Southgate (41 Viewers)

[Nuskyblue]

Was listening to talksport earlier and a guy suggested Sean Dyche should get the job

Genuinely wouldn't be opposed.

 

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[thekidfromstrettoncamp]

Was listening to talksport earlier and a guy suggested Sean Dyche should get the job

 

[Grendel]

You are more likely to get good results by playing good football, no? I didn't suggest we carbon copy the tactics of those teams, just use the principle of playing more positively, at higher tempo, and with some vague attacking intent. England played extremely negative football, generating a pathetic xG and only keeping two clean sheets from seven anyway.

You might get further in a tournament despite playing like that, but you will never win one-and that must ultimately be our ambition. I don't accept that England are destined never to win a tournament again as some claim.

Not really Greece won the euros with the most awful football imaginable. Italy in 94 played for penalties and won. Denmark in the euros were shite when they won - they did not even qualify

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Not really Greece won the euros with the most awful football imaginable. Italy in 94 played for penalties and won. Denmark in the euros were shite when they won - they did not even qualify

Spain 2010 were dull as dishwater too. Narrowly got out their group after losing the first game, too...

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The old fashioned eye test. The performances were dreadful, the xG worse than some sides who exited at the group stage, and even this fabled team of 2022 committed a footballing atrocity against the US.

You have written about heroic failures of the past. All I have seen in the Southgate era is a couple more of those, just at later stages than usual.

We drew against the USA in a game that guaranteed we qualified for the next round. Again, which is all that matters in tournament football. I don’t think any team won all their group games in Qatar and likewise, only Spain this tournament.

In Qatar, we had an xG in the top 5 of teams and comparable stats to eventual finalist France and Argentina. Our xG in 2024, was worryingly low and for 2026 we need to find ways to create more chances.

Ultimately, we didn’t win the tournaments so it’s fair to say we failed but to call Southgate a failure is wrong. The atmosphere around the team is better, turned some psychological corners (penalties and beating major teams in KO rounds) and we’ve gotten deeper into tournaments. All of these things add up to improving our tournament mentality as a nation.

I’ve consistently said that Southgate has laid some great foundations for his successor to build upon and hopefully, we will win a trophy.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Not really Greece won the euros with the most awful football imaginable. Italy in 94 played for penalties and won. Denmark in the euros were shite when they won - they did not even qualify

You can add; France in 1998, Italy in 2006, Spain in 2010, Portugal in 2016, France in 2018 and Argentina in 2022 all had pretty uninspiring moments in the tournament before going into winning the tournament. All these teams knew how win ugly because tournament football is just about winning the match at hand by hook or crook.

For all the love in Austria got for their exciting attacking, high pressing football… they got knocked out by underdogs Turkey.

Even Spain this tournament, they were more pragmatic than previous Spain teams. Good in possession as you’d expect, but they did a lot of damage on the counter. We need to find that blend and think we’re close to cracking it.

 

[Evo1883]

Not really Greece won the euros with the most awful football imaginable. Italy in 94 played for penalties and won. Denmark in the euros were shite when they won - they did not even qualify

Italy won what ?

You realise sometimes teams can just get lucky in tournaments ?

Denmark had a tough run really but won 2 rounds on penalties after drawing 2-2 in both , beat the Dutch, French and drew with England

They beat Germany 2-0 in the final

Greece by definition got very lucky , played extremely defensive and took limited chances , beat a great French team and a very good Portugal team .

They were never the best sides in Europe

Mad Things happen , same as any cup competition

 

[Evo1883]

You can add; France in 1998, Italy in 2006, Spain in 2010, Portugal in 2016, France in 2018 and Argentina in 2022 all had pretty uninspiring moments in the tournament before going into winning the tournament. All these teams knew how win ugly because tournament football is just about winning the match at hand by hook or crook.

For all the love in Austria got for their exciting attacking, high pressing football… they got knocked out by underdogs Turkey.

Even Spain this tournament, they were more pragmatic than previous Spain teams. Good in possession as you’d expect, but they did a lot of damage on the counter. We need to find that blend and think we’re close to cracking it.

