Do you want to discuss boring politics? (130 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It’s not going to ever resolve though is it. We already have a huge skills shortage, and if climate change continues there will be a huge exodus of people in Europe, of which some will inevitably arrive with us.

It will, one way or the other. Either the priorities of the electorate are resolved by existing parties or new parties. The last thing we need as a country is to import the latest craze of European politics; rehabilitated and ‘genuinely’ far right major political party.

On the skills gap, this is where we need to think long term and refocusing our education policies to deliver the skills our economy needs.

 

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[Deleted member 9744]

The electorate wants net migration to be reduced. Pre-Tony Blair the figure was less than 50k per year and the latest figures it’s up to 750k or thereabouts. Even Keir Starmer gave the ‘read my lips’ followed by a promise to get net migration down.

I’m not sure the state can manage as the infrastructure to keep up with the current volume, it’s huge. For example, something in the region of 515k new houses needed per year.

I say this as someone who is pro-immigration.

I am part of the electorate and I don't believe immigration is an issue. The electorate isn't just Daily Mail/Express readers you know. It has just been weaponised by the Tories to create a scapegoat for their failings in running the country. Virtually all studies have shown immigrants create more wealth for the country than they take out. And the NHS and social care in particular would be decimated without immigration.

OK tell me how Farage's differ from the Groups you mention in Germany and Italy. I guess you support the Rwanda policy? Tell me how that differs from the National Front's central policy in the 1980s.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

It will, one way or the other. Either the priorities of the electorate are resolved by existing parties or new parties. The last thing we need as a country is to import the latest craze of European politics; rehabilitated and ‘genuinely’ far right major political party.

On the skills gap, this is where we need to think long term and refocusing our education policies to deliver the skills our economy needs.

And how would that provide the doctors, nurses and social care workers we need now?

 

[Grendel]

I am part of the electorate and I don't believe immigration is an issue. The electorate isn't just Daily Mail/Express readers you know. It has just been weaponised by the Tories to create a scapegoat for their failings in running the country. Virtually all studies have shown immigrants create more wealth for the country than they take out. And the NHS and social care in particular would be decimated without immigration.

OK tell me how Farage's differ from the Groups you mention in Germany and Italy. I guess you support the Rwanda policy? Tell me how that differs from the National Front's central policy in the 1980s.

Im not either but labour and the tories are. They see it as a huge issue. Yvette cooper didn’t rule out finding another proxy country as Eu countries also are. Labour have never said ideologically they are opposed to Rwanda but its cost.

I’m afraid you confuse this as right wing. It’s just hard left against hard right. The Labour Party of the early 80’s had similar views to Farage on migration. Michael Foot and Enoch Powell were very close friends

It’s really liberal policy that sees immigration as beneficial as well as mild conservatism- socialists oppose totally

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I am part of the electorate and I don't believe immigration is an issue. The electorate isn't just Daily Mail/Express readers you know. It has just been weaponised by the Tories to create a scapegoat for their failings in running the country. Virtually all studies have shown immigrants create more wealth for the country than they take out. And the NHS and social care in particular would be decimated without immigration.

OK tell me how Farage's differ from the Groups you mention in Germany and Italy. I guess you support the Rwanda policy? Tell me how that differs from the National Front's central policy in the 1980s.

Immigration might not be an issue for you, but for the electorate, it’s always a top 5 issues. After the cost of living crisis, 18% of people said immigration is their single most important issue.

How are they different? Well, their background isn’t rooted in neo-nazi movements and both Farage and Tice are Thatcherite in reality.

Click the link below, for more details

General election 2024: what are the most important issues for voters? | YouGov

While 2019 may have been the Brexit election, few see it as a top issue this time round

yougov.co.uk

 

[Grendel]

Immigration might not be an issue for you, but for the electorate, it’s always a top 5 issues. After the cost of living crisis, 18% of people said immigration is their single most important issue.

How are they different? Well, their background isn’t rooted in neo-nazi movements and both Farage and Tice are Thatcherite in reality.

Click the link below, for more details

General election 2024: what are the most important issues for voters? | YouGov

While 2019 may have been the Brexit election, few see it as a top issue this time round

yougov.co.uk

Thatcher was nothing like Farage - she was a europhile who backed the ERM up to the point of collapse.

