Southgate (23 Viewers)

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Sven only lost 3 competitive England matches didn't he and had rooney fuck him in 2006 .

Go watch us against portugal in 2004 one of the best euro knockout games ever .. great game
Hoddle had us playing good stuff and got really unlucky that david Beckham decided to kick out at simeone, despite the results we were far better to watch

I didn't like woy or cappelo or mclaren

Southgate wouldn't have won us those tournaments I'm pretty positive about that

Sure Southgate is the best by the distance we've got , sure I can't argue against that .. but I can talk about the factors that made it easier .
And I certainly can talk about the dreadful football we played at times

Football is a results based business though, it’s not gymnastics where the scores are based on a judges opinion.

In 1998 we finished second in the group to Romania and likewise in 2002 we finished 2nd to Sweden.

Southgate has lost more competitive games because the Nations League count as competitive games. Under Sven, we lost against the following teams in friendlies:
Sweden
Netherlands
Italy
Spain
Denmark
Australia

A win % of 50% at major tournaments, Southgate’s was 54%. Southgate’s teams scored more goals in both the World Cup and Euros than both England managers you name checked. Sven’s teams scored 12 goals in 10 games compared to ‘negative’ Southgate’s teams scoring 25 goals in 12 games. The picture remains the same for qualifying records too:

World Cup Qualification:
Southgate: 56 goals in 19 games = 2.94 goals per game, GD +50

Eriksson: 33 goals in 16 games = 2.02 per game, GD

Euro Qualification:
Southgate: 59 goals in 19 games = 3.68 goals per game, GD +49

Eriksson: 14 goals in 8 games = 1.75 goals per games, GD +23

Our defensive record was better under Southgate too. Less goals conceded in more games. We have a clear winner.

There’s just not a metric you can argue where Hoddle, Sven or any manager England has had in past that bests Southgate at major tournaments or in qualification.

 

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[wingy]

Football is a results based business though, it’s not gymnastics where the scores are based on a judges opinion.

In 1998 we finished second in the group to Romania and likewise in 2002 we finished 2nd to Sweden.

Southgate has lost more competitive games because the Nations League count as competitive games. Under Sven, we lost against the following teams in friendlies:
Sweden
Netherlands
Italy
Spain
Denmark
Australia

A win % of 50% at major tournaments, Southgate’s was 54%. Southgate’s teams scored more goals in both the World Cup and Euros than both England managers you name checked. Sven’s teams scored 12 goals in 10 games compared to ‘negative’ Southgate’s teams scoring 25 goals in 12 games. The picture remains the same for qualifying records too:

World Cup Qualification:
Southgate: 56 goals in 19 games = 2.94 goals per game, GD +50

Eriksson: 33 goals in 16 games = 2.02 per game, GD

Euro Qualification:
Southgate: 59 goals in 19 games = 3.68 goals per game, GD +49

Eriksson: 14 goals in 8 games = 1.75 goals per games, GD +23

Our defensive record was better under Southgate too. Less goals conceded in more games. We have a clear winner.

There’s just not a metric you can argue where Hoddle, Sven or any manager England has had in past that bests Southgate at major tournaments or in qualification.

It's actually meant to be a spectacle,no?

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

It depends how much you want to pick out random stats to claim "success".

See above, nothing random about it. Each manager needed to qualify against the same calibre of teams. Play seeded teams in WCs

It's actually meant to be a spectacle,no?

The fun is winning.

I’d rather see Cov win 46 boring 1-0 wins than to see us have high scoring draws and losses.

How do you define a spectacle? We’re scoring more goals than the supposedly best and more entertaining managers we’ve had.

 

[Evo1883]

Football is a results based business though, it’s not gymnastics where the scores are based on a judges opinion.

In 1998 we finished second in the group to Romania and likewise in 2002 we finished 2nd to Sweden.

Southgate has lost more competitive games because the Nations League count as competitive games. Under Sven, we lost against the following teams in friendlies:
Sweden
Netherlands
Italy
Spain
Denmark
Australia

A win % of 50% at major tournaments, Southgate’s was 54%. Southgate’s teams scored more goals in both the World Cup and Euros than both England managers you name checked. Sven’s teams scored 12 goals in 10 games compared to ‘negative’ Southgate’s teams scoring 25 goals in 12 games. The picture remains the same for qualifying records too:

World Cup Qualification:
Southgate: 56 goals in 19 games = 2.94 goals per game, GD +50

Eriksson: 33 goals in 16 games = 2.02 per game, GD

Euro Qualification:
Southgate: 59 goals in 19 games = 3.68 goals per game, GD +49

Eriksson: 14 goals in 8 games = 1.75 goals per games, GD +23

Our defensive record was better under Southgate too. Less goals conceded in more games. We have a clear winner.