France in 2018 beat Croatia who beat England, Belgium who beat England twice , Uruguay and Argentina on their way to winning the world cup scoring 14 goals in 7 games

France in 1998 were a tremendous team not sure why you've included them

Spain in 2010 were a superb team just knocked the ball around teams until they died a slow death , never struggled really conceding 1 goal the entire tournament

I don't think people expect every game by every team to be amazing , obviously in some matches you will just win or get through by any means .. but England were genuinley poor , that's the difference , we never created , we never looked coherent and we never looked like a team .. besides 45 solid minutes against Spain and 45 against Holland across 7 matches

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Not really Greece won the euros with the most awful football imaginable. Italy in 94 played for penalties and won. Denmark in the euros were shite when they won - they did not even qualify

And for those few examples there are many more that were deservedly won by the sides playing better football. Italy lost the ‘94 final too?

Unless you are seriously arguing that our blueprint should be to play worse because of some occasions where a team got away with it?

 

[Evo1883]

Liverpool lost 2 matches on route to winning the champions league in 2019 ..

They still played good football and looked a good side .

Losing 1 match in the groups or drawing 1 match doesn't mean you limped through a campaign

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

France in 2018 beat Croatia who beat England, Belgium who beat England twice , Uruguay and Argentina on their way to winning the world cup scoring 14 goals in 7 games

France in 1998 were a tremendous team not sure why you've included them

Revisit those games and how they played. They went 1-0 down v Australia, only beat Peru 1-0 and drew 0-0 with Denmark - they did not look like they were going to win it all.

In every KO game, bar Uruguay, they did not have a game with more than 40% possession. Against Argentina and Uruguay they won 4-3 with 4 shots on target and 2-0 with 2 shots on target respectively. In the final, they scored 4 goals with 6 shots on target. In short, they were a very effective team but not easy on the eye.

Deschamps is the man Southgate tried to imitate with his England teams. They defend extremely well and hit teams on the counter and rely on set-pieces. They had the foresight to build the team around Mbappe only, even at the expense of Benzema - something for the next England manager to ponder on.

As for 1998, going into the tournament l’equipe was pillorying the manager and his style of play.

 

[Evo1883]

Revisit those games and how they played. They went 1-0 down v Australia, only beat Peru 1-0 and drew 0-0 with Denmark - they did not look like they were going to win it all.

In every KO game, bar Uruguay, they did not have a game with more than 40% possession. Against Argentina and Uruguay they won 4-3 with 4 shots on target and 2-0 with 2 shots on target respectively. In the final, they scored 4 goals with 6 shots on target. In short, they were a very effective team but not easy on the eye.

Deschamps is the man Southgate tried to imitate with his England teams. They defend extremely well and hit teams on the counter and rely on set-pieces. They had the foresight to build the team around Mbappe only, even at the expense of Benzema - something for the next England manager to ponder on.

As for 1998, going into the tournament l’equipe was pillorying the manager and his style of play.

They went 1 nil up against Australia, and deserved to win the game , they looked like a coherent team throughout .

As for France in 1998 , they were a fucking tremendous team , one of the best international sides of all time

 

[skybluecam]

With the quality we have the team should scare people.

When I think about us playing Spain, Germany, France, Argentina etc. I am worried

I don't think any big nation has been particularly worried about playing us in recent years tbh

 

[Evo1883]

France between start of 1997 and the start of 2001 lost 4 matches in 4 years they were a great side

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

And for those few examples there are many more that were deservedly won by the sides playing better football. Unless you are seriously arguing that our blueprint should be to play worse because of some occasions where a team got away with it?

The teams I added to the list probably show that teams need to grind out results rather than this idealised total football approach to winning tournaments.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

As for 1998, going into the tournament l’equipe was pillorying the manager and his style of play.

Got a lucky group, crept past Paraguay, needed penalties to beat Italy... it was only the final where they really kicked into gear, and wasn't that the game where Ronaldo played after fitting and the entire Brazil team went into shellshock as a result.

 

[Evo1883]

Got a lucky group, crept past Paraguay, needed penalties to beat Italy... it was only the final where they really kicked into gear, and wasn't that the game where Ronaldo played after fitting and the entire Brazil team went into shellshock as a result.

Imagine making out beating Italy on penalties is some kind of shame in 1998 this forum man

They scored 9 goals in the group stage

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Imagine making out beating Italy on penalties is some kind of shame in 1998 this forum man

They scored 9 goals in the group stage

Powerhouses of Saudi Arabia, yeah.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Got a lucky group, crept past Paraguay, needed penalties to beat Italy... it was only the final where they really kicked into gear, and wasn't that the game where Ronaldo played after fitting and the entire Brazil team went into shellshock as a result.

… It’s only luck when it’s an achievement involving Southgate. I’ll let you and @Evo1883 battle this one out.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

… It’s only luck when it’s an achievement involving Southgate. I’ll let you and @Evo1883 battle this one out.

