Something urgent needs to happen (16 Viewers)

[robbiekeane]

Martial Arts are traditionally taught as part of a national curriculum in Japan. They’re optional now, but were mandatory until about 10-15 years ago.

This is customary in most of the Far East.

I get the point that Tatsu wouldn’t start putting opposing players in a Jiu Jitsu hold and snapping their arms off, but still.

Personally, I think the definition of racial stereotyping is being taken too far on here, especially considering it isn’t racist or offensive to assume that a Japanese man knows martial arts.

Mate honestly what?

The issue is reducing an athlete to a stereotype based on his nationality…assuming any Japanese person knows martial arts is as absurd as assuming every British person is an expert in tea drinking.
On top of that as has already been pointed out saying kung fu which is Chinese is just limping all different Asian cultures into one homogenous group which is not only inaccurate but also offensive.

Why the fuck does this stuff even need to be explained? Truly wild that it’s being defended

 

---

[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

I’m still surprised they both missed it where they were but I’m also absolutely ok to accept that neither of them did see it

I'm of the same opinion as you but where do we go to now.Can the club bring it to the referees association attention whom judgeing by most peoples thoughts is a waste of time. He can't get off scott free can we as fans bring to the presses attention in any way because this is thuggery and has no place on any sports field.

 

[Grendel]

Mate honestly what?

The issue is reducing an athlete to a stereotype based on his nationality…assuming any Japanese person knows martial arts is as absurd as assuming every British person is an expert in tea drinking.
On top of that as has already been pointed out saying kung fu which is Chinese is just limping all different Asian cultures into one homogenous group which is not only inaccurate but also offensive.

Why the fuck does this stuff even need to be explained? Truly wild that it’s being defended

Many on here have called Welsh fans and players Sheep Shaggers if you look through posting history

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Many on here have called Welsh fans and players Sheep Shaggers if you look through posting history

Some have called Taxis if you look through posting history.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

Back on topic - how could the fella that broke Allens cheekbone/eye socket get away with it as the ref spotted it and gave a free kick yet Matt Godden gets a ban retrospectively for a dive (was it against Fulham) when the ref pulled him up on it?

Or is my grey matter getting the Godden incident incorrect?

 

[wingy]

So I've 'lost my head' by replying - Have you also? Or is that reserved for someone confronting your view?

It is not my 'ideology' it is indeed a fact that basing assumptions on heritage or physical characteristics is stereotyping.

To infer that because someone is Japanese, they must do martial arts, is to make a stereotype.

Must all Brits play Cricket? Take afternoon tea? Go Morris dancing? Must all French people eat snails? Smell of garlic? Be arrogant?

If we had knowledge that he is a Judoka, etc, then it is an acceptable comment. But assumption/stereotyping of 'The East' is reductive.

I don't need you to educate me on Japanese culture, I've spent time living and working there. I also have Japanese friends, none of whom are representative of your view.

They are individual people with individual values, interests, and traits, which is the crux of the issue.

Sent from my SM-S911B using Tapatalk

Are they still Mysoginists who go to the club every night?

 

[olderskyblue]

Back on topic - how could the fella that broke Allens cheekbone/eye socket get away with it as the ref spotted it and gave a free kick yet Matt Godden gets a ban retrospectively for a dive (was it against Fulham) when the ref pulled him up on it?

Or is my grey matter getting the Godden incident incorrect?

We got the pen and scored didn’t we?

so, ref dealt with it, but was later found to be wrong (tricked?), hence Godden’s punishment.

can’t see much of a difference between that and Allen’s incident In how it should be looked at.

 

[Skyblueweeman]

We got the pen and scored didn’t we?

so, ref dealt with it, but was later found to be wrong (tricked?), hence Godden’s punishment.

can’t see much of a difference between that and Allen’s incident In how it should be looked at.

Like I said, grey matter and all that.

