Do you want to discuss boring politics? (140 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

This is exactly what people who talk about alternative models to the NHS want. Basically they want poor people to get worse care and the rich to be able to pay for the best. Problem is most people won’t appreciate the NHS until we lose it.

No they’re not. In France, private health insurance patients can’t skip the queues like they can in this country. This apprehension around reform and considering other concepts that other healthcare systems do compared to us is a blocker to fixing the issues we have.

It’s paranoia to think it’s either our way or the brutality of the US system.

 

---

[SBT]

I think the forum will decide who is the total twat to be fair

Ok - take it easy then

 

[Grendel]

Ok - take it easy then

You really are coming across as a real drama queen - no one cares what you think

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sorry I meant an actual source showing over demand.

Without wanting to sound arsey, what’s with you posting this kind of source? Under grad essays and student resources are a bit, um, weak shall we say. Politicians saying things as we know doesn’t necessarily line up with reality.

It’s from one of Attlee’s biographers. The decision to reintroduce prescriptions caused Bevan, Harold Wilson and others to resign from government. It was a twofold issue, there was a pressing need for defence spending (as it is today) as well as people overusing the new service.

Then there’s just common sense, why would you pay small fees for drugs like painkillers if they’re available for free?

 

[shmmeee]

It’s from one of Attlee’s biographers. The decision to reintroduce prescriptions caused Bevan, Harold Wilson and others to resign from government. It was a twofold issue, there was a pressing need for defence spending (as it is today) as well as people overusing the new service.

Then there’s just common sense, why would you pay small fees for drugs like painkillers if they’re available for free?

So no evidence then? “Common sense” and a politicians opinion from almost 80 years ago.

As FP has already said, doctors have to prescribe. Patients don’t choose what drugs they get.

With all due respect we’ve shitted up this thread enough and you keep refusing to produce any evidence for your views so we’re just going round in circles. So I won’t reply on this any more. Suffice to say my opinion that you’ve got a fringe view informed by a terrible media diet remains.

 

[shmmeee]

Gap still widening…

From Opinium, who give don’t knows their 2019 vote or ask a squeeze I think so are one of the more generous ones towards Tories.

 

[fernandopartridge]

I genuinely hope for Tory electoral wipeout, the fear that Labour will squander it is far greater though.

If you've got such a massive majority, be fucking radical.

 

[fernandopartridge]

It’s from one of Attlee’s biographers. The decision to reintroduce prescriptions caused Bevan, Harold Wilson and others to resign from government. It was a twofold issue, there was a pressing need for defence spending (as it is today) as well as people overusing the new service.

Then there’s just common sense, why would you pay small fees for drugs like painkillers if they’re available for free?

It's not people over-using, once again the control point is the prescriber. The reason for changing was simply just a clean way to reduce spending without any real public dissent. It's not because the public is predisposed to take prescription drugs. If it was, how would your insurance based system deal with it?

 

[clint van damme]

It’s paranoia to think it’s either our way or the brutality of the US system.

No it's not . We all know that's what certain elements of the political class are pushing for.

If they weren't then maybe people would be more open to a debate.

 

[fernandopartridge]

No it's not . We all know that's what certain elements of the political class are pushing for.

If they weren't then maybe people would be more open to a debate.

See every other privatised service in this country, the sole objective has been to create profit. No improvement in services or investment, just declining services with margins protected at all costs.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

See every other privatised service in this country, the sole objective has been to create profit. No improvement in services or investment, just declining services with margins protected at all costs.

Facebook history tells me that some of the memories and memes are just not true over the last 12-13 years including ones about this is the last election to save the nhs ones
If we want grown up solutions to complex problems we need to be willing to engage in more meaningful debate

 

[fernandopartridge]

Facebook history tells me that some of the memories and memes are just not true over the last 12-13 years including ones about this is the last election to save the nhs ones
If we want grown up solutions to complex problems we need to be willing to engage in more meaningful debate

Explain please

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Explain please

Every election the tories won my left leaning friends were saying if the tories won the nhs would be broken up and sold and we’d have us style health delivery
It was bollox
So let’s have a bit more of a grown up debate

 

[shmmeee]

It's not people over-using, once again the control point is the prescriber. The reason for changing was simply just a clean way to reduce spending without any real public dissent. It's not because the public is predisposed to take prescription drugs. If it was, how would your insurance based system deal with it?