I'm giving up, I need to go to bed and I think Evo's coming up to his six year annversary on this argument!

 

[Evo1883]

Powerhouses of Saudi Arabia, yeah.

They beat them 4 nil ya plumb

 

[Deleted member 5849]

They beat them 4 nil ya plumb

Yeah, the mighty mighty Saudi Arabia, the team who struck fear into hearts the world over.

You'd almost think I said they had a lucky group, ya apricot.

 

[Evo1883]

Yeah, the mighty mighty Saudi Arabia, the team who struck fear into hearts the world over.

You'd almost think I said they had a lucky group, ya apricot.

But they were comfortably the worlds best team by mid 1998, they were superb and won the euros 2 years later , what's the argument that they limped to the trophy because they beat a very good Italy on penalties

Weird take I must say

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

With the quality we have the team should scare people.

When I think about us playing Spain, Germany, France, Argentina etc. I am worried

I don't think any big nation has been particularly worried about playing us in recent years tbh

We do, Spain tweaked their tactics against us. They typically bait teams with their pressing and didn’t do this so much against us compared to their usual games. In fact, Palmer’s goal came about when we beat their press.

I do agree that this tournament, we didn’t get the right mix and the next manager needs to figure out what combinations work best for us.

I could see Carsley or Potter doing some really interesting things with the team. Carsley nominally played a 4-4-2 that was shapeless and every players could fill in everywhere.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

The teams I added to the list probably show that teams need to grind out results rather than this idealised total football approach to winning tournaments.

There is somewhere in between Gareth telling the lads that Pickford wants it and playing the gung ho balls to the wall gegenpress every game. I don’t think we’ll ever agree on Southgate’s football but we do seem to agree on the future direction of the national side so let’s just focus on that.

 

[Evo1883]

… It’s only luck when it’s an achievement involving Southgate. I’ll let you and @Evo1883 battle this one out.

Southgate won nothing , all the teams you mentioned did

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Southgate won nothing , all the teams you mentioned did

You said Southgate should go even if we did win the Euros…

As the older statesman, please remind me how many semi finals and finals you got to see England play in before Southgate came in?

 

[Evo1883]

You said Southgate should go even if we did win the Euros…

As the older statesman, please remind me how many semi finals and finals you got to see England play in before Southgate came in?

I have been through this so many times it's boring the life out of me ..my god

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I have been through this so many times it's boring the life out of me ..my god

You’re still wrong. If I used your logic, I can justify every KO lose under Southgate:

2018 - Croatia had a ballon d’or winner and their midfield and arguably defence was better than in their team, battered Argentina in the groups. On top of this, our worst WC squad since 1994.

2020 - Italy were the best team in that tournament with a much better defence, beat all the best teams to get to the final and we were marginal favourites because we were the home team.

2022 - France were defending champions and favourites for the match, better team man for man too.

2024 - Spain were favourites and won every game leading up to us.

I don’t happen to believe all of this, but this is what you do in explaining away England’s failures in the past. Ultimately, we made our own luck by winning our groups, something last England teams failed to do even when the World Cup format was 32 teams.

I’m aware of Southgate’s flaws but he’s still the best England manager in both our lifetimes, unless you were around for Sir Alf Ramsey. There’s no debate to be had of it.

 

[Evo1883]

You’re still wrong. If I used your logic, I can justify every KO lose under Southgate:

2018 - Croatia had a ballon d’or winner and their midfield and arguably defence was better than in their team, battered Argentina in the groups. On top of this, our worst WC squad since 1994.

2020 - Italy were the best team in that tournament with a much better defence, beat all the best teams to get to the final and we were marginal favourites because we were the home team.

2022 - France were defending champions and favourites for the match, better team man for man too.

2024 - Spain were favourites and won every game leading up to us.

I don’t happen to believe all of this, but this is what you do in explaining away England’s failures in the past. Ultimately, we made our own luck by winning our groups, something last England teams failed to do even when the World Cup format was 32 teams.

I’m aware of Southgate’s flaws but he’s still the best England manager in both our lifetimes, unless you were around for Sir Alf Ramsey. There’s no debate to be had of it.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

There's a massive debate to be had , for starters football isnt the same today and the competition at the top of international football is nowhere near as strong .

Southgate tactically cost us every time , and he also took us backwards over the last 2 years .. something that is quite hard to do considering the player pool we have

Did Sven not cost us tactically in any of the KO games he lost? Winning our groups in 2002 and 2004 would’ve helped secure a ‘lucky’ draws. Likewise with Capello in 2010 - winning our group and we avoid all the top teams.