 

[TewkesburySkyBlue]

.It seems to me the assaults on Jamie Allen and Sakamoto are being brushed under the carpet for what ever reason
'The ref gave a free kick so that's the end of it?' What total cobblers.
Personally if it were me I'd bring a private prosecution against Bernard for ABH and see him in court.
Thug.
The Saka incident is potentially just as bad.
The player, whoever it was should be made to face to consequences of his thuggery .
Far be it from me to tell Doug King what to do ( well OK then I will ) but I'd talk to the chairman /owner of both the Sheff W and Millwall and tell them we intend to make a big deal of both incidents unless they take appropriate action against the respective players and manager/ coach if they encouraged such behaviour .
If they would not then full steam ahead and see them in court .
This is supposed to be the beautiful game not Saturday night in Glasgow city centre.( Apologies to my Scottish friends)

 

[COVKIDSNEVERQUIT]

It's all against us.

The last time Kitching stood up to a player he got sent off for getting headbutted.

It does make you wonder, Kitching sent off, Allen, player not sent off, Sakamoto, player not sent off, is there a hidden agenda.

 

[itsabuzzard]

.It seems to me the assaults on Jamie Allen and Sakamoto are being brushed under the carpet for what ever reason
'The ref gave a free kick so that's the end of it?' What total cobblers.
Personally if it were me I'd bring a private prosecution against Bernard for ABH and see him in court.
Thug.
The Saka incident is potentially just as bad.
The player, whoever it was should be made to face to consequences of his thuggery .
Far be it from me to tell Doug King what to do ( well OK then I will ) but I'd talk to the chairman /owner of both the Sheff W and Millwall and tell them we intend to make a big deal of both incidents unless they take appropriate action against the respective players and manager/ coach if they encouraged such behaviour .
If they would not then full steam ahead and see them in court .
This is supposed to be the beautiful game not Saturday night in Glasgow city centre.( Apologies to my Scottish friends)

Aarghh! The stereotyping discussion now goes off on a tangent...

 

[robbiekeane]

Many on here have called Welsh fans and players Sheep Shaggers if you look through posting history

I’ll play along and pretend you don’t know why it’s different and I’ll explain it to you

Obviously derogatory terms at any groups, including Welsh people as per your example, are offensive and unacceptable, but comparing that to the racial stereotyping of Asians isnt valid. The (obvious) key difference lies in the systemic nature and historical context of racism. Stereotypes against racialized communities contribute to much broader patterns of discrimination and prejudice, affecting those peoples lives pretty significantly

In short, it’s a shit comparison that ignores historic marginalisation, power dynamics, and general global context

but you know this of course

 

[JoeCCFCPUSB]

The fact that Millwall pressed with pretty much 9 men at about 100 mph and for around 30 minutes yet only managed to score 1 goal and lost just goes to show how garbage Millwall are.
If Sakamoto continues to get battered and the referees do f all and he doesn't get protection, the likes of Eccles, Bidwell, Bobby, Simms. Wright, Torp and Joel Lat all need to start flying in on players ankles,

we need to set an example now, that Millwall player should have had his ankle broken by one of our lads, a red is a red, but the point is you try and purposely hurt one of our players simply because he is good at football and is small is a disgrace. I would fully back anyone of our bigger players just completely annihilating any opponent that takes liberties.

The referees are a disgrace, it's happened too often this season and it's only a matter of time before Sakamoto gets seriously hurt. Bring on one of our reserves, Stretton, Kelly, or even 6ft2 prospect Dermi Lusala and just tell them, the player that's just injured Sakamoto go and make sure he can't play football for next 3 months.

 

[shmmeee]

Mate honestly what?

The issue is reducing an athlete to a stereotype based on his nationality…assuming any Japanese person knows martial arts is as absurd as assuming every British person is an expert in tea drinking.
On top of that as has already been pointed out saying kung fu which is Chinese is just limping all different Asian cultures into one homogenous group which is not only inaccurate but also offensive.

Why the fuck does this stuff even need to be explained? Truly wild that it’s being defended

Most Brit’s do drink tea.

 

[Astute]

I’ll play along and pretend you don’t know why it’s different and I’ll explain it to you

Obviously derogatory terms at any groups, including Welsh people as per your example, are offensive and unacceptable, but comparing that to the racial stereotyping of Asians isnt valid. The (obvious) key difference lies in the systemic nature and historical context of racism. Stereotypes against racialized communities contribute to much broader patterns of discrimination and prejudice, affecting those peoples lives pretty significantly

In short, it’s a shit comparison that ignores historic marginalisation, power dynamics, and general global context

but you know this of course

We need a bit of perspective here.