There’s just not a metric you can argue where Hoddle, Sven or any manager England has had in past that bests Southgate at major tournaments or in qualification.

Right il leave this here , and I don't know what else to say

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Right il leave this here , and I don't know what else to say View attachment 36959
View attachment 36960
View attachment 36961

I don’t think this is the slam dunk you think it is. Southgate’s average semi final opponents were on par with previous England managers QF opponents. Correct?

Southgate’s record is 66% in semi finals and in 2018, we were the lower ranked team. Therefore, why did England only make 3 semi finals between 1966 and 2018?

In 16 quarter-finals in major tournaments, England won 6. Half of which were won by Southgate. Therefore, excluding Southgate the record is 3 wins in 12 which is a win % of 25%.

 

[Evo1883]

I don’t think this is the slam dunk you think it is. Southgate’s average semi final opponents were on par with previous England managers QF opponents. Correct?

Southgate’s record is 66% in semi finals and in 2018, we were the lower ranked team. Therefore, why did England only make 3 semi finals between 1966 and 2018?

In 16 quarter-finals in major tournaments, England won 6. Half of which were won by Southgate. Therefore, excluding Southgate the record is 3 wins in 12 which is a win % of 25%.

I've just shown you that England had easier knockout stage opponents in the last 8 years , in black and white .

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I've just shown you that England had easier knockout stage opponents in the last 8 years , in black and white .

Correct. Yet, it unwittingly showed that Southgate’s SF opponents were on par with past England managers QF opponents.

Yet, Southgate’s records in semi-finals was 66%, whereas across those previous England managers, their record was 25%. Both control groups faced opponents with an average world ranking of 6th. You showed me that in black and white.

 

[Evo1883]

Correct. Yet, it unwittingly showed that Southgate’s SF opponents were on par with past England managers QF opponents.

Yet, Southgate’s records in semi-finals was 66%, whereas across those previous England managers, their record was 25%. Both control groups faced opponents with an average world ranking of 6th. You showed me that in black and white.

No it shows that England had harder games in earlier rounds .. nothing to do with win ratios of any manager

You're bizarrely adding that in from somewhere

 

[Evo1883]

The harder games in earlier rounds is partly down to the smaller tournament format in the euros which meant tougher quarter final games on average

We never had a round of 16 in 2004 for example, we did in the world cup

 

[Frostie]

I've just shown you that England had easier knockout stage opponents in the last 8 years , in black and white .

Partly because we won the groups of course.

 

[Evo1883]

Partly because we won the groups of course.

We didn't win the group in 2018

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

No it shows that England had harder games in earlier rounds .. nothing to do with win ratios of any manager

You're bizarrely adding that in from somewhere

It conveniently misses that England faced harder routes to the final because between 1990-2024 we won our group 7 times out of 18 major tournaments. 3 of which were topped by Southgate. Again, Southgate topped 75% of his groups versus 29% of other England managers. Which further strengthens my argument. Context matters and the key takeaway for the next manager is: win your group.

Your image showed that the average opponent for England in the SF final under Southgate was equal to those QF opponents. Yet Southgate’s win % was far superior to his predecessors.

Remember, it was always a cliche that England ‘did it the hard way’. Which means they fucked up their groups.

 

[Evo1883]

It conveniently misses that England faced harder routes to the final because between 1990-2024 we won our group 7 times out of 18 major tournaments. 3 of which were topped by Southgate. Again, Southgate topped 75% of his groups versus 29% of other England managers. Which strengthens my argument more. Context matters and the key takeaway for the next manager is: win your group.

Your image showed that the average opponent for England in the SF final under Southgate was equal to those QF opponents. Yet Southgate’s win % was far superior to his predecessors.

Remember, it was always a cliche that England ‘did it the hard way’. Which means they fucked up their groups.

You're missing things here too btw

How may times did we get out the group , we didnt qualify for every tournament for starters so we cant compare tournament football to them years ..and when you say context matters , in 2004 for example we were In the same group as France so we finished 2nd

Context really does matter , you should try using some

 

[Evo1883]

Missing context too that In all the European championships up until 2016 we had 4 groups and less shit teams in the groups .. but hey ho Mr stat man that misses loads of key information out knows best no Round of 16 either but context right

And what are you on about with southgates win ratio in knockouts??? The table is simply showing we had harder matches in earlier rounds so it's harder to progress ffs , how fucking hard is it ??

