The no loans strategy (1 Viewer)

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fernandopartridge

fernandopartridge

Well-Known Member
What have we got out of it?

King said before the United game that he'd swap places with Ipswich. Well yeah, they've supplemented their squad with high quality loan players as pretty much anybody outside of the parachute payment recipients needs to.

Given our form and position in January it feels like an opportunity lost.
 
T

The watchmaker

Well-Known Member
PVA said:
Is it a strategy or could we just not get the loans we wanted?
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I was going to ask a similar question. Loans are expensive and lead to unsettled sides so if you are trying to build and have the money buying is a pretty wise move. We did loan two players - although admittedly one didn't work out and was sent back.

I also wonder whether Doug was a bit caught out by (and I don't mean to be critical) Peterborough's owner not being as business like as he may be used to. Robins seemed pretty confident EMC was coming in but to read MacAntony's account he was on a plane at a critical time and then by his own admission, a little tipsy and made a decision that those around him thought was mad. Maybe EMC coming in doesn't get us promoted but fine margins might have seen us into the playoffs.
 
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stupot07

stupot07

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in
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There's a difference between being reliant on loans, which with McNally, Panzo, Doyle, BNC, Wilson-Esbrand (5 of 8 defenders in the squad), to supplementing a squad, with 2-3 options additional oppositions, quality and depth.
 
T

The watchmaker

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in
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Is there an argument that this year was a major rebuild and therefore going big on loans makes more sense next season when we really want to make a big push and have a better idea of the limitations of the players we own?
 
Saddlebrains

Saddlebrains

Well-Known Member
The watchmaker said:
Is there an argument that this year was a major rebuild and therefore going big on loans makes more sense next season when we really want to make a big push and have a better idea of the limitations of the players we own?
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Perhaps, id say thats a valid point

Id be very surprised if we didnt see a couple of loans of real quality in the summer
 
T

The watchmaker

Well-Known Member
stupot07 said:
The problem is we came out of January one squad player lighter, with a squad that was never big enough.

Out
Fadz
Ayari

In
Torp
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Yeah, the club were clearly aware of that and trying to bring in cover for Sakamoto/Wright. If you read the MacAntony articles Doug pushed really hard to get EMC in and at one stage walked away to pursue other options when it became clear that we wouldn't get him til the summer. Presumably those other options didn't work out either. You live and learn.
 
D

Deleted member 9744

Guest
Been saying it since January. A big mistake and I think it is almost impossible to get out if this league without the extra quality loans bring. Just hope Robins doesn't leave because of this and that we learn from it.
 
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
It's been made crystal clear by Robins to Doug that to get out of this league you need 2 or 3 loans of real quality

Lets hope Dougs heeds that advice
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That is tricky though as the top loans are usually highly rated PL players who are young and on for our standard big wages, even if we only paying a percentage, is quite a chunk of our budget.
That said i think things changed for Doug at Wembley so ive a feeling he might be now more inclined to push the boat out if Robins requests it. However you know way more than me.
 
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
Deleted member 9744 said:
Been saying it since January. A big mistake and I think it is almost impossible to get out if this league without the extra quality loans bring. Just hope Robins doesn't leave because of this and that we learn from it.
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Not sure on this. Hull gambled hugely on getting into the play offs. I am glad we didnt end up like Hull, as they will now have issues this summer.
 
M

messiahrobins

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in
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Cant blame Doug on this. This was a transitional season and he must have been reluctant to take risks in January, and looking at Hull he probably made the right call. I think he sees the summer as the time to recruit.
 
T

The watchmaker

Well-Known Member
clint van damme said:
Not true, depending on where you get them from.

Robins has been let down in every January for the last 3 seasons
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Well... okay... I suppose it depends on your definition of expensive but I will grant you that actually. Short term, it can be a much cheaper way of bringing in quality you can't afford to buy.

I suppose if you look at hull - if they don't make playoffs they are in the same place as us but all their loans are just dead money... if they somehow sneak the playoffs and go up then they are fantastic value.

I can't argue with your point on Robins either. Probably wouldn't have taken much in January to see us over the line and the failure to properly replace Hamer in the summer window was equally damaging.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
The watchmaker said:
Well... okay... I suppose it depends on your definition of expensive but I will grant you that actually. Short term, it can be a much cheaper way of bringing in quality you can't afford to buy.

I suppose if you look at hull - if they don't make playoffs they are in the same place as us but all their loans are just dead money... if they somehow sneak the playoffs and go up then they are fantastic value.

I can't argue with your point on Robins either. Probably wouldn't have taken much in January to see us over the line and the failure to properly replace Hamer in the summer window was equally damaging.
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Well some clubs pick up the bill as long as the loanees plays apparently.
I think there's a happy medium between maxing out on loans and bolstering your squad with a couple of decent additions
 
Mucca Mad Boys

Mucca Mad Boys

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in
Click to expand...

To things back in perspective, the objective Robins was set by King was to compete for a playoff place.