How did he tactically cost against Spain? We made a defensive error right after the break and ironically we were in the ropes because we were chasing a goal. After we scored, the players froze and went away from their tactical instructions. The same was true earlier in the tournament when Southgate came out and said he wanted us to keep the ball more and press higher.

Likewise in 2020, we lost on penalties where tactics don’t really come into it. Maybe we go 2-0 if we ‘went for it’ perhaps we get caught on the counter and draw 1-1 or lose 2-1 either way. If it was that simple any manager would’ve obviously just attacked more.

Even so, this argument you make about the tournaments being weaker doesn’t really work. Our team isn’t that much better than the competition so if it’s weaker across the board, it applies to us too. So it’s no more difficult to win a World Cup now, compared to say, 1990. The big difference is that the developing football nations are catching up to the established powers due to massive investment from FIFA and elsewhere. The overall quality has increased, not decreased.

The extended Euros format has diluted the competition, but some dross teams have won the tournament before - Greece and Denmark for starts. In short, there’s just no reason why England couldn’t have made more major semi-finals and finals before Southgate came along.

In my view, you’re making these arguments because you just can’t accept that a manager you loathe is still the best manager you’ve seen manage England.

PS. Notice I’m not saying that Southgate is a tactical genius - I’m not. I’ve said elsewhere he’s done all the hard work for his successor to come in and take us to the next level.

 

[Evo1883]

Did Sven not cost us tactically in any of the KO games he lost? Winning our groups in 2002 and 2004 would’ve helped secure a ‘lucky’ draws. Likewise with Capello in 2010 - winning our group and we avoid all the top teams.

How did he tactically cost against Spain? We made a defensive error right after the break and ironically we were in the ropes because we were chasing a goal. After we scored, the players froze and went away from their tactical instructions. The same was true earlier in the tournament when Southgate came out and said he wanted us to keep the ball more and press higher.

Likewise in 2020, we lost on penalties where tactics don’t really come into it. Maybe we go 2-0 if we ‘went for it’ perhaps we get caught on the counter and draw 1-1 or lose 2-1 either way. If it was that simple any manager would’ve obviously just attacked more.

Even so, this argument you make about the tournaments being weaker doesn’t really work. Our team isn’t that much better than the competition so if it’s weaker across the board, it applies to us too. So it’s no more difficult to win a World Cup now, compared to say, 1990. The big difference is that the developing football nations are catching up to the established powers due to massive investment from FIFA and elsewhere. The overall quality has increased, not decreased.

The extended Euros format has diluted the competition, but some dross teams have won the tournament before - Greece and Denmark for starts. In short, there’s just no reason why England couldn’t have made more major semi-finals and finals before Southgate came along.

In my view, you’re making these arguments because you just can’t accept that a manager you loathe is still the best manager you’ve seen manage England.

PS. Notice I’m not saying that Southgate is a tactical genius - I’m not. I’ve said elsewhere he’s done all the hard work for his successor to come in and take us to the next level.

He certainly isn't the best England manager I've seen ,some of the worst football I've ever watched England play is under Southgate .

Diabolical

I'd have backed even you to take England to atleast the quarters / semi in this tournament

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

He certainly isn't the best England manager I've seen ,some of the worst football I've ever watched England play is under Southgate .

Diabolical

I'd have backed even you to take England to atleast the quarters / semi in this tournament

Who is the best England manager you’ve seen then?

 

[Evo1883]

@Mucca Mad Boys Gareth southgate is England's 2nd best manager by tournament results .

Sure

But it's been like watching paint dry

Glad it's over , I truly believe somebody with a bit more tactical nous would have took us to atleast 1 euro and probably a nations league in 2019

We've been better to watch in the past and we've been unlucky in tournaments , Beckham sending off 98 , rooney 06 and campbells dissollowed goal , Ronaldinho flukey goal 2002

Sure under Roy, mclaren and capello it was shite and graham Taylor years before

You and some think he's great, I genuinely don't .. that's that

 

[Nick]

You look at the state of the team and their performances at major tournaments, and where he left it… it’s in a far better place.

Highest win %, best tournament performances, most goals per game at a World Cup, first manager to beat Germany (and Netherlands) in a KO game since 1966.

He didn’t win a trophy but if that’s the only benchmark for success, then you just can’t appreciate nuance.

It depends how much you want to pick out random stats to claim "success".