66% of semis blah blah , making no bloody sense

And ironically , the minute Southgate played a good team in the quarters in France.. we lost in what was his hardest tournament on paper .

And when he finished 2nd in the group , he lost 3 games in that tournament too

So the long and curly is , get lucky with what side of draw you on because even if you win your group a good team might play you still early doors

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You're missing things here too btw

How may times did we get out the group , we didnt qualify for every tournament for starters so we cant compare tournament football to them years ..and when you say context matters , in 2004 for example we were In the same group as France so we finished 2nd

Context really does matter , you should try using some

We failed to qualify for 1 World Cup (1994) and a Euros (2008) if you don’t qualify that’s the worst outcome so not sure how that goes against what I’m saying.

We had France in our group in 2012 and topped it then. Do I discount that too? Of course not, it just doesn’t suit your narrative. Did you also forget we were 1-0 up against France until the 90th minute in 2004? Had we held on we’d have topped the group.

1) You tried saying ex-managers were more entertaining. Southgate outperformed the ones you name checked on several metrics i.e. win % and goals scored per game + overall GD

2) You tried the expose the ‘easier path’ argument which exposed a) the failure of past England managers to win their group stages and b) where the average opponent difficulty was equal (Pre-Southgate QF versus Southgate era SF), Southgate outperformed his predecessors again winning 66% v 25% of ties against teams where the average world ranking is 6th

Whichever way you look at it, Southgate is undoubtedly the best manager we’ve had since 1974.

 

[Evo1883]

We failed to qualify for 1 World Cup (1994) and a Euros (2008) if you don’t qualify that’s the worst outcome so not sure how that goes against what I’m saying.

We had France in our group in 2012 and topped it then. Do I discount that too? Of course not, it just doesn’t suit your narrative. Did you also forget we were 1-0 up against France until the 90th minute in 2004? Had we held on we’d have topped the group.

1) You tried saying ex-managers were more entertaining. Southgate outperformed the ones you name checked on several metrics i.e. win % and goals scored per game + overall GD

2) You tried the expose the ‘easier path’ argument which exposed a) the failure of past England managers to win their group stages and b) where the average opponent difficulty was equal (Pre-Southgate QF versus Southgate era SF), Southgate outperformed his predecessors again winning 66% v 25% of ties against teams where the average world ranking is 6th

Whichever way you look at it, Southgate is undoubtedly the best manager we’ve had since 1974.

The easier path argument is fact.. the tournament is easier , Southgate took England further when the tournament expanded and got easier , we had easier draws , it's in black and white .

Our knockout draws have been easier under Gareth, again in black and white

Using the old format Southgate would have faced better teams earlier on and probably in the groups , there's no guarantee he makes it past the quarters ..

Context matters , as you say

Southgate won nothing , like the rest

Pretty soon they will expand the world cup , that too will see easier routes to the final as a result if you're a decent side

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Missing context too that In all the European championships up until 2016 we had 4 groups and less shit teams in the groups .. but hey ho Mr stat man that misses loads of key information out knows best no Round of 16 either but context right

And what are you on about with southgates win ratio in knockouts??? The table is simply showing we had harder matches in earlier rounds so it's harder to progress ffs , how fucking hard is it ??

66% of semis blah blah , making no bloody sense

And ironically , the minute Southgate played a good team in the quarters in France.. we lost in what was his hardest tournament on paper .

And when he finished 2nd in the group , he lost 3 games in that tournament too

So the long and curly is , get lucky with what side of draw you on because even if you win your group a good team might play you still early doors

The chart you paraded showed that ‘other England managers’ QF opponents were equal in strength to Southgate’s SF opponents. This is a source you’ve shared.

Why was our QF record 25% pre-Southgate? Even if you remove the Euros, our World Cup in quarter finals record is still 30%. Yet Southgate’s record in semi-finals is 66% against, according to your source, an average difficulty similar to that our past QF opponents.

We lost 3 games to higher ranked teams and 2018 was genuinely the worst squad we took to a major tournament since the 90s according to the FIFA world rankings.

 

[Evo1883]

The chart you paraded showed that ‘other England managers’ QF opponents were equal in strength to Southgate’s SF opponents. This is a source you’ve shared.

