Israel - Palestinian Conflict (20 Viewers)

[duffer]

No she did not. I have utterly embarrassed you which was not my intent, i just was seeking to educate you as to how lawyers operate.

Direct quote from her website Suella Braverman MP :

"I worked at the Bar for 10years (sic), specialising in Planning Law and Judicial Review."

Is the problem that you can't read, or that you're too lazy to bother?

I'm not trying to embarrass you either. I don't think you're capable of that level of self-reflection - if you were you wouldn't post such unmitigated rubbish.

 

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[duffer]

Being left wing is being authoritarian. There ain’t no invisible hand of economic justice.

Probably not for this thread, but I think it's entirely possible to be left wing and broadly libertarian. Controlling the worst excesses of capitalism is more about regulation of business and redistributive policies than removing individual rights, surely.

The Political Compass website has a bit on this, from memory.

 

[shmmeee]

Probably not for this thread, but I think it's entirely possible to be left wing and broadly libertarian. Controlling the worst excesses of capitalism is more about regulation of business and redistributive policies than removing individual rights, surely.

The Political Compass website has a bit on this, from memory.

Business rights are individual rights on a base level. Being left wing is generally a belief that people need coercing by the state into universally beneficial actions, I agree with that generally. Greed is a powerful tool, but needs curbing. That goes beyond big business. The traditional left wing position on immigration is one of state control of borders to protect domestic worker wages. Sugar tax, smoking regulation, state education, all removing individual rights for the collective good.

We get around it by framing it as a freedom argument cos that’s popular, I can’t be free if you’re given untrammelled freedom sort of thing. But fundamentally the question is do we want to fix things with the law? If so you’re left wing by definition.

 

[PVA]

'The Nazis were socialists' is one of the thickest takes ever posted on here.

I'd love to see this article by the 'balanced' Andrew Neil.

 

[duffer]

Business rights are individual rights on a base level. Being left wing is generally a belief that people need coercing by the state into universally beneficial actions, I agree with that generally. Greed is a powerful tool, but needs curbing. That goes beyond big business. The traditional left wing position on immigration is one of state control of borders to protect domestic worker wages. Sugar tax, smoking regulation, state education, all removing individual rights for the collective good.

We get around it by framing it as a freedom argument cos that’s popular, I can’t be free if you’re given untrammelled freedom sort of thing. But fundamentally the question is do we want to fix things with the law? If so you’re left wing by definition.

Well argued, but I think where we differ is in the definition of authoritarian.

I think the typical definition of authoritarian goes way beyond sugar tax, for example and into the realms of suppressing democracy and individual rights. Taxing sugar, or cigarettes, or booze, isn't the same as saying you can't have them, and it's not just left wing governments that take those steps.

As an aside, I'm not sure that's necessarily a 'traditional' left wing view on immigration either - in my day we were accused of being internationalists, from memory.

Regardless, I accept we differ on this and don't want to divert the thread too much... (too late!).

 

[shmmeee]

Well argued, but I think where we differ is in the definition of authoritarian.

I think the typical definition of authoritarian goes way beyond sugar tax, for example and into the realms of suppressing democracy and individual rights. Taxing sugar, or cigarettes, or booze, isn't the same as saying you can't have them, and it's not just left wing governments that take those steps.

As an aside, I'm not sure that's necessarily a 'traditional' left wing view on immigration either - in my day we were accused of being internationalists, from memory.

Regardless, I accept we differ on this and don't want to divert the thread too much... (too late!).

It’s very much the corbynite position on immigration.

I think you’re right, it’s become a word for the more extreme fringes but on a binary scale the majority of left wing positions are of a more authoritarian than libertarian persuasion. Even if it’s only slightly beyond center.

I think we talk too much about social issues that really are outside the remit of parliamentary politics and yeah on these most progressive positions are liberal. But left wing for me is an economic descriptor, and in economics trends towards government intervention over liberalism by definition.

 

[Grendel]

'The Nazis were socialists' is one of the thickest takes ever posted on here.

I'd love to see this article by the 'balanced' Andrew Neil.

Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?

It was totalitarian

 

[PVA]

Was the Chinese communist party under Chairman Mao socialist?

Oh of course Mr Contrarian thinks the Nazis were Socialists. Obviously.

 

[Grendel]

Oh of course Mr Contrarian thinks the Nazis were Socialists. Obviously.

i don’t think I’ve past judgement but I’d be fascinated to know how you would define socialism

 

[Grendel]

It was totalitarian

As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist

 

[PVA]

i don’t think I’ve past judgement but I’d be fascinated to know how you would define socialism

Hope this helps

 

[skybluetony176]

As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist

Mussolini and Hitler for that matter were both famously pro capitalism as they believed it to be the driving force of industry and technology. Mussolini wasn’t the least bit interested in class war and the only person who considered him a socialist was himself. Like the Nazis it was window dressing and a faux claim to be socialist because they wanted to appeal to the working classes while trying to gain power.