Racial profiling is wrong in every way? Where do you draw the line?

Japanese people are well into their martial arts. Are you not allowed to mention it? Japanese people are not very tall on average. Are we allowed to say Tats is small for a football player or ever mention his size?

To us the French are known as frogs. To them their insult is calling us roast beef. It's from hundreds of years ago because of what both sides ate. Is it racial profiling? Yes. Do I find it hurtful? No, although others might. We've had a laugh about it in my local bar a few times.

Racial abuse and racial profiling are on two totally different levels. One should not be tolerated in the slightest. The other should be down to context. Hurtful? Shouldn't be tolerated.

Americans love their mega sized food portions. A high percentage are obese and bigger. You see it mentioned frequently. Racial profiling?


It's a slippery slope that can water down the main aim. That is stopping racial abuse.

 

[DrPoolittle]

That is fucking awful. I saw Sakamoto go down, didn't realise the reason.
That twat needs the book thrown at him.

I didn’t see it either.

thats the problem. Officials just can’t see everything. Only retrospective action can sort out infringements like this.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Back on topic - how could the fella that broke Allens cheekbone/eye socket get away with it as the ref spotted it and gave a free kick yet Matt Godden gets a ban retrospectively for a dive (was it against Fulham) when the ref pulled him up on it?

Or is my grey matter getting the Godden incident incorrect?

The only way the decision could be changed is if the ref was asked to look and changed his mind
Which in my mind he should given the injury at least look again

 

[Otis]

I didn’t see it either.

thats the problem. Officials just can’t see everything. Only retrospective action can sort out infringements like this.

Exactly. I am not blaming the officials. If they didn't see it, they didn't see it.

This is where video evidence needs to come in and the video evidence is clearly there.

Use it. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a joke. This Millwall defender sees that he was captured on video, clearly elbowing someone in the face and nothing being done about it.

Must be laughing his socks off.

 

[robbiekeane]

We need a bit of perspective here.

Racial profiling is wrong in every way? Where do you draw the line?

Japanese people are well into their martial arts. Are you not allowed to mention it? Japanese people are not very tall on average. Are we allowed to say Tats is small for a football player or ever mention his size?

To us the French are known as frogs. To them their insult is calling us roast beef. It's from hundreds of years ago because of what both sides ate. Is it racial profiling? Yes. Do I find it hurtful? No, although others might. We've had a laugh about it in my local bar a few times.

Racial abuse and racial profiling are on two totally different levels. One should not be tolerated in the slightest. The other should be down to context. Hurtful? Shouldn't be tolerated.

Americans love their mega sized food portions. A high percentage are obese and bigger. You see it mentioned frequently. Racial profiling?


It's a slippery slope that can water down the main aim. That is stopping racial abuse.

I appreciate you trying to have a productive discussion. There’s a few things in your post that don’t hold though.

You’re right that profiling and stereotyping do happen in various contexts, but not all of these stereotypes carry the same weight or consequences. Your examples about American food sizes or insults between the british and french don’t really have any harmful implications because they don’t contribute to systemic oppression. None of those groups you mention have faced any historical marginalisation or oppression based on those stereotypes. A big point that people overlook often too is that they exist within contexts of power where those groups are not disadvantaged by those perceptions.

Here’s an example - I don’t give a shit if anybody imitates my charming British accent (love actually fans wya), which they do and will continue to do as I live in different places around the world. I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if someone who was british or American imitated a Chinese, Japanese, or Polish/Indian accent. Precisely because of the power dynamics at play and the historic marginalisation.

And look, while the above is very important, the biggest thing for me is the point I already made about assuming someone from Japan would know a martial art from China because, “Asia”, supports this whole concept that asia is a homogenous place.

Assuming someone from Japan knows Kung Fu is like assuming someone from Spain should be an expert in Russian Literature. The distance between Japan and China is roughly the same as the distance between Spain and Russia, and I mean after all, literature is part of the national curriculum in Spain isnt it?

I’ve made my point now so I’ll leave this alone. I know 80% of the people on here will think I’m a twat and making a big deal of things recently but I don’t care, it’s not enough to just “not be racist”, you have to be outwardly “anti racist” which to me means calling out any of this shit that can contribute to an environment where worse stuff happens

 

[DrPoolittle]

Exactly. I am not blaming the officials. If they didn't see it, they didn't see it.

