Do you want to discuss boring politics? (147 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Maybe you haven't lived long enough mate, because this the current Labour party is most definitely not left wing. Trust me, I am!

Also the election is not on a knife edge, particularly in this constituency.

So I'm certainly not for the status quo, but I'm also not much for a party that seems to be broadly committed to exactly the same economic policies as the one that's going.

I could just as well claim that by voting for Starmer's Labour, in broad brush terms you'll be extending the status quo but with a few minor improvements.

Anyway, as previous, I'm going to use my vote in line with my core beliefs. They haven't much shifted, but I'm the Labour party under Starmer has.

My point remains - Starmer is happy to shift the party to the right to chase Tory votes. Maybe if he sees enough votes on the left drifting away he'll realise that he's got to come to some accommodation with that side too. It might even inform some of his policy decisions when in government, who knows.

Same question to you

 

---

[Liquid Gold]

May be of interest to some.

Thank god the IPA and the NIC will be merged. Everything is saved.

 

[Philosoraptor]

Name a government you think had a more left wing policy agenda at this point.

Well Stalin did have a more left-wing structure then Hitler...

 

[duffer]

Why would you not try and get more people who didn't vote for you last time to vote for you this time?

If getting people who have voted tory to vote for you is bad then how the actual fuck could the labour party win an election without doing that?

Centre Left Labour Parties win, ones seen as being stuck on the left don't and if you don't win then what is the point?

Where did I say that getting people who voted Tory to vote Labour is bad?

I think you might be able to do that without directly copying Conservative fiscal policy though. That will be right wing fiscal policy, not centre left, for clarity.

One of the actual fuck ways to win an election is also to energise your base and the wider electorate with policies that might make a real difference, rather than relying on people hating the Tories.

It'll work this time without a doubt, in five years though, we might need a better plan.

 

[David O'Day]

Where did I say that getting people who voted Tory to vote Labour is bad?

I think you might be able to do that without directly copying Conservative fiscal policy though. That will be right wing fiscal policy, not centre left, for clarity.

One of the actual fuck ways to win an election is also to energise your base and the wider electorate with policies that might make a real difference, rather than relying on people hating the Tories.

It'll work this time without a doubt, in five years though, we might need a better plan.

They haven't copied Tory economic plans. if you are going to spout bullshit like that then let us stop this here because it's utter bollocks and if you really believe that then I have no time for you.

The base who would vote for a left wing labour party just isn't big enough to win an election though is it, it never has been.

 

[duffer]

Well it’s not yet. But come July 5th.

Name a government you think had a more left wing policy agenda at this point.

Which bits of Labour's current policy agenda could be described as left wing?

I can see lots of stuff in the pledges about security and 'fully costed', but it seems a bit short on reducing inequality (other than with a few more teachers), or bringing utilities and transport back into state ownership.

Nothing about redistribution of wealth through taxation or other processes either.

Mission-driven government – The Labour Party

Labour has a long-term plan for Britain, with five missions for national renewal.

labour.org.uk

 

[duffer]

They haven't copied Tory economic plans. if you are going to spout bullshit like that then let us stop this here because it's utter bollocks and if you really believe that then I have no time for you.

The base who would vote for a left wing labour party just isn't bi enough to win an election though is it, it never has been.

Do you understand the difference between economic plans and fiscal policy?

This Labour party has committed to the same fiscal orthodoxy as the Tories. Everything must be fully costed, and taxation will not rise. Have I mis-stated that?

 

[David O'Day]

Back in the real world, Piers is after his grand.

 

[shmmeee]

Which bits of Labour's current policy agenda could be described as left wing?

I can see lots of stuff in the pledges about security and 'fully costed', but it seems a bit short on reducing inequality (other than with a few more teachers), or bringing utilities and transport back into state ownership.

Nothing about redistribution of wealth through taxation or other processes either.