Luckily we can look to the US which is fully private and has had absolutely no issues with over prescription of drugs. San Fransisco streets full of sensible people taking only as much opiates as they need.

 

[clint van damme]

Every election the tories won my left leaning friends were saying if the tories won the nhs would be broken up and sold and we’d have us style health delivery
It was bollox
So let’s have a bit more of a grown up debate

Just because it hasn't happened so far doesn't mean its not the plan.
It's not as if they try to hide it that much, there's plenty of evidence to back it up

 

[chiefdave]

Every election the tories won my left leaning friends were saying if the tories won the nhs would be broken up and sold and we’d have us style health delivery
It was bollox
So let’s have a bit more of a grown up debate

Think the issue here is that a lot of people view the NHS being privatised as meaning a US style system where if you can't afford insurance and to pay for the cost of treatment you're screwed.

In reality it means the areas of routine treatment, where it's relatively easy to make profit, is passed to the private sector. Meanwhile long term, complex and expensive treatment stays in the NHS.

Then there's the issue of staffing. How many front line staff are now working on a 'temp' basis via private agencies who charge far more than it costs for the NHS to employ them directly?

 

[shmmeee]

Think the issue here is that a lot of people view the NHS being privatised as meaning a US style system where if you can't afford insurance and to pay for the cost of treatment you're screwed.

In reality it means the areas of routine treatment, where it's relatively easy to make profit, is passed to the private sector. Meanwhile long term, complex and expensive treatment stays in the NHS.

Then there's the issue of staffing. How many front line staff are now working on a 'temp' basis via private agencies who charge far more than it costs for the NHS to employ them directly?

Yeah this is always the strategy. Cut away funding, cut staff so service levels drop, claim “it’s unsustainable and we just need a sensible discussion about options”, then completely fail to have that sensible discussion and rely on bad RW memes and vibes as we’ve seen in this thread.

 

[CCFCSteve]

.

Then there's the issue of staffing. How many front line staff are now working on a 'temp' basis via private agencies who charge far more than it costs for the NHS to employ them directly?

yeah this is a major issue and something needs to be done about it but ultimately these are workers deciding they’d rather do that to earn more and get greater fl

I spoke to a senior consultant a couple of years ago and he said the reason many nurses at his hospital were going to temp agency work is the rotas/planning was a shambles. so many, especially those with young families, were struggling to get sufficient visibility on their future timetables.

It’s another one on the list of issues I have with the nhs and why I believe they could do better than they do currently if there was better planning and management

 

[shmmeee]

yeah this is a major issue and something needs to be done about it but ultimately these are workers deciding they’d rather do that to earn more and get greater fl

I spoke to a senior consultant a couple of years ago and he said the reason many nurses at his hospital were going to temp agency work is the rotas/planning was a shambles. so many, especially those with young families, were struggling to get sufficient visibility on their future timetables.

It’s another one on the list of issues I have with the nhs and why I believe they could do better than they do currently if there was better planning and management

It’s money Steve. My missus has just qualified as a pharmacy tech and the main reason she trained was to qualify for locum work because it pays so much better. If her wage was anything close to reasonable she’d be happy to stay doing what she’s doing.

 

[Skybluekyle]

I personally think the NHS being a staple of "British pride" is what is saving it from privatisation. The good thing is that the Tories know they will lose badly at the polls. I find it weird that people have "national pride", but it is a good thing when it comes to the NHS, I think

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Facebook history tells me that some of the memories and memes are just not true over the last 12-13 years including ones about this is the last election to save the nhs ones
If we want grown up solutions to complex problems we need to be willing to engage in more meaningful debate

Every election the tories won my left leaning friends were saying if the tories won the nhs would be broken up and sold and we’d have us style health delivery
It was bollox
So let’s have a bit more of a grown up debate

If you actually care about the NHS, the worst thing you could do is pretend everything is all ok and money will just solve all the problems.

It’s wishful thinking and even Labour accept that is not a tenable long term solution. There’s no easy answers and without meaningful reforms, the NHS is on borrowed time, frankly.