This is where video evidence needs to come in and the video evidence is clearly there.

Use it. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a joke. This Millwall defender sees that he was captured on video, clearly elbowing someone in the face and nothing being done about it.

Must be laughing his socks off.

Precisely. And some fans revel in their team being brutal on the pitch.

oh no, I just stereotyped Millwall fans.

 

[Nick]

How do the fa decide when they will look into stuff from footage and when they won't?

 

[DrPoolittle]

I appreciate you trying to have a productive discussion. There’s a few things in your post that don’t hold though.

You’re right that profiling and stereotyping do happen in various contexts, but not all of these stereotypes carry the same weight or consequences. Your examples about American food sizes or insults between the british and french don’t really have any harmful implications because they don’t contribute to systemic oppression. None of those groups you mention have faced any historical marginalisation or oppression based on those stereotypes. A big point that people overlook often too is that they exist within contexts of power where those groups are not disadvantaged by those perceptions.

Here’s an example - I don’t give a shit if anybody imitates my charming British accent (love actually fans wya), which they do and will continue to do as I live in different places around the world. I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if someone who was british or American imitated a Chinese, Japanese, or Polish/Indian accent. Precisely because of the power dynamics at play and the historic marginalisation.

And look, while the above is very important, the biggest thing for me is the point I already made about assuming someone from Japan would know a martial art from China because, “Asia”, supports this whole concept that asia is a homogenous place.

Assuming someone from Japan knows Kung Fu is like assuming someone from Spain should be an expert in Russian Literature. The distance between Japan and China is roughly the same as the distance between Spain and Russia, and I mean after all, literature is part of the national curriculum in Spain isnt it?

I’ve made my point now so I’ll leave this alone. I know 80% of the people on here will think I’m a twat and making a big deal of things recently but I don’t care, it’s not enough to just “not be racist”, you have to be outwardly “anti racist” which to me means calling out any of this shit that can contribute to an environment where worse stuff happens

An intriguing perspective but I am going to challenge:

“None of those groups you mention have faced any historical marginalisation or oppression based on those stereotypes.”

That’s a very political and ethno-centric view, which I would suggest, is only viewing the world through a prism of white guilt. I would equally suggest that world history is full of Chinese and Japanese examples, where they held considerable power, often to the disadvantage of others; for example, Koreans have a very fixed view on Japan.

It’s like the white guilt thingy about slavery which, for political reasons, forgets that white people bought black African slaves from black AfrIcans. If you ever get the chance, visit Mombasa and talk to the Kenyans.

Starting to stray from the point, which is that stereotyping is how we see the world around us. I mock my Polish and German colleagues often. They mock the UK for thinking the NHS is worth having. We know our audience and stereotypes are a long way from racism. Racism only occurs when a set of beliefs becomes prejudicial in action.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I appreciate you trying to have a productive discussion. There’s a few things in your post that don’t hold though.

You’re right that profiling and stereotyping do happen in various contexts, but not all of these stereotypes carry the same weight or consequences. Your examples about American food sizes or insults between the british and french don’t really have any harmful implications because they don’t contribute to systemic oppression. None of those groups you mention have faced any historical marginalisation or oppression based on those stereotypes. A big point that people overlook often too is that they exist within contexts of power where those groups are not disadvantaged by those perceptions.

Here’s an example - I don’t give a shit if anybody imitates my charming British accent (love actually fans wya), which they do and will continue to do as I live in different places around the world. I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if someone who was british or American imitated a Chinese, Japanese, or Polish/Indian accent. Precisely because of the power dynamics at play and the historic marginalisation.

And look, while the above is very important, the biggest thing for me is the point I already made about assuming someone from Japan would know a martial art from China because, “Asia”, supports this whole concept that asia is a homogenous place.

Assuming someone from Japan knows Kung Fu is like assuming someone from Spain should be an expert in Russian Literature. The distance between Japan and China is roughly the same as the distance between Spain and Russia, and I mean after all, literature is part of the national curriculum in Spain isnt it?

