FA allows sex discrimination (24 Viewers)

[San Francisco]

If you think for a moment I'm suggesting that anyone's safety shouldn't be a consideration, then you're dead wrong. But it's nowhere near as black and white as is being suggested, imho.

And I discussed exactly this thread with my wife yesterday, to get her opinion on it. It's fair to say it differs from Oakey's. Women are not an homogenous block on this issue.

Fair enough mate, I'm interested in the views of women who play football. Can't imagine many would be comfortable sharing changing rooms with someone who is, with all due respect, a biological male.

And who is actually belittling anyone here - have I missed something?

I found napolimp's treatment of oakey appalling if I'm being honest.

 

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[napolimp]

Fair enough mate, I'm interested in the views of women who play football. Can't imagine many would be comfortable sharing changing rooms with someone who is, with all due respect, a biological male.



I found napolimp's treatment of oakey appalling if I'm being honest.

What the fuck are you talking about? There was absolutely no belittling whatsoever, maybe learn to read? I made my point about comments on here which I believe verge on discrimination, what is so hard to understand about that. Do you struggle with a low IQ or something?

 

[Liquid Gold]

One major issue with trans women participating in women's sport is that they generally are much more physically capable and naturally have a chemical advantage due to higher testosterone counts.

A way of alleviating this advantage is to allow for gender affirming care earlier in life which can offset a lot of those physical advantages but the move currently is to delay that care until as late in life as possible.

I can't help but feel bad for a trans person that was refused care because they weren't mature enough to make a decision only to then be refused to participate in a kick about because they were forced to have their body develop in a certain way.

 

[rob9872]

That 'move against' also protects those who would be forced into irreversible treatment by parents who push their own agendas or in some cases (Hollywood) see having trans kids as a fashion accessory.

 

[San Francisco]

What the fuck are you talking about? There was absolutely no belittling whatsoever, maybe learn to read?

What's with the aggression? My reading comprehension is fine, your comments were borderline argumentative towards someone who has lived experiences. Show a bit of compassion for once.

I made my point about comments on here which I believe verge on discrimination, what is so hard to understand about that.

Thank you for your service to the trans community. Your certificate will arrive via Royal Mail within 2-3 working days.

Do you struggle with a low IQ or something?

Ironic.

 

[TomRad85]

That 'move against' also protects those who would be forced into irreversible treatment by parents who push their own agendas or in some cases (Hollywood) see having trans kids as a fashion accessory.

Absolutely. I think this will be looked back on as a 'what the fuck was going on?' moment. At least I hope so.

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[duffer]

Fair enough mate, I'm interested in the views of women who play football. Can't imagine many would be comfortable sharing changing rooms with someone who is, with all due respect, a biological male.

The thing about changing facilities is a fair point and that would have to be carefully considered.

It's not insurmountable though, is it? Clearly some teams already have trans women who have transitioned, how has it worked there? I think women, like men, clearly have differing views on all this.

I guess where I'm coming from is that if we accept that men have the right to transition and be regarded as women, (and certainly in law and for many people I think that's accepted now), and we accept that in the huge majority of cases, it's not done for sinister reasons (including winning medals!), then we've got to find a compromise where both their rights and women's rights in general are respected.

I get the feeling, perhaps unfairly, that people tend to use unique cases to justify a blanket approach, and that doesn't feel quite right to me.

 

[wingy]

Absolutely. I think this will be looked back on as a 'what the fuck was going on?' moment. At least I hope so.

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Not so sure when we see hybrid humans introduced into the conversation, some people seem excited by the prospect?

 

[napolimp]

What's with the aggression? My reading comprehension is fine, your comments were borderline argumentative towards someone who has lived experiences. Show a bit of compassion for once.



Thank you for your service to the trans community. Your certificate will arrive via Royal Mail within 2-3 working days.



Ironic.

So which is it? Do I show compassion towards the trans community worthy of a certificate, or do I need to "show a bit of compassion for once"? The use of the words "for once" is strange, considering we don't know each other. Do you think these are real relationships you have online, with people who know you and vice versa? Because that's really sad.

I'm on here making a counter point to statements made about trans people (non sports related). At least I didn't come on here to seek the approval of some random woman on an online football chat forum, like you just have. Maybe go out and meet women in the real world, if you seek validation so badly.

