City and Rotherham. Let me guess, there were too many variables there: It was due to the weather, or the moon cycle? There must be something else you can clutch straws at.
The season before we also picked up valuable points against very strong teams, but you don't mention that? You do also realise the games 'for a team finishing in the play offs games you would expect to win' we were actually only 13th in the table when he went out injured (having lost 3 of the last 4), and nowhere near the playoffs. We went on an amazing run which propelled us into the playoffs whilst he was out. We actually only won twice again when he then came back again.
Like I said, I know people with mental disabilities that don't behave as childish as some of you with this die hard cult/charade. He's a really good player, but this obsession and point of view he is somehow a million miles above some very comparable players is really stupid. As is the inability to digest facts without projecting or plugging fingers in ears.
I'd say they're both very similar but tbh I was a little disappointed the other day, thought he'd seize the day so to speak but to be honest sitting where I do I couldn't really form an honest opinion.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.
They are both good players, and both very similar. However Sheaf is slightly better despite Eccles good performances. It's just a fact, it's why Robins starts him when he's fit, and why he's made him captain. Preferably you'd play both of them.
Whoscored rates them similar with Sheaf edging It despite Eccles having to MOTMs.
I'm leaving you to it now and putting you on ignore as it's just boring now.
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shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The “stats” you are using are basically the graphs @Philosorapter makes. This is the conclusion of your logic:
View attachment 24587
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.
They are both good players, and both very similar. However Sheaf is slightly better despite Eccles good performances. It's just a fact, it's why Robins starts him when he's fit, and why he's made him captain. Preferably you'd play both of them.
Whoscored rates them similar with Sheaf edging It despite Eccles having to MOTMs.
I'm leaving you to it now and putting you on ignore as it's just boring now.
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'I'm blocking you' and 'Here's a graph with Jordan Shipley on it'. Not a single counter-argument or rational alternative discussion point raised. I would say I am surprised, but given the nature of this whole thing, I'm really not. It just proves my points over again, and demonstrates there is no maturity to be had. In debate, comprehension, or in humble defeat.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
You're the only person on the forum with a weird obsession about Sheaf. If anyone mentions him, Or has a slight dig at Eccles you're over it like a rash. Therefore the only cult must be you.
They are both good players, and both very similar. However Sheaf is slightly better despite Eccles good performances. It's just a fact, it's why Robins starts him when he's fit, and why he's made him captain. Preferably you'd play both of them.
Whoscored rates them similar with Sheaf edging It despite Eccles having to MOTMs.
I'm leaving you to it now and putting you on ignore as it's just boring now.
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I would say Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent which is why I get frustrated with the former.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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To be fair to ESB1, I think one of his frustrations, its certainly one of mine, is the amount of times Sheaf puts us in trouble, either through a poor simple pass in our half or through losing the ball in a dangerous area through dithering.
It happens far too often for a player of his ability.
Sky Blue Pete
Well-Known Member
Agreed
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
Not quite sure where we're going here, are we saying people with mental disabilities don't point out Sheffield Wednesday are shit?
Johhny Blue
Well-Known Member
Hi Stupot,Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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FYI your “blocker” key isn’t working
stupot07
Well-Known Member
I think we're all frustrated by that. It's an old habit he's slipped into again, whether that's lack of concentration, lack of options, lack of movement in front of him, Or a combination of all of those.
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Cally Fedora
Well-Known Member
Please not comparison by stats. They mean nothing. My opinion on it - Sheaf is currently a bit better than Eccles but Eccles has time to become better than Sheaf and probably will. They’re both very good championship players.
TomRad85
Well-Known Member
Slightly prefer Sheaf, Eccles is also good though. Would still prefer either/or plus another personally. Let's see who we can bring in in Jan.
Agree with comments above that Sheaf has pissed me off at times this season putting us in the shit. He's almost too confident, thinks he's got all the time in the world, but he's not quite Zidane unfortunately and can get caught out.
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Agree with comments above that Sheaf has pissed me off at times this season putting us in the shit. He's almost too confident, thinks he's got all the time in the world, but he's not quite Zidane unfortunately and can get caught out.
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Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
Sheaf is a far more expensive passer than Eccles. Here's their passing stats per 90 minutes this season. Despite playing less passes Eccles is more likely to pass backwards (22% of total passes) than Sheaf (15%). Sheaf makes more forward passes (38% compared to Eccles 29%) and play long accurate passes 5.5 compared to Eccles 3.5. Sheaf is therefore more progressive and expansive with his passing, which is what people have said we missed yesterday, and you clearly have taken an exception to.