Mission-driven government – The Labour Party

Labour has a long-term plan for Britain, with five missions for national renewal.

labour.org.uk

Answer the question. Should be easy if Starmers Labour is so right wing. Which government of the last 40 years was more left wing?

 

[duffer]

Back in the real world, Piers is after his grand.

"Back in the real world"?

What is it with guys like you and shmmeee and cheap digs. If you want to debate politics, then make your case.

If you're going to sling out this pretence that you're somehow the only grown ups here, then bluntly you can bollocks too mate, because it's grindingly tedious.

I'm happy to differ, and hear everyone's opinions - mostly it's good stuff and it makes me think hard about things and whether my opinion holds water.

It makes do actual research - I had to go away and look at what Starmer's pledges were, for example. Could I be wrong about what he's said, it happens!

This kind of shit though, pointless mate... sorry.

 

[shmmeee]

"Back in the real world"?

What is it with guys like you and shmmeee and cheap digs. If you want to debate politics, then make your case.

If you're going to sling out this pretence that you're somehow the only grown ups here, then bluntly you can bollocks too mate, because it's grindingly tedious.

I'm happy to differ, and hear everyone's opinions - mostly it's good stuff and it makes me think hard about things and whether my opinion holds water.

It makes do actual research - I had to go away and look at what Starmer's pledges were, for example. Could I be wrong about what he's said, it happens!

This kind of shit though, pointless mate... sorry.

Because you keep studiously missing the point. And you imply that by not voting those who do are somehow selling out or whatever. Starmer is heading into office promising nationalised energy and rail, that alone puts him to the left of everyone post Thatcher.

 

[duffer]

Answer the question. Should be easy if Starmers Labour is so right wing. Which government of the last 40 years was more left wing?

Fair question, I lived through the late 70s, remember, so that's easy.

Moving onto Blair, whom I voted for the first time enthusiastically, I certainly had the impression he still believed in a leftish Labour party, but maybe that's because of Thatcher.

I don't see Starmer committing to the kind of change that Sure Start made though, do you?

 

[shmmeee]

Fair question, I lived through the late 70s, remember, so that's easy.

Moving onto Blair, whom I voted for the first time enthusiastically, I certainly had the impression he still believed in a leftish Labour party, but maybe that's because of Thatcher.

I don't see Starmer committing to the kind of change that Sure Start made though, do you?

Starmer is to the left of Blair. He’s taken Blair’s strategy of centrism on immigration/spending/crime but he goes much further on infrastructure than Blair did, and not through PFI. He’s less idolising of the finance sector than Blair, and not religious.

I would be on Sure Start or something of its ilk actually. Because behind all the social media nonsense Labour MPs are actually a group of left wing people who prioritise this stuff. I expect homelessness to fall. The NHS and education to improve. Sensible management of the economy. All the stuff you get with every Labour govt.

And I hate to be the one to break this to you but the 70s were not in fact in the last 40 years.

 

[wingy]

Fair question, I lived through the late 70s, remember, so that's easy.

Moving onto Blair, whom I voted for the first time enthusiastically, I certainly had the impression he still believed in a leftish Labour party, but maybe that's because of Thatcher.

I don't see Starmer committing to the kind of change that Sure Start made though, do you?

Well we see if he adopts the conservative option I guess, whatever that was/is!!

 

[duffer]

Because you keep studiously missing the point. And you imply that by not voting those who do are somehow selling out or whatever. Starmer is heading into office promising nationalised energy and rail, that alone puts him to the left of everyone post Thatcher.

If you vote for what you believe in you're not selling out. I'm not here to criticise anyone for voting Labour.

But I'm also not having that this is a left wing Labour party, or probably even what I'd think of as centre-left.

Genuine question, not a trap - Starmer isn't really proposing to nationalise either the railways or the utilities, is he?

All I see is a great British energy company, this isn't the same as nationalising utilities is it?

Similarly with railways, we're not going to see the back of the private operators under the next government, are we? Have I missed something?