 

[rob9872]

For someone challenging those you feel marginalised, you don't half come across as a bit cunty

 

[napolimp]

For someone challenging those you feel marginalised, you don't half come across as a bit cunty

I don't mind coming across as a bit cunty, in fact I have no desire to be liked on here whatsoever - fortunately.

 

[Liquid Gold]

The changing room is a difficult point because you can’t just identify who is a man and who is a woman.

If a trans man is considered a woman as that is what they were born and then forced into women’s changing rooms they would be the obvious candidate for “they shouldn’t be in here” cos they’d have a beard and pecs.

Do they then have to get their genitals out to prove who they are?

I think long term we’ll move to changing rooms with individual cubicles that have all their own facilities behind a locked door.

 

[wingy]

I don't mind coming across as a bit cunty, in fact I have no desire to be liked on here whatsoever - fortunately.

Just like the subject matter then?🫣

 

[Grendel]

I'm on here making a counter point to statements made about trans people (non sports related). At least I didn't come on here to seek the approval of some random woman on an online football chat forum, like you just have. Maybe go out and meet women in the real world, if you seek validation so badly.

Some random woman. Well that mask has completely slipped.

 

[TomRad85]

The changing room is a difficult point because you can’t just identify who is a man and who is a woman.

If a trans man is considered a woman as that is what they were born and then forced into women’s changing rooms they would be the obvious candidate for “they shouldn’t be in here” cos they’d have a beard and pecs.

Do they then have to get their genitals out to prove who they are?

I think long term we’ll move to changing rooms with individual cubicles that have all their own facilities behind a locked door.

I much prefer this anyway tbf, same with toilets. Shitting at my old workplace was a dream, could sit in there happily for half an hour, new workplace not so much... one of those open ones with a gap under the cubicle door. Never makes for a relaxing shit.

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[duffer]

There's some interesting stuff here on this, fwiw. The point about fully transitioned women actually being at a physical disadvantage, is interesting, imho.

And I'll leave it at that. If I've offended you @oakey , my genuine apologies. We differ, clearly, but that's no reason for me to insult you, or indeed anyone else (except @rob9872 obviously, but then that goes without saying!).

Sport is in transition whether you like it or not

Sport is in a bind — professing inclusivity, often practicing the opposite. The challenge is to replace the outdated model of deciding "who can play" with one that enables "sport for all", writes Tracey Holmes.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Grendel]

Grendel championing women's rights?

Yes Charles. Why on earth wouldn't I? I live in all female household.

I also - for the record - was one of the few who stood up for Nikki Sinclaire the MEP who had fully transitioned.

The reality I am afraid is those men who identify as women - believe me - are men. They are not women.

 

[Liquid Gold]

I much prefer this anyway tbf, same with toilets. Shitting at my old workplace was a dream, could sit in there happily for half an hour, new workplace not so much... one of those open ones with a gap under the cubicle door. Never makes for a relaxing shit.

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I did type that message from the comfort of a fully enclosed all gender toilet

 

[wingy]

How is this worldview getting on in say, Europe? With their known attitudes?

 

[oakey]

There's some interesting stuff here on this, fwiw. The point about fully transitioned women actually being at a physical disadvantage, is interesting, imho.

And I'll leave it at that. If I've offended you @oakey , my genuine apologies. We differ, clearly, but that's no reason for me to insult you, or indeed anyone else (except @rob9872 obviously, but then that goes without saying!).

Sport is in transition whether you like it or not

Sport is in a bind — professing inclusivity, often practicing the opposite. The challenge is to replace the outdated model of deciding "who can play" with one that enables "sport for all", writes Tracey Holmes.

www.abc.net.au

The article seems to argue that a modified biological male, who now identifies as a woman, is so nearly the same as a biological female that it matters not, let 'em play.
It cherry picks medical data about individuals and then generalises to conclude these differences are teeny weeny. It throws in the appeal for sympathy for these distressed individuals who only want to play.
It's so one sided as to be student politics level.
An article could be written from a disgruntled female athlete's perspective and draw completely contrary conclusions.

 

[San Francisco]

The thing about changing facilities is a fair point and that would have to be carefully considered.

It's not insurmountable though, is it? Clearly some teams already have trans women who have transitioned, how has it worked there? I think women, like men, clearly have differing views on all this.

I guess where I'm coming from is that if we accept that men have the right to transition and be regarded as women, (and certainly in law and for many people I think that's accepted now), and we accept that in the huge majority of cases, it's not done for sinister reasons (including winning medals!), then we've got to find a compromise where both their rights and women's rights in general are respected.