 

[shmmeee]

The Tory party will find a way to repurpose itself. It’s been one of the organic and flexible political parties in the western world. For better or worst depending on your viewpoint.

Some interesting parallels with the Canadian Tories as Farage pointed out who themselves have been took over.

It feels like we’re coming to the end of the latest ‘consensus’ in our political system. The electorate wants things to change under Labour and to be honest, I think there’ll be a lot of disappointed people.

Every government ends in disappointment. Otherwise we’d be Japan. But broad church political parties should at least try to represent a mainstream opinion. The Conservative Party purely exists to further the interests of the landed elite and essentially has a front to make it palatable outside of that elite which obviously wouldn’t win a democratic majority on its own. They don’t care about immigration because the people they actually make policy for want it, but they pretend they do to get a mandate. At least Reform are honest?

 

[shmmeee]

On the skills gap, this is where we need to think long term and refocusing our education policies to deliver the skills our economy needs.

This was the mistake Blair made and frankly it fucked up the education system. The purpose of schools and universities isn’t to try and meet the whims of the market and when they try they inevitably let down students.

What’s needed is proper incentives for business to train up staff. The education system is a 21 year system and will never be up to date with the latest trends. It should be providing a solid base for students to move into any area that arises.

This is actually one of the few things the Tories got right in education. A skills based curriculum was a mess.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I personally think the NHS being a staple of "British pride" is what is saving it from privatisation. The good thing is that the Tories know they will lose badly at the polls. I find it weird that people have "national pride", but it is a good thing when it comes to the NHS, I think

It’s one of the greatest things this country has ever done, so too right people want to protect it. When you introduce a motive for profit into a health system the focus begins to move away from the patient.

Just look at what privatisation has done to our schools for a warning of how it would unfold

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Im not either but labour and the tories are. They see it as a huge issue. Yvette cooper didn’t rule out finding another proxy country as Eu countries also are. Labour have never said ideologically they are opposed to Rwanda but its cost.

I’m afraid you confuse this as right wing. It’s just hard left against hard right. The Labour Party of the early 80’s had similar views to Farage on migration. Michael Foot and Enoch Powell were very close friends

It’s really liberal policy that sees immigration as beneficial as well as mild conservatism- socialists oppose totally

Trade unionists are also concerned with low income migration and this was the case historically too.

It’s not an issue that impacts me directly, but indirect issue of housing prices does.

Our economy has become overly reliant on low skill migration.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

This was the mistake Blair made and frankly it fucked up the education system. The purpose of schools and universities isn’t to try and meet the whims of the market and when they try they inevitably let down students.

What’s needed is proper incentives for business to train up staff. The education system is a 21 year system and will never be up to date with the latest trends. It should be providing a solid base for students to move into any area that arises.

This is actually one of the few things the Tories got right in education. A skills based curriculum was a mess.

Yep, the 50% of school leavers going to uni was a mistake in hindsight. I won’t knock the honourable intentions.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Im not either but labour and the tories are. They see it as a huge issue. Yvette cooper didn’t rule out finding another proxy country as Eu countries also are. Labour have never said ideologically they are opposed to Rwanda but its cost.

I’m afraid you confuse this as right wing. It’s just hard left against hard right. The Labour Party of the early 80’s had similar views to Farage on migration. Michael Foot and Enoch Powell were very close friends

It’s really liberal policy that sees immigration as beneficial as well as mild conservatism- socialists oppose totally

There is nothing intrinsically anti immigration in socialism.

 

[shmmeee]

Trade unionists are also concerned with low income migration and this was the case historically too.

It’s not an issue that impacts me directly, but indirect issue of housing prices does.

Our economy has become overly reliant on low skill migration.

Corbynite.

Jeremy Corbyn: “wholesale” EU immigration has destroyed conditions for British workers

The Labour leader has told Andrew Marr that his party wants to leave the single market.

www.newstatesman.com

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Trade unionists are also concerned with low income migration and this was the case historically too.

It’s not an issue that impacts me directly, but indirect issue of housing prices does.

Our economy has become overly reliant on low skill migration.

So where do you suggest we get doctors, nurses and social care workers from?

 

[shmmeee]

Yep, the 50% of school leavers going to uni was a mistake in hindsight. I won’t knock the honourable intentions.