Why was our QF record 25% pre-Southgate? Even if you remove the Euros, our World Cup in quarter finals record is still 30%. Yet Southgate’s record in semi-finals is 66% against, according to your source, an average difficulty similar to that our past QF opponents.

We lost 3 games to higher ranked teams and 2018 was genuinely the worst squad we took to a major tournament since the 90s according to the FIFA world rankings.

But all the round previous were harder too , so the likelihood of getting there is even less , the fact the last 16 ties are harder automatically means it's harder to make the quarters and the semi .

it's not as straight forward as how you are working out


Lemme ask you a question away from this , who do you think is a better manager , ten hag or arteta

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The easier path argument is fact.. the tournament is easier , Southgate took England further when the tournament expanded and got easier , we had easier draws , it's in black and white .

Our knockout draws have been easier under Gareth, again in black and white

Using the old format Southgate would have faced better teams earlier on and probably in the groups , there's no guarantee he makes it past the quarters ..

Context matters , as you say

Southgate won nothing , like the rest

Pretty soon they will expand the world cup , that too will see easier routes to the final as a result if you're a decent side

Had we finished second in our group this tournament, to get the final we’d have needed to to beat; Germany, Spain, France and then whoever made it to the final. Probably the Netherlands.

Which demonstrates exactly how important winning the group is. It isn’t ‘lucky’.

Revisit the following tournaments to see how we would have had easier routes to the final had we won our groups:

France 1998 - 2nd to Romania
Japan/South Korea 2002 - 2nd to Sweden
Portugal 2004 - 2nd to France
South Africa 2010 - 2nd to USA
France 2016 - 2nd to Wales

Of those tournaments, with France 2016 being a 50:50, we had unambiguously a more favourable route to the final had we won’t the group.

We genuinely got ‘lucky’ in 2018, but the other tournaments, we won the groul

 

[Evo1883]

Had we finished second in our group this tournament, to get the final we’d have needed to to beat; Germany, Spain, France and then whoever made it to the final. Probably the Netherlands.

Which demonstrates exactly how important winning the group is. It isn’t ‘lucky’.

Revisit the following tournaments to see how we would have had easier routes to the final had we won our groups:

France 1998 - 2nd to Romania
Japan/South Korea 2002 - 2nd to Sweden
Portugal 2004 - 2nd to France
South Africa 2010 - 2nd to USA
France 2016 - 2nd to Wales

Of those tournaments, with France 2016 being a 50:50, we had unambiguously a more favourable route to the final had we won’t the group.

We genuinely got ‘lucky’ in 2018, but the other tournaments, we won the groul

Got lucky in 2018 because it's fits your argument too .. honestly enough of this nonsense now tbh .. it's 1:20 am and I'm talking about a manager I genuinely cannot stand (managerially )
With somebody who idolises him .

We've done this before , nothings changed

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

But all the round previous were harder too , so the likelihood of getting there is even less , the fact the last 16 ties are harder automatically means it's harder to make the quarters and the semi .

You'd have to do percentages based off the percentage differences from each round previous , it's not as straight forward as how you are working out


Lemme ask you a question away from this , who do you think is a better manager , ten hag or arteta

Why do you need to do % of %.

If you win your group, which England rarely have done in world cups, let alone Euros pre-Southgate, you’re going to draw difficult teams earlier in the tournament. That is the root cause; not winning the group to secure an easier draw.

Southgate winning the groups shouldn’t be a stick to beat him with - that’s a norm we want to establish!

Arteta is a better manager than ten Haag.

 

[Evo1883]

Why do you need to do % of %.

If you win your group, which England rarely have done in world cups, let alone Euros pre-Southgate, you’re going to draw difficult teams earlier in the tournament. That is the root cause; not winning the group to secure an easier draw.

Southgate winning the groups shouldn’t be a stick to beat him with - that’s a norm we want to establish!

Arteta is a better manager than ten Haag.

Ten haag has won 2 trophies in 2 seasons and arteta 1 trophy in 5 seasons

I agree with you btw

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Got lucky in 2018 because it's fits your argument too .. honestly enough of this nonsense now tbh .. it's 1:20 am and I'm talking about a manager I genuinely cannot stand (managerially )
With somebody who idolises him .

We've done this before , nothings changed

I’m in agreement we got lucky in 2018. Coming 2nd in the group benefitted us. there hasn’t been many instances in past tournaments where coming 2nd would benefit us like it did in 2018.

I don’t idolise Southgate. I just acknowledge what he’s done for the country and think he’s unjustly treated by people like yourself.