I get the feeling, perhaps unfairly, that people tend to use unique cases to justify a blanket approach, and that doesn't feel quite right to me.

Certainly a tough balancing act. There are going to be women who are for and against it. Perhaps let the women who play football ultimately decide on some kind of vote?
I find the comment about men transitioning just to compete in women's sport ludicrous though.

 

[San Francisco]

So which is it? Do I show compassion towards the trans community worthy of a certificate, or do I need to "show a bit of compassion for once"? The use of the words "for once" is strange, considering we don't know each other. Do you think these are real relationships you have online, with people who know you and vice versa? Because that's really sad.

I'm on here making a counter point to statements made about trans people (non sports related). At least I didn't come on here to seek the approval of some random woman on an online football chat forum, like you just have.

What is this comment? You're accusing me of seeking approval of a "random woman" who happens to also be a fellow city fan and a human being and not "some plank" on a forum as you stated earlier while championing the rights of trans women who don't even know you exist.

Maybe go out and meet women in the real world, if you seek validation so badly.

Haha, I've been happily married for the last 8 years you muppet. How are your relationships with your female family members? I'd wager they're quite poor based on your attitude on here.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

So which is it? Do I show compassion towards the trans community worthy of a certificate, or do I need to "show a bit of compassion for once"? The use of the words "for once" is strange, considering we don't know each other. Do you think these are real relationships you have online, with people who know you and vice versa? Because that's really sad.

I'm on here making a counter point to statements made about trans people (non sports related). At least I didn't come on here to seek the approval of some random woman on an online football chat forum, like you just have. Maybe go out and meet women in the real world, if you seek validation so badly.

Where the f*ck has SF, or me, or anyone else on this thread "sought the approval" of Oakey (i assume that is who you mean by the touching term "some random woman" - a borderline misogynistic comment if ever there was one)? Don't judge us by your standards. And just dial back on the aggression, would you?

 

[napolimp]

What is this comment? You're accusing me of seeking approval of a "random woman" who happens to also be a fellow city fan and a human being and not "some plank" on a forum as you stated earlier while championing the rights of trans women who don't even know you exist.

Yes, exactly what you're doing, read back your comments.

Haha, I've been happily married for the last 8 years you muppet.

Obvious lie. Nobody cares, and nobody asked.

 

[Grendel]

Yes, exactly what you're doing, read back your comments.



Obvious lie. Nobody cares, and nobody asked.

Wanker

 

[napolimp]

Where the f*ck has SF, or me, or anyone else on this thread "sought the approval" of Oakey (i assume that is who you mean by the touching term "some random woman" - a borderline misogynistic comment if ever there was one)? Don't judge us by your standards. And just dial back on the aggression, would you?

Why do you think women need you as there champion? You commented "that doesn't even begin to address the issue of safe spaces for women to change/shower, etc". How does that affect you? There is a poster on here who identified themselves as a woman and raised that as a concern of theirs. The truth is it doesn't affect you in any way whatsoever. If you feel you are such a huge champion of women, what do you do for women's rights? Do you volunteer with women's charities?

 

[duffer]

The article seems to argue that a modified biological male, who now identifies as a woman, is so nearly the same as a biological female that it matters not, let 'em play.
It cherry picks medical data about individuals and then generalises to conclude these differences are teeny weeny. It throws in the appeal for sympathy for these distressed individuals who only want to play.
It's so one sided as to be student politics level.
An article could be written from a disgruntled female athlete's perspective and draw completely contrary conclusions.

You're right, it does point out that these are people who identify as women, that want to play as such, and can point to the fact that there's no significant physical advantage in their cases and presumably others.

Whether the data is cherry picked or not is debatable, can you link to something that suggests they're making it up? The people quoted in the article are doctors, I note.

I accept that you'd deny them that right, and on that we probably differ, but I don't think it's sixth form politics any more than the stuff that you or I have been saying to support our contentions.

 

[San Francisco]

Yes, exactly what you're doing, read back your comments.



Obvious lie. Nobody cares, and nobody asked.

Good grief, do you talk like this in real life? Shocking stuff.

 

[oakey]

You're right, it does point out that these are people who identify as women, that want to play as such, and can point to the fact that there's no significant physical advantage in their cases and presumably others.

Whether the data is cherry picked or not is debatable, can you link to something that suggests they're making it up? The people quoted in the article are doctors, I note.