The staff are underpaid, patient satisfaction is low and our health outcomes are ‘middle of the pack’. In any case, the NHS is not the envy of the world and we could, and should, learn what we can from other healthcare systems.

 

[chiefdave]

yeah this is a major issue and something needs to be done about it but ultimately these are workers deciding they’d rather do that to earn more and get greater fl

I spoke to a senior consultant a couple of years ago and he said the reason many nurses at his hospital were going to temp agency work is the rotas/planning was a shambles. so many, especially those with young families, were struggling to get sufficient visibility on their future timetables.

It’s another one on the list of issues I have with the nhs and why I believe they could do better than they do currently if there was better planning and management

From the experience of my ex-wifes department it's definitely not all staff leaving for more money, but if it is then the obvious answer is pay them properly, we all know another huge part of the staffing issue is they can earn far more if they're prepared to move overseas. Her experience was a cut to the budget leading to cuts to staff. The newly unemployed staff were then recruited by agencies and paid the same rate they were perviously on to provide 'emergency cover' when the hospital was unable to operate with the reduced staffing levels they now had due to budget cuts.

Not sure the timetable thing really makes much sense. If agency staff are being used to fill in the gaps when NHS staff aren't available then surely they get less notice than those directly employed by the NHS? For example when I was in hospital recently I overheard nursing staff being offered extra shifts to cover shortages and if there were no takers it was agency plugging the gaps.

 

[Sick Boy]

The staff are underpaid, patient satisfaction is low and our health outcomes are ‘middle of the pack’. In any case, the NHS is not the envy of the world and we could, and should, learn what we can from other healthcare systems.

Which ones in particular? I'm pretty sure that there are a few European models that are based on the NHS.

 

[shmmeee]

From the experience of my ex-wifes department it's definitely not all staff leaving for more money, but if it is then the obvious answer is pay them properly, we all know another huge part of the staffing issue is they can earn far more if they're prepared to move overseas. Her experience was a cut to the budget leading to cuts to staff. The newly unemployed staff were then recruited by agencies and paid the same rate they were perviously on to provide 'emergency cover' when the hospital was unable to operate with the reduced staffing levels they now had due to budget cuts.

Not sure the timetable thing really makes much sense. If agency staff are being used to fill in the gaps when NHS staff aren't available then surely they get less notice than those directly employed by the NHS? For example when I was in hospital recently I overheard nursing staff being offered extra shifts to cover shortages and if there were no takers it was agency plugging the gaps.

Exactly the same thing happening in schools. Paying through the nose for supply cos they can’t find full time teachers.

 

[chiefdave]

Did Sunak really announce a plan to save the NHS that is 100 extra GP surgeries and pushing more work on to pharmacies.

I actually agree with pushing more to pharmacies in theory but as with everything what they've done already is not being properly funded and there's been reports that pharmacies are now at risk of closure as providing the additional services means they're running at a loss.

Pharmacy closures in England are ‘skyrocketing’, NPA warns

Drawing on NHS figures, the NPA said 177 pharmacies closed between January and April 2024 compared with 116 in the same period last year.

www.pharmacymagazine.co.uk

 

[chiefdave]

Exactly the same thing happening in schools. Paying through the nose for supply cos they can’t find full time teachers.

Now I wonder who benefits from the huge profits those agencies make

 

[Sick Boy]

From the experience of my ex-wifes department it's definitely not all staff leaving for more money, but if it is then the obvious answer is pay them properly, we all know another huge part of the staffing issue is they can earn far more if they're prepared to move overseas. Her experience was a cut to the budget leading to cuts to staff. The newly unemployed staff were then recruited by agencies and paid the same rate they were perviously on to provide 'emergency cover' when the hospital was unable to operate with the reduced staffing levels they now had due to budget cuts.

Not sure the timetable thing really makes much sense. If agency staff are being used to fill in the gaps when NHS staff aren't available then surely they get less notice than those directly employed by the NHS? For example when I was in hospital recently I overheard nursing staff being offered extra shifts to cover shortages and if there were no takers it was agency plugging the gaps.

When my wife worked in the NHS I heard all sorts of horror stories and 'code black' situations. Each time they were due to being understaffed and underfunded. She'd work 12 hours at a time and wouldn't get any break whatsoever.

 

[shmmeee]

Did Sunak really announce a plan to save the NHS that is 100 extra GP surgeries and pushing more work on to pharmacies.

