Do you want to discuss boring politics? (164 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

There’s a difference between your personal views and what you get elected to do. Thatcher admitted she wanted to introduce charges for hospital stays and GP visits but didn’t introduce it because she campaigned specifically not to do.

You really are the most credulous person I’ve ever come across.

Don’t suppose you’re in the market for a bridge?

 

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[Mucca Mad Boys]

You really are the most credulous person I’ve ever come across.

Don’t suppose you’re in the market for a bridge?

Why do you have to make things so personal?

Not every leader of a political party adopts all of their personal opinions as party policy - they have an election to win.

As for Farage, he’s not going to be in government so has the freedom to say things without needing to implement anything.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

He was a UKIP MP going against their policy. Of course that's pretty much how he turned the party from what it was formed to do in to the vehicle it was for his personal crusade.
And thats the weakest defence of him I've heard yet.
You cannot have a rational debate about reform of the NHS when Wolves like Farage and his backers are hovering.

You need politicians whose motivation is the best heathcare possible for the public, that's is 100 percent not Farages motivation in anything he does.

Do you trust Kier Starmer when he said he wouldn’t send a family member to a private hospital who was on a NHS waiting list and in need of surgery?

His answer was revealing.

 

[nicksar]

The Labour candidate for Rugby John Slinger knocked my door this morning,I had a five minute chat with him really nice bloke... asked me the obvious question and i said yes I will be voting for him.He did say his aim is to be a good M.P. focussing on local issues, seems particularly keen on affordable housing provision,he also mentioned he is also a member of the co-operative party so centre-left with views very similar to my own.

 

[clint van damme]

Do you trust Kier Starmer when he said he wouldn’t send a family member to a private hospital who on a NHS waiting list and in need of surgery?

His answer was revealing.

I definitely don't trust Kier Starmer, no.
And I distrust Farage far more.
If you want a serious, cards on the table debate on NHS reform, Farage isn't the man to instigate it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I definitely don't trust Kier Starmer, no.
And I distrust Farage far more.
If you want a serious, cards on the table debate on NHS reform, Farage isn't the man to instigate it.

You’re right because he’s not going to in Government or Opposition come July 5th.

UKIP, Farage specifically, got the Brexit debate into the mainstream as all the mainstream parties were predominantly Remainer parties pre-2016. It’s almost the job of fringe parties to pull Labour or Tory to the left or right in line with what the public wants. For example, it took the Labour Party splitting with the SDP before New Labour came about.

 

[nicksar]

While I'm thinking about it the Reform candidate for Rugby is a friend of my youngest daughter (I was gobsmacked when she told me tbh).....I can say with almost 100% certainty that her political career spans a whole 3 months tops.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Christ, people will be trusting Mark Gordon and Constance Martin with babysitting duties next

 

[clint van damme]

You’re right because he’s not going to in Government or Opposition come July 5th.

UKIP, Farage specifically, got the Brexit debate into the mainstream as all the mainstream parties were predominantly Remainer parties pre-2016. It’s almost the job of fringe parties to pull Labour or Tory to the left or right in line with what the public wants. For example, it took the Labour Party splitting with the SDP before New Labour came about.

Well I would also add that up until 14 years ago the NHS had a high satisfaction rating, maybe we try and get it back to those standards first.

Given all the other facets of life in this country that are failing maybe we see how the new management get on before we tear everything down and start again. The tory hand is clearly all over everything that's gone to shit.

I can't say I've any confidence in Starmer and Co but I might be proven wrong and hopefully will.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I can't say I've any confidence in Starmer and Co but I might be proven wrong and hopefully will.

I have a feeling they might be quite dangerous to have in power.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Well I would also add that up until 14 years ago the NHS had a high satisfaction rating, maybe we try and get it back to those standards first.

Given all the other facets of life in this country that are failing maybe we see how the new management get on before we tear everything down and start again. The tory hand is clearly all over everything that's gone to shit.

I can't say I've any confidence in Starmer and Co but I might be proven wrong and hopefully will.

I for one, agree.

One of my first posts on this topic said that there’s a lot of pressure on Labour to fix the NHS in the next 1-2 parliaments before there’s a serious national conversation on how fund healthcare.

There’s an assumption that Labour will come in and just like that, it’ll be fixed. In my view, that would be a naive belief.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

I for one, agree.