I accept that you'd deny them that right, and on that we probably differ, but I don't think it's sixth form politics any more than the stuff that you or I have been saying to support our contentions.

It's mainly anecdotal. What's Joanna Harper's claim that she is 12 per cent slower based on? Who has verified this? Where are the peer reviewed studies that these doctors are referring to when making assertions that these differences are minor?
It's anecdotal which is useful, but never conclusive.

There are plenty of alternatives.
Unfair play - coauthored by Sharron Davies cites 18 peer reviewed studies. You may not agree with her conclusions but you can interrogate her sources for yourself and look at critical reviews of the book for alternative studies.

 

[duffer]

It's mainly anecdotal. What's Joanna Harper's claim that she is 12 per cent slower based on? Who has verified this? Where are the peer reviewed studies that these doctors are referring to when making assertions that these differences are minor?
It's anecdotal which is useful, but never conclusive.

There are plenty of alternatives.
Unfair play - coauthored by Sharron Davies cites 18 peer reviewed studies. You may not agree with her conclusions but you can interrogate her sources for yourself and look at critical reviews of the book for alternative studies.

You're right in that I probably wouldn't agree with her conclusions, but having done some research you're also right in that it looks like there's a reasonable body of evidence that suggests that on average, trans women maintain a higher level of physical strength than the average cis woman.

Whether that justifies entirely excluding them from all women's sport is a slightly different debate, imho, but I'd agree that peer reviewed studies should trump anecdotal evidence.

How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation | British Journal of Sports Medicine

Also, a critique of Sharron Davies's book here, if you're interested in another take on it.

SG Reviews: Unfair Play: The Battle for Women's Sport by Sharron Davies - Sports Gazette

The Sports Gazette reviews Unfair Play by Sharron Davies as one of the nominees for the William Hill Book of the Year shortlist.

sportsgazette.co.uk

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

You're right in that I probably wouldn't agree with her conclusions, but having done some research you're also right in that it looks like there's a reasonable body of evidence that suggests that on average, trans women maintain a higher level of physical strength than the average cis woman.

Whether that justifies entirely excluding them from all women's sport is a slightly different debate, imho, but I'd agree that peer reviewed studies should trump anecdotal evidence.

How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation | British Journal of Sports Medicine

Also, a critique of Sharron Davies's book here, if you're interested in another take on it.

SG Reviews: Unfair Play: The Battle for Women's Sport by Sharron Davies - Sports Gazette

The Sports Gazette reviews Unfair Play by Sharron Davies as one of the nominees for the William Hill Book of the Year shortlist.

sportsgazette.co.uk

There has been much debate as to whether a trans woman taking feminising hormone therapy still retains that physical advantage if she has been through puberty as a biological male. I think some sports' governing bodies have allowed trans women in women's categories provided they have been on the hormone therapy for long enough after puberty.

 

[oakey]

You're right in that I probably wouldn't agree with her conclusions, but having done some research you're also right in that it looks like there's a reasonable body of evidence that suggests that on average, trans women maintain a higher level of physical strength than the average cis woman.

Whether that justifies entirely excluding them from all women's sport is a slightly different debate, imho, but I'd agree that peer reviewed studies should trump anecdotal evidence.

How does hormone transition in transgender women change body composition, muscle strength and haemoglobin? Systematic review with a focus on the implications for sport participation | British Journal of Sports Medicine

Also, a critique of Sharron Davies's book here, if you're interested in another take on it.

SG Reviews: Unfair Play: The Battle for Women's Sport by Sharron Davies - Sports Gazette

The Sports Gazette reviews Unfair Play by Sharron Davies as one of the nominees for the William Hill Book of the Year shortlist.

sportsgazette.co.uk

Read that review. A young journalist with a bias. Perfectly acceptable but one-sided.

 

[oakey]

Although it's interesting it's all beside the point for me and a distraction.
If transgender MTF becomes as weak as a kitten it matters not. Sport has sex categories.
I trust the two best known British biologists, Robert Winston and Richard Dawkins, who assert that Humans cannot change sex.

 

[OffenhamSkyBlue]

Although it's interesting it's all beside the point for me and a distraction.
If transgender MTF becomes as weak as a kitten it matters not. Sport has sex categories.
I trust the two best known British biologists, Robert Winston and Richard Dawkins, who assert that Humans cannot change sex.

Never 'eard of 'em!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

A genuine question as I’ve not understood this, but how do women’s teams managed by men or who have male coaches handle the changing room issue?