I’ve made my point now so I’ll leave this alone. I know 80% of the people on here will think I’m a twat and making a big deal of things recently but I don’t care, it’s not enough to just “not be racist”, you have to be outwardly “anti racist” which to me means calling out any of this shit that can contribute to an environment where worse stuff happens

I’d hope percentages are the other way around

 

[David O'Day]

How do the fa decide when they will look into stuff from footage and when they won't?

The rule is meant to be if the ref saw and it and added to his match report then it is done and dusted unless he made a "mistake" and by mistake they mean he got the original decision wrong and not the punishment. Which means Godden could be looked at again as the penalty was deemed to be a mistake but Allen couldn't as even though he bottle any punishment he still gave the free kick correctly.

 

[Astute]

I appreciate you trying to have a productive discussion. There’s a few things in your post that don’t hold though.

You’re right that profiling and stereotyping do happen in various contexts, but not all of these stereotypes carry the same weight or consequences. Your examples about American food sizes or insults between the british and french don’t really have any harmful implications because they don’t contribute to systemic oppression. None of those groups you mention have faced any historical marginalisation or oppression based on those stereotypes. A big point that people overlook often too is that they exist within contexts of power where those groups are not disadvantaged by those perceptions.

Here’s an example - I don’t give a shit if anybody imitates my charming British accent (love actually fans wya), which they do and will continue to do as I live in different places around the world. I would however feel extremely uncomfortable if someone who was british or American imitated a Chinese, Japanese, or Polish/Indian accent. Precisely because of the power dynamics at play and the historic marginalisation.

And look, while the above is very important, the biggest thing for me is the point I already made about assuming someone from Japan would know a martial art from China because, “Asia”, supports this whole concept that asia is a homogenous place.

Assuming someone from Japan knows Kung Fu is like assuming someone from Spain should be an expert in Russian Literature. The distance between Japan and China is roughly the same as the distance between Spain and Russia, and I mean after all, literature is part of the national curriculum in Spain isnt it?

I’ve made my point now so I’ll leave this alone. I know 80% of the people on here will think I’m a twat and making a big deal of things recently but I don’t care, it’s not enough to just “not be racist”, you have to be outwardly “anti racist” which to me means calling out any of this shit that can contribute to an environment where worse stuff happens

As I said there's racial profiling and there's racial abuse. Racial profiling happens on here all the time. That's not a problem when done in the correct terms.....

If you mention a player is black that is a racial profile. If you throw in an insult at the same time that's racial abuse.

And this is the point I was trying to make.

 

[Hobo]

It does make you wonder, Kitching sent off, Allen, player not sent off, Sakamoto, player not sent off, is there a hidden agenda.

That is how conspiracy theories start. The reality is refs can't see everything. Fans are often totally biased in how they view things. The view the ref has of any incident on the pitch is totally different to any fans view. We have all seen two TV camera angles that can make incidents look very different.

Millwall fans thought the ref was a complete homer.

The conspiracy is against refs, they can't win. The media don't help and VAR has made their situation worse not better. VAR refs are interfering too much which is against the original protocols of 'clear and obvious'. Some rules they have to enforce are open to individual interpretation which is an open door for criticism. The media devote a lot of post match time to the scrutiny of refs and the conclusion I draw from it is even the 'experts' agree to disagree.

The current rules for revisiting incidents seems to be random and inconsistent. But if a refs decision is overturned the public opinion will be the ref was originally wrong. Which obviously would not be a correct assumption in all cases.

 

[David O'Day]

That is how conspiracy theories start. The reality is refs can't see everything. Fans are often totally biased in how they view things. The view the ref has of any incident on the pitch is totally different to any fans view. We have all seen two TV camera angles that can make incidents look very different.

Millwall fans thought the ref was a complete homer.

The conspiracy is against refs, they can't win. The media don't help and VAR has made their situation worse not better. VAR refs are interfering too much which is against the original protocols of 'clear and obvious'. Some rules they have to enforce are open to individual interpretation which is an open door for criticism. The media devote a lot of post match time to the scrutiny of refs and the conclusion I draw from it is even the 'experts' agree to disagree.

The current rules for revisiting incidents seems to be random and inconsistent. But if a refs decision is overturned the public opinion will be the ref was originally wrong. Which obviously would not be a correct assumption in all cases.