One of my first posts on this topic said that there’s a lot of pressure on Labour to fix the NHS in the next 1-2 parliaments before there’s a serious national conversation on how fund healthcare.

There’s an assumption that Labour will come in and just like that, it’ll be fixed. In my view, that would be a naive belief.

So the Tories wreck something and if Labour can’t fix it in less time then that means we need to discuss binning it off?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

So the Tories wreck something and if Labour can’t fix it in less time then that means we need to discuss binning it off?

That’s a rather naive point of view. A lot of the issues in the NHS today stem from PFI which was introduced by Blair. This was a policy designed to make the running of the NHS more sustainable. Again, as far back as the last Labour government, the sustainability of the system was a concern. The Tories have increased funding YoY too so they haven’t cynically cut the budget to artificially create a crisis. If that’s the goal, it’s a a strange way to achieve it.

In our model, the government is responsible for; building the hospitals, maintaining them, purchasing the equipment for the hospitals, paying the staff and that’s before we care for any patients. It’s a massive burden and with the demographic changes and sudden population growth, it’s not a positive long term prospectus.

Therefore, is it a surprise that; the infrastructure is dated, we have less equipment than our developed economy counterparts, the staff is underpaid and understaffed and the waiting lists long?

 

[fernandopartridge]

She's incredibly disingenuous, given she was elected on and campaigned for the 2019 manifesto.

 

[fernandopartridge]

That’s a rather naive point of view. A lot of the issues in the NHS today stem from PFI which was introduced by Blair. This was a policy designed to make the running of the NHS more sustainable. Again, as far back as the last Labour government, the sustainability of the system was a concern. The Tories have increased funding YoY too so they haven’t cynically cut the budget to artificially create a crisis. If that’s the goal, it’s a a strange way to achieve it.

In our model, the government is responsible for; building the hospitals, maintaining them, purchasing the equipment for the hospitals, paying the staff and that’s before we care for any patients. It’s a massive burden and with the demographic changes and sudden population growth, it’s not a positive long term prospectus.

Therefore, is it a surprise that; the infrastructure is dated, we have less equipment than our developed economy counterparts, the staff is underpaid and understaffed and the waiting lists long?

PFI had nothing to do with the sustainability of the NHS. It was solely down to the treasury avoiding having large scale capital expenditure on its balance sheet. It created a much bigger problem for the NHS than funding new hospital buildings in a more traditional way. It was started by John Major's government.

 

[Philosoraptor]

I wonder how low the Labour turnout will be, and how this will affect everything.

Honest question!

She's incredibly disingenuous, given she was elected on and campaigned for the 2019 manifesto.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I wonder how low the Labour turnout will be, and how this will affect everything.

Honest question!

Well I'd be amazed if people weren't desperate for the opportunity to remove the current lot. Over confidence that that will happen without needing to bother is the only enemy given the polls.

 

[David O'Day]

Councillor Dan Nelson has a history of being the worst of the worst

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not really seen any door knocking from any of the parties around here, which is a little surprising given how marginal the seat was in 2019.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

PFI had nothing to do with the sustainability of the NHS. It was solely down to the treasury avoiding having large scale capital expenditure on its balance sheet. It created a much bigger problem for the NHS than funding new hospital buildings in a more traditional way. It was started by John Major's government.

I’m sorry Fern, but first those two sentences contradict one another.

We agree that PFI has been a failure, that isn’t the point. It’s the rationale behind the policy is because the traditional funding method is expensive and doesn’t look good on the country’s balance sheet.

 

[Grendel]

The Greens should be looking at a similar number of seats to Reform and at least have a sitting MP in the current Parliament. Might well be good for a million plus votes-it’s not irrelevant to have them there.

Seriously considering a vote for them here anyway

Reform do have a sitting Mp in parliament

 

[shmmeee]

I’m sorry Fern, but first those two sentences contradict one another.

We agree that PFI has been a failure, that isn’t the point. It’s the rationale behind the policy is because the traditional funding method is expensive and doesn’t look good on the country’s balance sheet.

In what way is it more expensive to borrow?

 

[wingy]

In what way is it more expensive to borrow?

Hard interest as opposed to fluctuating?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

How come this is acceptable when you have a posh accent...?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

In what way is it more expensive to borrow?