Every argument put forward against him just doesn’t hold true against the stats.

 

[Evo1883]

I’m in agreement we got lucky in 2018. Coming 2nd in the group benefitted us. there hasn’t been many instances in past tournaments where coming 2nd would benefit us like it did in 2018.

I don’t idolise Southgate. I just acknowledge what he’s done for the country and think he’s unjustly treated by people like yourself.

Every argument put forward against him just doesn’t hold true against the stats.

The stats are different in a different era with different teams and a different level of competition , it's not the same

The tournament in question has a Different format for starters , it's more interesting to see how the next England manager does compared to Southgate really , to really see how good he was

 

[Evo1883]

I've proper kicked the arse out of this over the last 6 years , sorry lads ffs fucking nuts honestly

Ignore me , just think I'm a know it all twat.

My bad

 

[Otis]

Bottom line in all this is that England were very poor across the tournament, apart from very, very fleeting moments and deserved to go out of the competition much sooner than they did.

You keep playing poorly and hardly create any chances all game, then you can expect to get knocked out and can expect to never win anything.

 

[LastGarrison]

Southgate would be proud at how defensive and boring this thread has gone.

 

[Evo1883]

Southgate would be proud at how defensive and boring this thread has gone.

Got to admit I've even bored myself with this one .. apologies

 

[Evo1883]

On a separate note

48 teams at the next World Cup in 2026

12 groups

6 weeks long

Crazy

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Bottom line in all this is that England were very poor across the tournament, apart from very, very fleeting moments and deserved to go out of the competition much sooner than they did.

You keep playing poorly and hardly create any chances all game, then you can expect to get knocked out and can expect to never win anything.

We were lucky to win against Slovakia in the circumstances we did. There was no luck v Switzerland or the Netherlands.

England were clear favourites to get to the final from our half of the draw. Therefore, we achieved the minimum expectation in my view.

Southgate knows his leadership, rightly or wrongly, has become a sideshow and distraction for the team. The atmosphere around him and the team has soured and all goodwill has gone. Therefore, him walking away was the right decision for him personally.

I’m excited for the next chapter and think Southgate has built impressive foundations for a new manager to come in and take us to the next level.

 

[Sky_Blue_Dreamer]

Consideration needs to be taken to the fact international management appears to be totally different to club level. International managers spend far less time with the players, have very little time to implement a style of football and have the challenge of bringing a group of players together who don't regularly play together week in week out (and who play different styles and levels of football for their clubs) to suddenly play as a cohesive unit every few months of the calendar year. It could be argued that Southgate did this integration bit off the pitch incredibly well regardless of any other shortfalls on the pitch.

Just my opinion, I obviously have no experience of either but I just think expectations need to be set, i.e. I don't think it's realistic that if we got Pepe that we will suddenly be playing like Man City or prime Barcelona likewise with Klopp we may not achieve a similar style to what he implemented at Liverpool. They would need to adapt as they have to essentially implement a style of football (perhaps a less complex style) with much less time application time available and deal with different variables to club managers.

Out of interest how many successful international managers have also made it at club level?

Sent from my SM-A346B using Tapatalk

But having that less time to work with teams arguably makes his decision to have slow build up play all the more strange.

Most of the players under him play quick counter-attacking football at club level, yet for England it was take the extra touch and pass it backwards. It wasn't using them in a way that they're used to and seems to suit them.

 

[wingy]

But having that less time to work with teams arguably makes his decision to have slow build up play all the more strange.

Most of the players under him play quick counter-attacking football at club level, yet for England it was take the extra touch and pass it backwards. It wasn't using them in a way that they're used to and seems to suit them.

Clarify that last bit,take it two ways,meaning his way suits them pedent alert!

 

[CCFCSteve]

But having that less time to work with teams arguably makes his decision to have slow build up play all the more strange.

Most of the players under him play quick counter-attacking football at club level, yet for England it was take the extra touch and pass it backwards. It wasn't using them in a way that they're used to and seems to suit them.

Think I mentioned before, the goal against Spain took 16 seconds from Pickford throw out (how often did that happen ?) to Palmers goal. Caught Spain on the hop and should’ve done this far more often with the players we’ve got…would’ve helped having Gordon on for more than 4 minutes as well !

As others have said, Southgate fell into the age of problem of trying to squeeze all the ‘best players’ into the team rather than finding the best team

 

[skybluecam]

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[SeaSeeEffCee]

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A few on here will be getting their applications in surely?