The ref may have missed it but the lino is looking at it

 

[Hobo]

The ref may have missed it but the lino is looking at it

You can't say what the lino has seen or hasn't,
because you can't see the angle of his eyes. You are making a big assumption on what he has seen? You are going down the road of looking to blame an official.

Perhaps football managers are to blame for not taking their own disciplinary action against their own players that commit serious foul play?

The player did go over and apologize to Tats in the next break in play and shook his hand. Coventry City to my knowledge have made no comment on the incident so far? Perhaps Tats doesn't want to pursue the matter? Perhaps the club have lost confidence in the ruling body? Who knows?

But the authorities have the ultimate responsibility for governance of the game, which involves protecting players and officials. Fans knee jerking about officials decisions all the time and looking to blame them; with accusations of what they would have seen, only complicates matters.

Officials miss things and make genuine mistakes, just like ever player does every game.

 

[David O'Day]

You can't say what the lino has seen or hasn't,
because you can't see the angle of his eyes. You are making a big assumption on what he has seen? You are going down the road of looking to blame an official.

Perhaps football managers are to blame for not taking their own disciplinary action against their own players that commit serious foul play?

The player did go over and apologize to Tats in the next break in play and shook his hand. Coventry City to my knowledge have made no comment on the incident so far? Perhaps Tats doesn't want to pursue the matter? Perhaps the club have lost confidence in the ruling body? Who knows?

But the authorities have the ultimate responsibility for governance of the game, which involves protecting players and officials. Fans knee jerking about officials decisions all the time and looking to blame them; with accusations of what they would have seen, only complicates matters.

I watched it live and unless the lino was wearing blinkers he will have seen it.

I'll blame an official when an official has been shit if it's all the same to you.

 

[Tommo1993]

The EFL, BBC, Sky Sports, FA do not have a hidden agenda for CCFC. When will grown men get over this paranoia?

 

[Nick]

The EFL, BBC, Sky Sports, FA do not have a hidden agenda for CCFC. When will grown men get over this paranoia?

Not sure it's specific against CCFC but there's certainly no consistency.

How many players have received a retrospective ban for diving?

 

[Hobo]

I watched it live and unless the lino was wearing blinkers he will have seen it.

I'll blame an official when an official has been shit if it's all the same to you.

I watched it live, it happened practically right in front me. I missed it, so did lots of other fans sat around me The woman who sits next to me called it straight away.

You are entitled to your opinion based on what you saw But you have no right to say what an official would of seen, just because you saw it. The ball had gone and the elbow was late, so there is two good reasons why the ref and the lino may have missed it like many fans did.

 

[David O'Day]

I watched it live, it happened practically right in front me. I missed it, so did lots of other fans sat around me The woman who sits next to me called it straight away.

You are entitled to your opinion based on what you saw But you have no right to say what an official would of seen, just because you saw it. The ball had gone and the elbow was late, so there is two good reasons why the ref and the lino may have missed it like many fans did.

Ok fella if you can't tell the difference between what a fan may see and what an official who is employed to spot these things may see then we'll leave this here.

 

[Bidda]

Exactly. I am not blaming the officials. If they didn't see it, they didn't see it.

This is where video evidence needs to come in and the video evidence is clearly there.

Use it. Otherwise the whole thing becomes a joke. This Millwall defender sees that he was captured on video, clearly elbowing someone in the face and nothing being done about it.

Must be laughing his socks off.

So, if the club appears to be unwilling to address the issue, is there anything we can do to raise it? Local press? MP? …?

 

[Hobo]

Not sure it's specific against CCFC but there's certainly no consistency.

How many players have received a retrospective ban for diving?

Wasn't it a dive that resulted in a penalty being awarded and a goal scored? I know a dive is a dive, but the resulting consequences have to be taken into consideration.

All players and teams dive all over the pitch. They see it as gaining an advantage rather than cheating. The same way as creeping up the line with a throw in, to gain yards. The same as putting the ball down for a free kick. Then another player comes to take free kick re spotting the ball a yard further forward. Players accept it as just part of the game, trying to gain an advantage. It annoys fans but normally only when the opposition do it.

Fans complain about lots of things but they are as inconsistent as any referee.