We voted for Brexit because we didn't want a bunch of unelected people from the British public telling us what to do, still now we have an unelected group sitting in the HoL helping tell us what to do. It's the 21st century now, it shouldn't be beyond the will of man to sort something out to make that place more meaningful to the country
Do you want to discuss boring politics? (145 Viewers)
- Thread starter mrtrench
- Start date
duffer
Well-Known Member
Without wanting to re-open the Brexit debate, the 'unelected' thing was always a bit of a myth.
Is the European Union governed by ‘unelected bureaucrats’?
Written by Eponine Howarth (LLB) The opinion that the European Union is governed by ‘unelected bureaucrats’ is commonly held by europhobes and an argument wielded by the Leave campaign in the refer…
blogs.lse.ac.uk
Regardless, agreed, the House of Lords is an ongoing shambles.
Starmer said he'd reform it if elected, but then he's said a lot of stuff.
I think his usual path for these things is Promise -> Pledge -> Ambition -> Dream. I wouldn't hold your breath, basically.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
Shows how bad the state of politics in this country is when it's been the Lords that have stopped some batshit legislation being passed.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
I agree about it needing to be a balance to the Commons, but if that is true it has to be removed from it. At the moment its the Commons who get to pick the appointees, so first question is who should do that instead? How do you remove the influence of politics from selection?
I like the idea of posts being offered to those in academia and are experts on the particular area they're in control of. But again, who picks them? Should an industry body make the nominations and can even that be free of political infleunce?
One thing I would be wary of is things like business. Highly successful business people tend to be so because their consideration is almost solely themselves and often people get exploited so they can get higher returns. You know full well it'd be saying low tax, deregulation and reduce pay/employment rights and these are not things that are good for the country overall.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Id have a series of Lords that represent different areas of interest decided by some committee, but that’s just shifting the problem left. Some kind of nomination process from the public or trade bodies but then who owns those? I think at best you can make one big vulnerability several smaller ones and make it hard to tip the balance.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
Starmer is a complete clown if he thought cosying up to the right wing rags was going to stop this,sort of nonsense.
clint van damme
Well-Known Member
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Would be surprised if they don't have relationships with Infosys as well
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duffer
Well-Known Member
Ireland has a system that looks a bit better than ours, but still is criticised and it's also up for reform (says Wiki).
Seanad Éireann - Wikipedia
Off the top of my head, I'd make it an elected position, at least in the majority, and those elections based on PR so that minority voices (right, left, and other) get a better voice.
A large salary, a limited term, and the highest standards of public office mandated and enforced by constitutional and criminal law rather than by convention.
The only way to get better politicians, imho, is to break the endless cycle of cronyism and corruption.
No second jobs if you're an MP or "Senator" (if that's where we're heading). No non-executive board positions. No acceptance of jollies or hospitality. Full disclosure of potential conflicts of interest where family is involved.
In essence, the same rules that the low level seat-warmers like me are obliged to follow if we're dealing with potential suppliers or family members as part of our role.
Enforcement and investigation of the above rules conducted by an independent judiciary, rather that the politicians, or a subset thereof, themselves.
Doubt it'll ever happen though...
Earlsdon_Skyblue1
Well-Known Member
HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says
Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.
www.bbc.co.uk
How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says
Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.www.bbc.co.uk
How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
Because we still need more trains, even if we are so fucking useless as delivering anything it costs ten times what it should.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The fact it's been half cancelled after 15 years is another national embarrassment, to cancel it completely would just expose what a joke country the UK has become.HS2 to Birmingham may cost £65bn, railway boss says
Sir Jonathan Thompson says inflation has added up to £10bn to cost of London to Birmingham stretch.www.bbc.co.uk
How on earth has this not been scrapped yet? Most of the useful bits have been cancelled ages ago and now the costs are wrong again.
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D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I'd say half cancelling shows that more. They cancel the bit that's actually needed(!) and then keep the rest because of vanity / embarrasment that they can't let it be a seen as a total failure.
Should have been all or nothing.
skybluetony176
Well-Known Member
I was reading yesterday that the government is struggling to find anyone interested in buying all the land back from the cancelled phase 2 meaning that phase 2 is still a possibility with one of the biggest expenses already settled.
I think that there needs to be an enquiry into it first on how not only the price escalated so much and so quickly but why we can’t do it as cheap as other countries facing the same issues. Take Japan for instance, they’ve built a new bullet line in the same period as we’ve been building HS2 and not only did it arrive on time and on budget it was also tunnelled for the most part (about 80% IIRC) at about half the cost per mile as HS2. Something don’t add up.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Phase 2 will happen at some point. It’s whether we do it now or spend loads more.
This country is such a joke and totally unable to complete long term projects because every time a Tory PM needs a boost we cut a ton of investment which means we can’t take advantage of consistency and stability of plans to lower costs.