Not a sarcastic question!

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

When people like the Asian friend of mine who in the past have said they would ban ‘people like himself’ from getting into the country are now considering Labour, it is a little hard to see this apparent left wing utopia that some people here see on the horizon.

The government really needs to change for the country’s sake, so I will hold my nose and vote for whoever will help get them out.

 

[duffer]

Starmer is to the left of Blair. He’s taken Blair’s strategy of centrism on immigration/spending/crime but he goes much further on infrastructure than Blair did, and not through PFI. He’s less idolising of the finance sector than Blair, and not religious.

I would be on Sure Start or something of its ilk actually. Because behind all the social media nonsense Labour MPs are actually a group of left wing people who prioritise this stuff. I expect homelessness to fall. The NHS and education to improve. Sensible management of the economy. All the stuff you get with every Labour govt.

And I hate to be the one to break this to you but the 70s were not in fact in the last 40 years.

On the last bit, you said lifetime, iirc. I can't help that you're too young.

 

[duffer]

Starmer is to the left of Blair. He’s taken Blair’s strategy of centrism on immigration/spending/crime but he goes much further on infrastructure than Blair did, and not through PFI. He’s less idolising of the finance sector than Blair, and not religious.

I would be on Sure Start or something of its ilk actually. Because behind all the social media nonsense Labour MPs are actually a group of left wing people who prioritise this stuff. I expect homelessness to fall. The NHS and education to improve. Sensible management of the economy. All the stuff you get with every Labour govt.

And I hate to be the one to break this to you but the 70s were not in fact in the last 40 years.

On your other stuff here, Starmer being to the left of Blair (at least Blair Mk.1), I'm not entirely convinced, but you've got me thinking. I'll do some more research and see if I can prove it. Otherwise I'll need to go into hiding.

For me, I guess my "left wing" touch points are, reduction of inequality, state ownership of utilities and transport, workers' rights, commitment to a welfare state, ethical foreign policies, anti-racism, stuff like that.

More than ever, environmental protection too, though I'm not sure that's actually left wing.

I, politely, just don't see much of that under Starmer's government (he's obviously anti-racist though, given). I sense that you do.

Fair enough, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

Edit: Hmm, this isn't a promising start on the Blair/Starmer debate...

Starmer is too Left-wing to govern like Blair, and the country will pay a heavy price for it

There’s no guarantee that this will lead to an immediate Tory turnaround, but eventually he’ll be sniffed out

www.telegraph.co.uk

 

[clint van damme]

If you vote for what you believe in you're not selling out. I'm not here to criticise anyone for voting Labour.

But I'm also not having that this is a left wing Labour party, or probably even what I'd think of as centre-left.

Genuine question, not a trap - Starmer isn't really proposing to nationalise either the railways or the utilities, is he?

All I see is a great British energy company, this isn't the same as nationalising utilities is it?

Similarly with railways, we're not going to see the back of the private operators under the next government, are we? Have I missed something?

Not a sarcastic question!

He's changed his mind like the weather on nationalisation.
If people want to believe him fair play, and he may well implement it in some sectors, but the incredulity when people call out his u turns is hilarious, it's a matter of record.

 

[eyesee]

it's looking likely that labour will win the election. (although, i still think a hung parliament is possible.)
labour would usually inherit low taxes and low debt, usually achieved by a period of low public spending. this time that won't be the case. covid has definitely driven up borrowing, which has resulted in higher levels of debt than the tories would normally run up. and they haven't been able to reduce taxes in the way they would normally have done.

so, limited options for labour to borrow as much as they want, which just leaves taxes as a source of funds for their plans. that'll come as a shock to a lot of people.
this could be the worst election in history for labour to win.