I actually agree with pushing more to pharmacies in theory but as with everything what they've done already is not being properly funded and there's been reports that pharmacies are now at risk of closure as providing the additional services means they're running at a loss.

Pharmacy closures in England are ‘skyrocketing’, NPA warns

Drawing on NHS figures, the NPA said 177 pharmacies closed between January and April 2024 compared with 116 in the same period last year.

www.pharmacymagazine.co.uk

I think 111 needs massive reform. It pushes everyone to A&E by default out of fear cos the staff aren’t medically trained, GP receptionists as well perhaps, should be pushing far more people to pharmacy first then GPs.

We’re in an age where medically tuned MoE LLMs are shown to be as effective as a panel of doctors at diagnosis, time to use the tech and make 111 what it was supposed to be in terms of low cost self triage.

 

[shmmeee]

Now I wonder who benefits from the huge profits those agencies make

I mean probably. Supply agencies make bank for old rope.

But I think Hanlon’s Razor applies here: more incompetence than malice. It’s Tory thinking all over “oh let’s freeze public sector pay to save some cash…oh wait why can’t we find any staff and have to pay through the nose for temps??”

 

[CCFCSteve]

It’s money Steve. My missus has just qualified as a pharmacy tech and the main reason she trained was to qualify for locum work because it pays so much better. If her wage was anything close to reasonable she’d be happy to stay doing what she’s doing.

This was from a senior consultant at the QE mate so I’ll take it as fact. That’s not to say many won’t choose to do agency/locum work for the extra cash as well, that’s their personal choice but hardly a plan to privatise the nhs - if individuals didn’t choose to do agency work they’d be no business

It’s like there’s two extremes here, the nhs is perfect and just needs more money or let’s scrap the whole model. I’m somewhere inbetween ie increase funding but get some proper longer term plans in place and make some rather obvious changes and improvements (culturally and management)

 

[Ian1779]

Every election the tories won my left leaning friends were saying if the tories won the nhs would be broken up and sold and we’d have us style health delivery
It was bollox
So let’s have a bit more of a grown up debate

It’s happening by stealth, whilst the main services are defunded year on year, and the staffing crisis gets worse.
See also education.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

This was from a senior consultant at the QE mate so I’ll take it as fact. That’s not to say many won’t choose to do agency/locum work for the extra cash as well, that’s their personal choice but hardly a plan to privatise the nhs - if individuals didn’t choose to do agency work they’d be no business

It’s like there’s two extremes here, the nhs is perfect and just needs more money or let’s scrap the whole model. I’m somewhere inbetween ie increase funding but get some proper longer term plans in place and make some rather obvious changes and improvements (culturally and management)

The extra money from agency/ work doesn't go to the worker it goes to the agencies. Of course the problem is the quality of agency staff is often much lower than permanent staff, even though they cost much more.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I think 111 needs massive reform. It pushes everyone to A&E by default out of fear cos the staff aren’t medically trained, GP receptionists as well perhaps, should be pushing far more people to pharmacy first then GPs.

We’re in an age where medically tuned MoE LLMs are shown to be as effective as a panel of doctors at diagnosis, time to use the tech and make 111 what it was supposed to be in terms of low cost self triage.

Exactly this type of stuff. GP appointments ‘cost’ around £30-40 yet A&E costs something like 400. GPs aren’t available out of hours and many not at weekends….where does everyone end up

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

If you actually care about the NHS, the worst thing you could do is pretend everything is all ok and money will just solve all the problems.

It’s wishful thinking and even Labour accept that is not a tenable long term solution. There’s no easy answers and without meaningful reforms, the NHS is on borrowed time, frankly.

The staff are underpaid, patient satisfaction is low and our health outcomes are ‘middle of the pack’. In any case, the NHS is not the envy of the world and we could, and should, learn what we can from other healthcare systems.

I don’t think I am or would but that’s probably part of what I’m saying

 

[CCFCSteve]

The extra money from agency/ work doesn't go to the worker it goes to the agencies. Of course the problem is the quality of agency staff is often much lower than permanent staff, even though they cost much more.

I know of some agency staff who do very well. If it’s last minute staff will negotiate what they want and agency will obviously stick profit on top of this