Do you want to discuss boring politics? (231 Viewers)

[shmmeee]

Astounding work to write this on a ballot with the literal Workers Party and Communist League on.

 

---

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Was everything you wanted in Labour’s manifesto?

…no?

 

[shmmeee]

Crikey. A voting system where 14% of the vote gets 5 seats suddenly sounds very sensible indeed.

It’s been doing it to the Lib Dem’s and Greens for ages, not to mention the SDP. It’s literally the point of the system: keep the fringes on the fringe and force moderation.

Also people are calling for PR, the system that in NL just gave Geert Wilders power on 23% of the vote.

In a four or five party system 34% is the sort of vote that gives you power in any system. Are people really saying the want the Lib Dem’s or Reform as permanent king makers? And that would be more democratic?

 

[MalcSB]

It’s been doing it to the Lib Dem’s and Greens for ages, not to mention the SDP. It’s literally the point of the system: keep the fringes on the fringe and force moderation.

Also people are calling for PR, the system that in NL just gave Geert Wilders power on 23% of the vote.

In a four or five party system 34% is the sort of vote that gives you power in any system. Are people really saying the want the Lib Dem’s or Reform as permanent king makers? And that would be more democratic?

I don’t see how the current system forces moderation, it allows switches from left to right.

PR would be more democratic in that the views of a greater proportion of the population would be represented in decision making by those in the position to make the decisions. The fact that you, or I, don’t agree with the views of some of those who would be in that position isn’t a reason not to do it.

 

[torchomatic]

Be interesting to see who the Tories choose as their next leader. Personally, as a Labour supporter I'd like to see someone like Patel or Braverman. They would be much easier to label as a extremist nutter; they can't help themselves. Wouldn't be long before they'd say something controversial.

As an aside, and also being a democrat, I'd like to see a good opposition, so someone like Tom Tugendhat would be ideal.

If they do go down the right-wing nutter route then people will look to Ed Davey to provide the opposition the country needs.

How long will it be before the first Tory defects to Reform?

 

[ovduk78]

I assume all these Reform candidates/voters have always been in favour of PR especially when they were voting for the Lib Dems

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

The first 218 didn’t make any difference though?

It’s a continuation of the previous government’s policy where 218 were bailed. What would you have done differently?

I'm not interested in what the Tories did. Everyone knows their reign was a failure on migration and a big part of what them got voted out. If we're going to carry on like this, it's going to be a very quick 5 years for Labour. Certainly what they've been doing in the first two days they've got in is not going to be popular with many people in the real world, other than those that claim to pretend to care about humanitarian reasons as a front for really wanting open borders.

You can't sit there for 14 years swiping at the government every day, only for a new one to come in, do the same thing or worse, and then start blaming the old one with 'oh but look at them' within 48 hours. It's very silly.

 

[SBAndy]

I'm not interested in what the Tories did. Everyone knows their reign was a failure on migration and a big part of what them got voted out. If we're going to carry on like this, it's going to be a very quick 5 years for Labour. Certainly what they've been doing in the first two days they've got in is not going to be popular with many people in the real world, other than those that claim to pretend to care about humanitarian reasons as a front for really wanting open borders.

You can't sit there for 14 years swiping at the government every day, only for a new one to come in, do the same thing or worse, and then start blaming the old one with 'oh but look at them' within 48 hours. It's very silly.

Almost as silly as making a snap judgement on their performance in government after 48 hours!

Besides, setting the Rwanda stuff aside, I would expect a lot of their early stuff is being well-received by the general public.

 

[Sick Boy]

I'm not interested in what the Tories did. Everyone knows their reign was a failure on migration and a big part of what them got voted out. If we're going to carry on like this, it's going to be a very quick 5 years for Labour. Certainly what they've been doing in the first two days they've got in is not going to be popular with many people in the real world, other than those that claim to pretend to care about humanitarian reasons as a front for really wanting open borders.

You can't sit there for 14 years swiping at the government every day, only for a new one to come in, do the same thing or worse, and then start blaming the old one with 'oh but look at them' within 48 hours. It's very silly.

What would you have done then?

 

[MalcSB]

Almost as silly as making a snap judgement on their performance in government after 48 hours!

Besides, setting the Rwanda stuff aside, I would expect a lot of their early stuff is being well-received by the general public.

Suggesting convicted criminals only serve a quarter of their sentences?
Why not just get the judges to say those found guilty have been very naughty boys and / or girls and let them go with a “woe betide you if I see you here again”.

 

[fatso]

Suggesting convicted criminals only serve a quarter of their sentences?
Why not just get the judges to say those found guilty have been very naughty boys and / or girls and let them go with a “woe betide you if I see you here again”.

Exactly. It's easier to let convicted criminals out than to come up with a solution to the overcrowded prisons.

Why not just build more prisons? And invest in rehabilitation to cut down on re-offending rather than locking people up for 23 hours a day.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Suggesting convicted criminals only serve a quarter of their sentences?
Why not just get the judges to say those found guilty have been very naughty boys and / or girls and let them go with a “woe betide you if I see you here again”.

tbf that's where James Timpson (Tory leaning I think) is an interesting appointment though isn't it, as he's actually walked the walk in how to rehabilitate criminals and stop them reoffending.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Suggesting convicted criminals only serve a quarter of their sentences?
Why not just get the judges to say those found guilty have been very naughty boys and / or girls and let them go with a “woe betide you if I see you here again”.