Disagree. And 50% of school leavers don’t go to uni, it’s more like 30% but 50% of adults (I think) do over their lifetime.

But uni shouldn’t be to get you a job and that’s not why the wealthy send their kids to it (for all his bluster I guarantee Sunak kids will all go). It should be to train you in higher level thinking which applies anywhere.

Business needs to be better at picking up grads and non grads and moulding them into productive workers.

Problem is that now we don’t have long term employment there’s less incentive to do so. Not sure how you square that circle. Government is too slow to be reactive to market needs and business needs guarantees they aren’t wasting cash on someone who won’t pay it back.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

Immigration might not be an issue for you, but for the electorate, it’s always a top 5 issues. After the cost of living crisis, 18% of people said immigration is their single most important issue.

How are they different? Well, their background isn’t rooted in neo-nazi movements and both Farage and Tice are Thatcherite in reality.

Click the link below, for more details

General election 2024: what are the most important issues for voters? | YouGov

While 2019 may have been the Brexit election, few see it as a top issue this time round

yougov.co.uk

I am part of the electorate.

As I said it's only an issue because it has been made so by the Tories and Farage backed by the right wing press like the Mail. Picking on minorities and othering them has been used by poor administrations throughout history to cover up for poor Governance. They need a scapegoat. In reality immigrants add more to society than they take out.

 

[Grendel]

There is nothing intrinsically anti immigration in socialism.

So Michael foot wasn’t socialist? For real?

 

[shmmeee]

I am part of the electorate.

As I said it's only an issue because it has been made so by the Tories and Farage backed by the right wing press like the Mail. Picking on minorities and othering them has been used by poor administrations throughout history to cover up for poor Governance. They need a scapegoat. In reality immigrants add more to society than they take out.

I think that misunderstands the relationship between the public and the right wing TBH. Farage doesn’t want fewer immigrants, he wants less tax. But no one will leave the EU to get stock brokers paying less tax. The right use issues that matter to the public but the left won’t touch to get elected IMO. See also women’s rights right now. They don’t care, mixed sex wards have increased and provision of single sex DV services have decreased on their watch. But they know it makes the left squeamish to talk about.

The right don’t care about child grooming gangs, they’ve not implemented any of the recommendations that came out of Rotherham and Tommy Robinson has done more to endanger convictions than get them. But it’s an emotive issue that the left won’t touch (see what happened to Sarah Champion), so they use it for support.

If you talk to people a lot do have issues with the level of immigration post 2005, and yes some are outright racists, but not a majority. Thats why it’s a successful tactic for the right.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Thatcher was nothing like Farage - she was a europhile who backed the ERM up to the point of collapse.

Disagree. And 50% of school leavers don’t go to uni, it’s more like 30% but 50% of adults (I think) do over their lifetime.

But uni shouldn’t be to get you a job and that’s not why the wealthy send their kids to it (for all his bluster I guarantee Sunak kids will all go). It should be to train you in higher level thinking which applies anywhere.

Business needs to be better at picking up grads and non grads and moulding them into productive workers.

Problem is that now we don’t have long term employment there’s less incentive to do so. Not sure how you square that circle. Government is too slow to be reactive to market needs and business needs guarantees they aren’t wasting cash on someone who won’t pay it back.

To clarify, the 50% school leavers to uni was a target - not an outcome. I didn’t make that clear at all, my bad.

I went to uni so know everything you just said. Frankly, there are too many uni places and this well meaning policy was partly a consideration when tripling tutition fees and that failing policy is straining on the public purse.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

He really put the boot in to the tories in his speech so it sounded like he's preparing to go head to head with them.

Now if Boris joins they’ll win it all

 

[Grendel]

Dave Nellist is utterly opposed to the Eu and I don’t think he’s anything but a socialist

 

[shmmeee]

To clarify, the 50% school leavers to uni was a target - not an outcome. I didn’t make that clear at all, my bad.

I went to uni so know everything you just said. Frankly, there are too many uni places and this well meaning policy was partly a consideration when tripling tutition fees and that failing policy is straining on the public purse.

I just think we need an economy that makes use of the grads rather than one based on warehouse work and Deliveroo drivers TBH.