Moreover, he contests more duels than Eccles, and although Eccles is better in the air, Sheaf makes more tackles and wins more duels. And also in an attacking third gets off more shots.
As Clint says, Sheaf has more ability but Eccles is more consistent this season. But we miss Sheaf as when it clicks, he really makes the team tick.
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Yes, they are both good players and have attributes that can be debated, but you are cherry picking again. We didn't miss Sheaf in the game we just won 2-0, neither in the one before where we won 3-0. In fact, the results in our matches he hasn't played in pretty much show we haven't missed him any time we have played. To come back from that and say 'he's 9% more likely to pass the ball forward'... It isn't the hot take you think it is, and being in such a flat out denial is just digging a bigger hole.
Here are some more stats for you: Tell me, based on these stats regarding 'going forward', which player would you rather have in your team?
There's one player here who has made twice the amount of chances created, assists more, dithers less, but he's not the one people are dying on a hill for... That same player apparently should be playing in league 1, but the other is the first name on the team sheet and premier league quality? The latest round of strawmen arguments regarding going forward seem to be a bit rusty according to this.
Come on, it is getting silly and even more desperate by the minute.
Frostie
Well-Known Member
Remove set pieces from the chances created?
Frostie
Well-Known Member
Agreed. New systems, new formations, new teammates & new styles of play don't just affect new players.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Ill explain the graph:
That’s the end of a couple of seasons ago IIRC, using Philosoraptors model to assign each player a score. They go up or down based on the result against the opposition, with increases and decreases scaled to the strength of the opposition. It’s a good model for a team and smooths out things like games players and opponents faced so far.
But applied to players, this team metric falls apart and starts judging Ryan Howley and Liam Kelly above Callum O’Hare and Gus Hamer. Because you’re using a crude team metric to try and compare individual players and the sport doesn’t work like that.
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I didn't say the only reason we won or lost was because of one player. I just pointed out that the patterns are ridiculously coincidental, and that this one particular player 'first name on the team sheet' is not missed based on our results. This graph has nothing to do with that and is just essentially being used as a diversion to avoid making any consessions or sensible debate on the points I've made.
Results are the biggest metric, above anything else, no matter what clowns want to start analysing ridiculously narrow variables by doing such things as 'removing set pieces' from 'attacking stats', or talking about 'forward passing'. That's become predictable, but it's pretty clear now there's just a deeper obsession with this one player that means even facts are being bended anyway. You are a smart guy, and you know all of this though.
Even more weirdly, one of the posters doing this even said a few weeks ago that Eccles had been probably been better than Sheaf this season, but has got so dizzy trying to defend the indefensible since, and have a pop at me because their mate is on the other side, that they've started digging holes at silly levels.
I hope both Sheaf and Eccles play tomorrow and have great games, and we get the win, but this is all very desperate.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Eccles takes set pieces, he's always going to create more chances, but you know that. Remove set pieces and his chance creation will be no greater than Sheaf's.
No one has said Eccles is league one and no one has said Sheaf is premier league quality. Robins sees Sheaf as one of the first names on the team sheet when he is fit, and most of us agree. No one said Eccles needs to drop out, for me Lati should
We Whilst we won't on Saturday, against one of the worst teams in the league our xG was poor, and quite a few have said we missed Sheaf more progressive passing, i.e. transitioning from defense through the thirds to the attacking third. We don't need him to create chances, we have Wright, O'Hare and Saka, we need to get the ball up to them quickly and accurately. The stats don't lie - Sheaf's passing is far more progressive than Eccles. He's a CDM that's his job, his job isn't to create chances per se.
The only strawman argument is yours.
There's room for both of them in a midfield, we have Wright, Sakamoto and O'Hare with plenty of creativity ahead of them.
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Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
I think you need to research what a strawman argument is. I'll accept you may well even know but are just using another deflection to avoid having to look at the real points however.
You're obsessed with Sheaf, proved by your inability to analyse his overall performances properly, awarding him man of the match 99% of the time, critising Eccles for things Sheaf does but when that happens to Sheaf, turn the other cheek. Also threatening to block people because you can't handle being called out...
The only people that have said we missed Sheaf on Saturday are generally the ones in the same cult as you, that keep popping their heads up and embarrasing themselves because they cannot fairly analyse one player who in their eyes is flawless. It is damaging because despite for whatever reason, your selective reading, people often say Eccles is a league 1 player.
Like I said, I hope Sheaf and Eccles both play tomorrow and have great games. This weird tinted glasses shit is bizarre though, and has gotten so stupidly desperate.