The point is that the the evidence does not demonstrate that it's a deterrent from offending or reoffending. There is no benefit in jailing them to the wider public.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Not sure bailing people waiting to be deported is going to A) Do anything other than encourage more crossings and B) Win more votes next time round.

I'm not suggesting Rwanda is the answer, but this is a dangerous start from Starmer.

Last two migrants bound for Rwanda to be bailed, home secretary says

New Prime Minister Keir Starmer confirms the scheme is now "dead and buried".

www.bbc.co.uk

Which part rishi releasing 218 or keir looking to release 2

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

Which part rishi releasing 218 or keir looking to release 2

What would you have done then?

I don't think you guys are getting it. Pete - you've literally just proved my point.

lf this is what we can expect, there's going to be 5 years of whataboutary and pointing the finger at a government no longer in power, followed by Labour being voted out and a 'how on earth did we lose again' going around.

The irony of Torchomatic laughing at my post when the sneering of people like him diminishing people's concerns was a massive part of the reason we had brexit. I'm also not a Tory, but the label that gets planted on someone when they challenge the left is hilarious. Do any of you guys live in the real world? I laugh again because there's people on here criticising Brits abroad, when many of you haven't left your houses, let alone the west midlands in years.

 

[fatso]

The point is that the the evidence does not demonstrate that it's a deterrent from offending or reoffending. There is no benefit in jailing them to the wider public.

Out of interest, what would you suggest then?

 

[clint van damme]

I'm not interested in what the Tories did. Everyone knows their reign was a failure on migration and a big part of what them got voted out. If we're going to carry on like this, it's going to be a very quick 5 years for Labour. Certainly what they've been doing in the first two days they've got in is not going to be popular with many people in the real world, other than those that claim to pretend to care about humanitarian reasons as a front for really wanting open borders.

You can't sit there for 14 years swiping at the government every day, only for a new one to come in, do the same thing or worse, and then start blaming the old one with 'oh but look at them' within 48 hours. It's very silly.

But we don't know what Labour are going to do yet so you can't really say they're failing just yet.
They've knocked Rwanda on the head, (which was an expensive flop in my opinion), but that's irrelevant, let's see what they come up with and judge them on that.

 

[PVA]

I don't think you guys are getting it. Pete - you've literally just proved my point.

lf this is what we can expect, there's going to be 5 years of whataboutary and pointing the finger at a government no longer in power, followed by Labour being voted out and a 'how on earth did we lose again' going around.

I'm not sure what the issue is.

They aren't saying they want open borders. They aren't saying they're not going to do anything about boat crossings.

They've just said the Rwanda scheme is shit and a waste of money (it is).

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What a sad state of affairs that two people (of which we know nothing?) is a talking point.

 

[chiefdave]

Suggesting convicted criminals only serve a quarter of their sentences?
Why not just get the judges to say those found guilty have been very naughty boys and / or girls and let them go with a “woe betide you if I see you here again”.

There was a documentary on BBC (I think) a few months ago about systems in other countries. What was incredibly obvious from that was that countries that had lower sentences and concentrated on rehabilitation rather than punishment had much lower re-offending rates

Guess it depends what you want out of the system. Do you want to lock people up at great expense only to have them come out and pick up where they left off or o you want a system that allows those people to be successfully re-integrated into society

Of course that doesn't apply to all. I doubt anyone is suggesting we let murders & rapists out after a few months of their sentence

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

But we don't know what Labour are going to do yet so you can't really say they're failing just yet.
They've knocked Rwanda on the head, (which was an expensive flop in my opinion), but that's irrelevant, let's see what they come up with and judge them on that.

Yes I agree. I was never a fan of the Rwanda thing, but there needs to be a better solution. Ideally a processing centre in France as a starting point. My issue is with people straight away pointing at the last government because they don't have it in them to be honest. We all know the Tories are shit, but we have a fresh start now, and that's who we need to hold to account. I'm not a fan of Starmer either but I'm also prepared to get behind him for the good of the country. There's so many hypocrits it does my head in, especially when they pretend to be compassionate and caring human being that are actually the first ones to hand out vitriol.

 

[chiefdave]

lf this is what we can expect, there's going to be 5 years of whataboutary and pointing the finger at a government no longer in power

We've had 14 years of Conservatives blaming Labour for everything. 48 hours into a Labour government and people are complaining they haven't sorted everything and saying they can't blame the previous government

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

What a sad state of affairs that two people is a talking point.

It isn't. You're missing the point on purpose. Then again, that's the expectation from you. At least you can pretend to be a nice person, but we won't forget the abuse you handed out to people in the past, paticularly those who had a difference of opinion to you during the pandemic.