 

[clint van damme]

Well, immigration is an issue in this country that could truly turn toxic if it’s not resolved this election. The electorate thought Brexit would resolve the issue and it hasn’t and people are angered by this, left (blue labour) and right alike.

A quick look over the pond to the continent and there are some truly nasty people and parties polling well.

I’ve been to Italy 3 times and seen some really unpleasant graffiti in two (apparently) traditionally centre-left cities (Fiorentina & Genoa); swastikas and anti-Jewish slogans that wouldn’t look out of place in 1930-40s Germany. Really not surprised there are neo-Nazis for MEPs in the European elections. Then look at RN in France, AfD in Germany and you really can’t compare them to Farage and Reform.

He's shared a platform with and endorsed AfD in the past.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

So Michael foot wasn’t socialist? For real?

I said there is nothing intrinsically anti immigration in socialism. I didn't say no socialists are anti immigration.

 

[Grendel]

I said there is nothing intrinsically anti immigration in socialism. I didn't say no socialists are anti immigration.

Socialists are by their beliefs opposed as they are to a federal EU state

 

[shmmeee]

I said there is nothing intrinsically anti immigration in socialism. I didn't say no socialists are anti immigration.

There is TBF. Protectionism and government intervention are left wing concepts. Open borders are liberalism surely?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I am part of the electorate.

As I said it's only an issue because it has been made so by the Tories and Farage backed by the right wing press like the Mail. Picking on minorities and othering them has been used by poor administrations throughout history to cover up for poor Governance. They need a scapegoat. In reality immigrants add more to society than they take out.

That’s your view on things. Look up Paul Embrey for a socialist/Blue Labour take on immigration. Even to satisfy your own curiosity.

 

[shmmeee]

That’s your view on things. Look up Paul Embrey for a socialist/Blue Labour take on immigration. Even to satisfy your own curiosity.

Any of the old left really. One of many reasons the likes of Corbyn and McDonnell were always the wrong people for the modern “libertarian socialist” youth left movement.

 

[Sick Boy]

Takeover bid after the election?

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to see him end up in the Tories and eventually their leader.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

There is TBF. Protectionism and government intervention are left wing concepts. Open borders are liberalism surely?

Socialism was originally an internationalist movement. In this country there are elements of the left who see it more in terms of protectionism and isolationism, so that is why I used the word intrinsic.

 

[wingy]

Socialists are by their beliefs opposed as they are to a federal EU state

Explain me then?

 

[Deleted member 9744]

I genuinely wouldn't be surprised to see him end up in the Tories and eventually their leader.

It's been coming for some time. His attendance at the party conference (still trying to get the image of him dancing with Priti Patel out of my mind) was all part of his bid to succeed Sunak in my view.

 

[Deleted member 9744]

I think that misunderstands the relationship between the public and the right wing TBH. Farage doesn’t want fewer immigrants, he wants less tax. But no one will leave the EU to get stock brokers paying less tax. The right use issues that matter to the public but the left won’t touch to get elected IMO. See also women’s rights right now. They don’t care, mixed sex wards have increased and provision of single sex DV services have decreased on their watch. But they know it makes the left squeamish to talk about.

The right don’t care about child grooming gangs, they’ve not implemented any of the recommendations that came out of Rotherham and Tommy Robinson has done more to endanger convictions than get them. But it’s an emotive issue that the left won’t touch (see what happened to Sarah Champion), so they use it for support.

If you talk to people a lot do have issues with the level of immigration post 2005, and yes some are outright racists, but not a majority. Thats why it’s a successful tactic for the right.

Farage does want fewer immigrants, but not too many fewer as otherwise he would have no one to scapegoat, and thus no point.

It's like when Brexit happened the Tories could no longer blame our shortcomings on Europe, so it all falls to them now.

 

[Sick Boy]

It's been coming for some time. His attendance at the party conference (still trying to get the image of him dancing with Priti Patel out if my mind) was all part of his bid to succeed Sunak in my view.

I haven’t had the pleasure of seeing that, thanks for letting me know!

 

[Grendel]

Socialism was originally an internationalist movement. In this country there are elements of the left who see it more in terms of protectionism and isolationism, so that is why I used the word intrinsic.

When was it - certainly not in 1980’s Britain!