I don't agree with Fern's general economics, but what it is safe to say is it's cheaper for government to borrow, than it is for government to pay for a private enterprise to borrow!

It's also fair to say that part of the reason for PFI is that people do indeed want something for nothing nowadays - they want better health care, but they don't want to be the ones paying for it in any way. That, of course, is absolutely nothing to do with it being a national service overseen by government - the attempt to deflect from its purpose is shocking to me, frankly.

And every organisation, every, can improve by changing certain things, that applies to both private and public. To use it as an excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater is however a bit brain dead in my eyes.

 

[shmmeee]

I don't agree with Fern's general economics, but what it is safe to say is it's cheaper for government to borrow, than it is for government to pay for a private enterprise to borrow!

It's also fair to say that part of the reason for PFI is that people do indeed want something for nothing nowadays - they want better health care, but they don't want to be the ones paying for it in any way. That, of course, is absolutely nothing to do with it being a national service overseen by government - the attempt to deflect from its purpose is shocking to me, frankly.

And every organisation, every, can improve by changing certain things, that applies to both private and public. To use it as an excuse to throw the baby out with the bathwater is however a bit brain dead in my eyes.

It’s capital expenditure though. I don’t see an issue with borrowing for building tbh. Pays back in productivity. PFI is significantly more expensive. It’s was just an accounting fix to please the likes of Macca who get pearl clutchy about government borrowing.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

It’s capital expenditure though. I don’t see an issue with borrowing for building tbh. Pays back in productivity. PFI is significantly more expensive. It’s was just an accounting fix to please the likes of Macca who get pearl clutchy about government borrowing.

I don't disagree as we've paid for it anyway, and then some.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

In what way is it more expensive to borrow?

Use of PFI, at the time, was to alleviate the burden of government actually funding projects. The government doesn’t have the cash it’ll borrow from the bond markets and so on.

PFI transfers the risk to the private sector and alleviates the need for government to raise capital. That was the blue sky thinking that dictated policy under New Labour.

What actually happened was that PFI cost the taxpayer the cost of the project, interests and sometimes, maintenance fees too. In practice, all PFI did was transfer the increasing costs to future taxpayers. An accounting gimmick.

The rationale from the New Labour years was simple: the costs needed to spruce up public services was costly and probably unpopular if the trade off was New Labour raising the revenues through traditional government levers i.e. taxation. Well meaning policies can nonetheless have bad outcomes.

 

[PVA]

Tories to get less than 50 seats has shortened from 9/1 to 7/2 since Sunak's D Day gaffe.

Absolutely wonderful.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Tories to get less than 50 seats has shortened from 9/1 to 7/2 since Sunak's D Day gaffe.

Absolutely wonderful.

It’s not good for democracy imo. Even in 2019 I felt Labour getting trounced as they did wasn’t good.

Instinctively, I think governments with big majorities tend to squander their time in government.

 

[SIR ERNIE]

Every chance that 7/2 will shorten further.
Even as someone who sits firmly to the right of centre, I can't imagine why anyone would vote for them.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Every chance that 7/2 will shorten further.
Even as someone who sits firmly to the right of centre, I can't imagine why anyone would vote for them.

I wouldn’t describe my views as centre-left but there are some specific policies that could swing my vote to Labour. Especially around plans to forgive student finance - a purely selfish policy priority I’ll admit.

 

[PVA]

It’s not good for democracy imo. Even in 2019 I felt Labour getting trounced as they did wasn’t good.

Instinctively, I think governments with big majorities tend to squander their time in government.

The last 14 years (mostly the last 5 tbf) haven't been good for democracy. Fuck 'em.

 

[clint van damme]

Tories to get less than 50 seats has shortened from 9/1 to 7/2 since Sunak's D Day gaffe.

Absolutely wonderful.

As bad as Sunaks gaffe was there's a lot of water under the bridge between now and July, less than 50 would be something else but I can't see it happening.

 

[chiefdave]

Every chance that 7/2 will shorten further.
Even as someone who sits firmly to the right of centre, I can't imagine why anyone would vote for them.

I'm surprised there's as many people as there is who will still vote for them. The country has gone to shit and there's not an argument they can put up that stands up to the slightest bit of scrutiny that they aren't to blame.