 

[Earlsdon_Skyblue1]

We've had 14 years of Conservatives blaming Labour for everything. 48 hours into a Labour government and people are complaining they haven't sorted everything and saying they can't blame the previous government

Why so defensive? No one is blaming Labour for everything. If the Tories are fair game for what they did, Labour should be the same for whatever they do going forwards. Or does it only work one way?

 

[fernandopartridge]

Out of interest, what would you suggest then?

Rehabilitation over punishment. This is obviously for less serious crime. You have to understand and address if you can, the underlying reasons behind crime. Punishment does not do any of those things.

 

[chiefdave]

Why so defensive? No one is blaming Labour for everything. If the Tories are fair game for what they did, Labour should be the same for whatever they do going forwards. Or does it only work one way?

personally I feel that given the state of the country its fair to give them more than two days before people start declaring things aren't working. even Blair is sticking his oar in which hopefully isn't a sign of what we're going to have for the next 5 years

 

[chiefdave]

Out of interest, what would you suggest then?

if you want to impact crime you need to tackle the causes of crime. if you want to stop people coming out of prisons reoffending you look to other countries who do that far more successfully than us and study what they are doing differently.

 

[clint van damme]

Yes I agree. I was never a fan of the Rwanda thing, but there needs to be a better solution. Ideally a processing centre in France as a starting point. My issue is with people straight away pointing at the last government because they don't have it in them to be honest. We all know the Tories are shit, but we have a fresh start now, and that's who we need to hold to account. I'm not a fan of Starmer either but I'm also prepared to get behind him for the good of the country. There's so many hypocrits it does my head in, especially when they pretend to be compassionate and caring human being that are actually the first ones to hand out vitriol.

That's fair enough.
Not a Starmer fan either, (or most of the cabinet!), but I'll give them a chance because there's a lot to sort out and hope they get it right and a few on here can say I told you so because this country needs a lift.

 

[Sick Boy]

I don't think you guys are getting it. Pete - you've literally just proved my point.

lf this is what we can expect, there's going to be 5 years of whataboutary and pointing the finger at a government no longer in power, followed by Labour being voted out and a 'how on earth did we lose again' going around.

The irony of Torchomatic laughing at my post when the sneering of people like him diminishing people's concerns was a massive part of the reason we had brexit. I'm also not a Tory, but the label that gets planted on someone when they challenge the left is hilarious. Do any of you guys live in the real world? I laugh again because there's people on here criticising Brits abroad, when many of you haven't left your houses, let alone the west midlands in years.

All I’ve asked if what you’d have done? How about, what would you have liked them to have done?

I agree that there isn’t likely going to be a huge shift from Starmer compared to the previous government, BTW.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

It’s been doing it to the Lib Dem’s and Greens for ages, not to mention the SDP. It’s literally the point of the system: keep the fringes on the fringe and force moderation.

Also people are calling for PR, the system that in NL just gave Geert Wilders power on 23% of the vote.

In a four or five party system 34% is the sort of vote that gives you power in any system. Are people really saying the want the Lib Dem’s or Reform as permanent king makers? And that would be more democratic?

Yes

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

I don't think you guys are getting it. Pete - you've literally just proved my point.

lf this is what we can expect, there's going to be 5 years of whataboutary and pointing the finger at a government no longer in power, followed by Labour being voted out and a 'how on earth did we lose again' going around.

The irony of Torchomatic laughing at my post when the sneering of people like him diminishing people's concerns was a massive part of the reason we had brexit. I'm also not a Tory, but the label that gets planted on someone when they challenge the left is hilarious. Do any of you guys live in the real world? I laugh again because there's people on here criticising Brits abroad, when many of you haven't left your houses, let alone the west midlands in years.

Ah ok I understand your challenge to me
I think this was in line with the decision already taken

 

[clint van damme]

Looks like Badenoch could be in trouble.
some issue relating to postal votes in her constituency. Could be a rerun.

 

[chiefdave]

Looks like Badenoch could be in trouble.
some issue relating to postal votes in her constituency. Could be a rerun.

wasn't there an issue with the Reform candidate and they stop campaigning as it was too late to replace them? A rerun with a new reform candidate and Labour campaigning hard and she could be in trouble

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Looks like Badenoch could be in trouble.
some issue relating to postal votes in her constituency. Could be a rerun.

tbf it looks like it's not her fault (and it's not often you can say that about her!)

 

[fatso]

if you want to impact crime you need to tackle the causes of crime. if you want to stop people coming out of prisons reoffending you look to other countries who do that far more successfully than us and study what they are doing differently.

There's a reason why me, you and everyone else on here isn't in prison, it's because we have a moral compass that keeps us on the (relatively) straight and narrow, regardless of the trauma life has thrown at us.
We haven't needed the state to step in and make our problems easier so we don't break the law.

Take the well publicised tragic case of the young boy who's life was taken in Cov recently by the hit and run driver, what could the government do to stop the absolute scum bag driver from being so wilfully crazy behind the wheel.

Under the new proposals, when he's caught and convicted, he could find himself only serving 25% of his sentence.

I fear the new government will care far more for the feelings of the perpetrators than the victims.

And this isn't a political dig at Labour, as the prisons don't appear to have improved any over the last 14 years under the Tory party.