 

[Grendel]

Hope this helps

Not really as I asked in your view what defines socialism. There is only really one fundamental difference between the two

The funny thing is socialism is ideologically opposed to federal conglomerate states such as the EU

So sorry you made a comment and cannot back it up.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As are every anti capitalist societies - Mussolini was considered by many historians to be a socialist

He was a literal fascist which anyone would consider to be far right.

 

[Grendel]

He was a literal fascist which anyone would consider to be far right.

There is little difference to actual socialism which is far left. Socialism has principally only one real difference.

 

[PVA]

So sorry you made a comment and cannot back it up.

That Nazis weren't socialists?

I mean that doesn't really take much backing up.

 

[Grendel]

That Nazis weren't socialists?

I mean that doesn't really take much backing up.

No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?

Where the state controls the means of production

 

[PVA]

No I am asking you what is the principle definition of socialism - not a wiki link but what is it?

So I haven't made a statement that I can't back up. Glad we agree.

The Nazis were not socialists and neither was Mussolini (when in power). That's really all there is to it.

Every sane person in history agrees. Obviously you disagree.

I'm not carrying on an argument where someone disagrees that the Nazis weren't socialists, it's absurd, so I'll leave you to it.

 

[Grendel]

Where the state controls the means of production

Exactly - which is a denouncement of capitalism and therefore essentially is authoritarian

The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control, anti

Both are anti capitalist and anti democracy as democracy would mean potential change

 

[messiahrobins]

Direct quote from her website Suella Braverman MP :

"I worked at the Bar for 10years (sic), specialising in Planning Law and Judicial Review."

Is the problem that you can't read, or that you're too lazy to bother?

I'm not trying to embarrass you either. I don't think you're capable of that level of self-reflection - if you were you wouldn't post such unmitigated rubbish.

Judicial Law isn't an area of law lol, it is part of Public Law which she specialises in. It is like saying a contract lawyer specialises in Consideration lol. Meaningless.

 

[messiahrobins]

Apart from you actually said “you either support Israel or Nazis.” Obviously he doesn’t support Hamas but he doesn’t support Israel; so what is he?

Woke. It is a binary choice, there is no fence sitting. Pick a side.

 

[Grendel]

So I haven't made a statement that I can't back up. Glad we agree.

The Nazis were not socialists and neither was Mussolini (when in power). That's really all there is to it.

Every sane person in history agrees. Obviously you disagree.

I'm not carrying on an argument where someone disagrees that the Nazis weren't socialists, it's absurd, so I'll leave you to it.

Well you cannot answer as you do not comprehend the ideology of socialism. Do you consider Chairman Mao a socialist?

 

[messiahrobins]

I think messiahrobins may be Marjorie Taylor Greene in the real world.

I love her. I genuinely asked her for a date on X. Yet to have a reply. She hot as well, added bonus.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Exactly - which is a denouncement of capitalism and therefore essentially is authoritarian

The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control, anti

Both are anti capitalist and anti democracy as democracy would mean potential change

I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.

 

[PVA]

The only real difference between actual socialism and fascism is that the fascist ideology does not control the means but does control the private ownership of capital through state control

We're not talking about the difference between socialism and fascism, it's the difference between socialism and the Nazis.

And clearly there is more than just that one difference between the two ffs.


Utterly absurd.

 

[Grendel]

We're not talking about the difference between socialism and fascism, it's the difference between socialism and the Nazis.

And clearly there is more than just that one difference between the two ffs.


Utterly absurd.

So how did the Mao and the Stalin administrations differ from the Nazi administration?

Was Oswald Moseley a Nazi?

 

[Grendel]

I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.

Would you say Michael Foot was in reality a Socialist in principal but operating in a capitalist society?

 

[Grendel]

I agree it’s anti capitalist, I disagree that there is only one difference between it and socialism.

Both operate on a nationalist doctrine, are isolationist and anti immigration

 

[PVA]

"The Nazis were not socialist"

"but but Stalin, Mao, Mussolini. And Michael Foot. I am clever."

 

[fernandopartridge]

Judicial Law isn't an area of law lol, it is part of Public Law which she specialises in. It is like saying a contract lawyer specialises in Consideration lol. Meaningless.

Judicial law doesn't even make sense, what are you on about?

Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk

 

[Grendel]

"The Nazis were not socialist"

"but but Stalin, Mao, Mussolini. Michael Foot. I am clever."

I have asked what is the difference and why you believe you are more knowledgeable than Andrew Neil

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Would you say Michael Foot was in reality a Socialist in principal but operating in a capitalist society?

Honest enough to say I don’t know enough about him.

 

[Grendel]

Honest enough to say I don’t know enough about him.

I think he was

Michael Foot: Ninety six years in the life of a passionate English radical

An incorrigible rebel, the former Labour leader failed politically but always followed his mighty heart

www.theguardian.com