 

[skybluetony176]

Just on debt even without Covid debt has been growing both as a total amount and a percentage of GDP for the entire course of the Tory government. Austerity was a complete failure that stifled growth and then there’s Brexit which is a complete failure and has stifled growth. Toryonomics pre Covid outright failed. Post Covid Trussonomics… well, enough said. Debt growth is a result of failed policies and ideologies, basically political choices.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

In the words of Mark and Lard, whoooo!



SNP in opposition is a distinct possibility based on that (yes I know that the polls will narrow and the Tories will end up with more than 13 MP’s at the next GE). Although I suspect the SNP to take a hit at the next GE also. Has there ever been a coalition opposition before? What happens if non of the parties on the opposition benches don’t have the numbers to form a shadow cabinet?

This isn’t a credible poll so you need not worry about those hypothetical scenarios!

 

[clint van damme]

Just on debt even without Covid debt has been growing both as a total amount and a percentage of GDP for the entire course of the Tory government. Austerity was a complete failure that stifled growth and then there’s Brexit which is a complete failure and has stifled growth. Toryonomics pre Covid outright failed. Post Covid Trussonomics… well, enough said. Debt growth is a result of failed policies and ideologies, basically political choices.

Austerity wasn't a complete failure, it was 100% successful.
It facilitated a massive wealth transfer from working people to the already very wealthy.

 

[eyesee]

Just on debt even without Covid debt has been growing both as a total amount and a percentage of GDP for the entire course of the Tory government. Austerity was a complete failure that stifled growth and then there’s Brexit which is a complete failure and has stifled growth. Toryonomics pre Covid outright failed. Post Covid Trussonomics… well, enough said. Debt growth is a result of failed policies and ideologies, basically political choices.

some good points, but however we got here, here we are. no idea what labour do without the option of borrowing. go after the working man??

i'm not a tory, btw. quite the opposite. i'm a disillusioned labour voter, who fell out of love with them when they abandoned the working man 20 years ago.

 

[Ian1779]

Austerity wasn't a complete failure, it was 100% successful.
It facilitated a massive wealth transfer from working people to the already very wealthy.

Somewhere between 2016 and 2019 it was reasonably accepted that Austerity was a political decision to make life harder for those with the least, whilst money transferred to the richest among us. Rather than continue that narrative and unequivocally say we won’t ever go back there, Starmer appears to want to continue it.

 

[wingy]

How's the currency looking?
Been overvalued for sometime I'd wager!!

 

[eyesee]

Somewhere between 2016 and 2019 it was reasonably accepted that Austerity was a political decision to make life harder for those with the least, whilst money transferred to the richest among us. Rather than continue that narrative and unequivocally say we won’t ever go back there, Starmer appears to want to continue it.

has starmer said that?
i haven't heard a single policy from the guy yet. lots of general statements, but shit all by way of anything actually tangible.

 

[Ian1779]

has starmer said that?
i haven't heard a single policy from the guy yet. lots of general statements, but shit all by way of anything actually tangible.

It’s the notion of not changing Tory policies, for example not removing the 2 child benefit cap, which would lift hundreds of thousands of kids out of poverty instantly.

 

[eyesee]

starmer wouldn't recognise the working class if it was stood in front of him.

 

[David O'Day]

starmer wouldn't recognise the working class if it was stood in front of him.

The son of a toolmaker? Ok mate

 

[David O'Day]

 

[clint van damme]

The son of a toolmaker? Ok mate

And a nurse, I think he might have mentioned it once

 

[David O'Day]

And a nurse, I think he might have mentioned it once

Aye, he may be a "metropolitan elite human rights lawyer" but he was born to a working class family

 

[eyesee]

The son of a toolmaker? Ok mate

so?
he doesn't sound like a champion of the working man to me.

like i've already said, i'm a labour voter. but i haven't abandoned them, they've abandoned me!

 

[Grendel]

Aye, he may be a "metropolitan elite human rights lawyer" but he was born to a working class family

Margaret Thatcher and John Major were from working class backgrounds so it’s a pointless argument really