The UK govt is fucking terrible customer and a risky investment. How the Tories have the reputation for fiscal responsibility which shit like this is beyond me. Just constant short term thinking.
This country is such a joke and totally unable to complete long term projects because every time a Tory PM needs a boost we cut a ton of investment which means we can’t take advantage of consistency and stability of plans to lower costs.
The UK govt is fucking terrible customer and a risky investment. How the Tories have the reputation for fiscal responsibility which shit like this is beyond me. Just constant short term thinking.
Brighton Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
After what Liz Truss did they should be out of office for a generation. Bet they’ll be back in after a term once Starmer has failed to solve the problems Rishi has left him with.
Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)
Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist
Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
yourshortlist.com
It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence
I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)
Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist
Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence
I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
It’s treasury brain. I forget the exact details so excuse me for errors but read quite a few things on it recently and its to do with how we categorise it and how we don’t put cash aside for the project and its open to being reallocated according to political needs of the day where other countries do something differently that makes it harder.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
One of the senior people involved in HS1, who said he offered to advise and couldn't even got a response, said that one of the very simple and obvious issues was that none of the tenders went out with a figure for budget so contractors were just inflating figures and hoping for the best knowing so much work needed doing they'd have to accept something from pretty much every company bidding.
Sky_Blue_Dreamer
Well-Known Member
But if we want to keep specific MP's for a constituency, and having an actual elected local representative is a good thing IMO. PR is absolute shit for that.Ireland has a system that looks a bit better than ours, but still is criticised and it's also up for reform (says Wiki).
Seanad Éireann - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
Off the top of my head, I'd make it an elected position, at least in the majority, and those elections based on PR so that minority voices (right, left, and other) get a better voice.
A large salary, a limited term, and the highest standards of public office mandated and enforced by constitutional and criminal law rather than by convention.
The only way to get better politicians, imho, is to break the endless cycle of cronyism and corruption.
No second jobs if you're an MP or "Senator" (if that's where we're heading). No non-executive board positions. No acceptance of jollies or hospitality. Full disclosure of potential conflicts of interest where family is involved.
In essence, the same rules that the low level seat-warmers like me are obliged to follow if we're dealing with potential suppliers or family members as part of our role.
Enforcement and investigation of the above rules conducted by an independent judiciary, rather that the politicians, or a subset thereof, themselves.
Doubt it'll ever happen though...
Like you, I want PR to be included in some way as a better representation of the overall mood of the country, even if it would allow some of the lunatic fringes a bit more of a say, but I don't think it can be at the expense of a local representative in govt.
Hence why I've in the past suggested keep FPTP for the Commons as it is, but elect the upper house based on PR, using the overall percentage of votes each party has received. One election, two houses elected using differing criteria
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Are there any stats for how many people have actually ever used their local MP to represent them at anything. No idea but gut feeling is its a very small percentage
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
I have
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
For whatever reason budgets are attached to financial years and financial years are attached to parliamentary terms, the short-termism is by design really.
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Let’s be honest, this is a public sector/civil service issue as much as a specific government one. A quick google indicates this. One example article, plenty of others (No surprise to see Fujitsu milking the governments teats again)
Biggest UK Government Project Failures | YourShortlist
Here are seven of the biggest UK government project failures & why they happened.
It’s probably why I’m not more left wing…my heart is but my head says give government more cash and watch it get wasted. See SNP/Scotland for more evidence
I do agree though that it would be bordering on hilarious for the Tories to try to claim fiscal competency after recent years. An absolute shitshow. I also agree that you need consistency from government and all the flip flopping/delays in decision making on projects only adds to cost or reduces benefits long term
Large organisations often have massive project failures, it is not specific to the public sector. Most companies don't deal with projects of anywhere near the complexity either.
Flying Fokker
Well-Known Member
How come them down south can do this?
www.theguardian.com
Woking council declares bankruptcy with £1.2bn deficit
Previous Tory leadership embarked on risky investment spree involving hotels and skyscrapers
SkyblueDad
Well-Known Member
The Post Office saga will finish the Tories there are ex-ministers and current ones up to the grubby necks in it including our PM.
And Mr Banks and other victims ain’t letting go.
And Mr Banks and other victims ain’t letting go.
Ian1779
Well-Known Member
It should you are right…. But then so should have Grenfell.
Lee Anderson has resigned. Tough times
All this goes to show (again) is that Sunak was never going to placate the right of the party. Said a few times before he’d have been better off being his own man, clearing the shit out and then being in a better place to distance himself from stuff that’s happened over recent years. No chance now though
All this goes to show (again) is that Sunak was never going to placate the right of the party. Said a few times before he’d have been better off being his own man, clearing the shit out and then being in a better place to distance himself from stuff that’s happened over recent years. No chance now though
D
Deleted member 5849
Guest
He was just best buddies with him in a video yesterday!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
Most of the prosecutions and cover ups were under the Blair years