In the end, would spending a lot of budget on loanees made the difference this season? I don’t think so and if it was the difference between securing EMC permanently, we’ve took the right decision in the longer term.

In a 5 year plan, this was a season where we build our foundations.
 
mmttww

mmttww

Well-Known Member
Saddlebrains said:
Correct. Admirable. And sensible really. But you do not get out of that league without that little but of magic from higher level players you can loan in
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Did Brentford ever bother with loans?

Feels like that's what we're aiming for.
 
D

Deity

Well-Known Member
Ok can we expose some myths on loans ….

1) The most sought after players are not cheap. Clubs insist on a loan fee and the club pick up all / majority of the players wages. This means that loan signings are often the highest paid players at the club they join. It is not unusual for the loan fee to be a 7 figure sum.

2) The player and the loaning club have clear expectations on both how many matches they will play and in what position. This can create issues within the squad as other team members feel it’s not a level playing field for first team selection

3) attitude is everything …. Some loan players embrace their new club, the chance they have for first team football …others act billy big time and think the club, its facilities, etc are below them. This can also cause squad issues.

4) The data is mixed. It’s a bit lazy to say that you have to have loans to go up because almost every club in the championship has loan players. Therefore yes loan players appear in promoted teams but they are also in relegated teams.

If we take Leicester as a case in point. 4 loans this season. Only 1 of which has been a real success. 2 flopped and have barely played and 1 has been injured most of the season.

They have spent over £3m in loan fees.

One loan was recalled by Chelsea in January because he wasn’t playing enough ( he was getting mins off the bench ) ….
 
D

Deity

Well-Known Member
I personally don’t mind the odd loan but would only ever want 2 max. Unless the loan includes an option to buy then you really are not building anything.

I would sooner inject dead money into 2 or 3 older bosmans that give the team more experience, match day know how, and help the younger players have the right standards.

I think Milner and Lallana at Brighton are the perfect example of this approach …. Clearly we couldn’t afford that quality but the approach could be similar.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Deity said:
Ok can we expose some myths on loans ….

1) The most sought after players are not cheap. Clubs insist on a loan fee and the club pick up all / majority of the players wages. This means that loan signings are often the highest paid players at the club they join. It is not unusual for the loan fee to be a 7 figure sum.

2) The player and the loaning club have clear expectations on both how many matches they will play and in what position. This can create issues within the squad as other team members feel it’s not a level playing field for first team selection

3) attitude is everything …. Some loan players embrace their new club, the chance they have for first team football …others act billy big time and think the club, its facilities, etc are below them. This can also cause squad issues.

4) The data is mixed. It’s a bit lazy to say that you have to have loans to go up because almost every club in the championship has loan players. Therefore yes loan players appear in promoted teams but they are also in relegated teams.

If we take Leicester as a case in point. 4 loans this season. Only 1 of which has been a real success. 2 flopped and have barely played and 1 has been injured most of the season.

They have spent over £3m in loan fees.

One loan was recalled by Chelsea in January because he wasn’t playing enough ( he was getting mins off the bench ) ….
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Point 1 isn't correct
 
covcity4life

covcity4life

Well-Known Member
At start of season fans were so happy we had no loans and now in hindsight kicking off lol

In the summer I was more permanent signings to keep the squad moving in right direction

If a great loan opportunity comes up then yes take it to be the cherry on top
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
Deity said:
Ipsw are paying 75% of Kieffer Moore’s prem league contract …. He’s there highest paid player.
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But not all loans work like that.
Some are free but the player has to play, or play a certain amount, as you've stated in point 2.
 
clint van damme

clint van damme

Well-Known Member
covcity4life said:
At start of season fans were so happy we had no loans and now in hindsight kicking off lol

In the summer I was more permanent signings to keep the squad moving in right direction

If a great loan opportunity comes up then yes take it to be the cherry on top
Click to expand...

Like I said, there's a happy medium, a couple of loans to bolster the squad is no bad thing.
 
Flying Fokker

Flying Fokker

Well-Known Member
The watchmaker said:
I was going to ask a similar question. Loans are expensive and lead to unsettled sides so if you are trying to build and have the money buying is a pretty wise move. We did loan two players - although admittedly one didn't work out and was sent back.

I also wonder whether Doug was a bit caught out by (and I don't mean to be critical) Peterborough's owner not being as business like as he may be used to. Robins seemed pretty confident EMC was coming in but to read MacAntony's account he was on a plane at a critical time and then by his own admission, a little tipsy and made a decision that those around him thought was mad. Maybe EMC coming in doesn't get us promoted but fine margins might have seen us into the playoffs.
Click to expand...
Would Peterborough let go if they are in The Championship? Yes, maybe it was good business despite the loan back to Peterborough.
 
D

Deity

Well-Known Member
Our recent track record on loans is mixed at best

Ayari … no
Binks …. Mixed

previous season

JWE …no
Norton Cuffy …. Mixed
McNally … Yes
Doyle … Yes
The young palace right back …. No
 
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