Women's Boxing in the Olympics (16 Viewers)

[djr8369]

Many with this condition can’t give birth

But not all?

 

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[Liquid Gold]

Many with this condition can’t give birth

But from what I can see many can. If this person is one and they are male then it doesn't make sense.

From what I can tell, and I'm open to seeing anything that will change my mind, they are either female or the binary thing is a nonsense and they are intersex.

 

[Otis]

A thread on this but not the child rapist competing in the volleyball

It's been mentioned. We have certainly been talking about it a lot in our household.

 

[Grendel]

But not all?

It would be extremely unlikely with the levels reported in this athelete. I’m puzzled by the response on this. The classification is biologically male by the sports bodies.

 

[Liquid Gold]

A thread on this but not the child rapist competing in the volleyball

To be charitable here there is nothing to discuss there. I'm sure everybody is outraged they are able to compete so there is nothing worth a thread, would just be everyone lining up to say nonces are bad.

This has a thread because there is more nuance.

 

[Jamesimus]

It would be extremely unlikely with the levels reported in this athelete. I’m puzzled by the response on this. The classification is biologically male by the sports bodies.

“By the sports bodies”

 

[Nick]

Have seen it mentioned about the volleyball player on a couple of threads, no chance he should be competing and to be fair should be 2 footed around the volleyball court as well.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

What next, stop tall people from playing basketball?

@Skyblueweeman likes this

 

[djr8369]

It would be extremely unlikely with the levels reported in this athelete. I’m puzzled by the response on this. The classification is biologically male by the sports bodies.

The response is due to the victory laps by some that the Olympics let men box women due to “wokery”. The same people have been saying that sex is binary and not allowing nuanced discussion to take place. This stance has directly led the this situation because externally the athlete presents as female. What seems to be the case is the individual has an intersex condition and could be categorised either sex dependent upon what is used to categorise.

I know very little on the wider subject and am happy to be corrected but “the athlete is biological male” seems to neglect the nuance of the situation.

 

[djr8369]

But from what I can see many can. If this person is one and they are male then it doesn't make sense.

From what I can tell, and I'm open to seeing anything that will change my mind, they are either female or the binary thing is a nonsense and they are intersex.

This is what I am getting at but more succinct.

 

[Otis]

I know people are trying to give definitive answers, but to me, this is anything but clear cut. I truly can see both sides.

I do also think there would be much more clear argument to find had this boxer been winning all her fights, therefore showing a very distinct advantage.

She's not been.

 

[Jamesimus]

Just to clarify, would those against be happy enough for an athlete with low enough testosterone to meet the criteria for female, but with a penis, to compete with other females?

 

[CCFCSteve]

I know people are trying to give definitive answers, but to me, this is anything but clear cut. I truly can see both sides.

I do also think there would be much more clear argument to find had this boxer been winning all her fights, therefore showing a very distinct advantage.

She's not been.

I agree it’s not clear cut

This is amateur boxing though, shorter length fights, where a fast/slick fighter might be able to avoid her punches and pick up sufficient points to win. The problem is if she lands she has this biological advantage (I’m not sure if she might be able withstand punches better as well). I suppose it’s whether people consider that fair or not

 

[oakey]

The normal range for testosterone in a female is well below the range in a male.
So this is a non starter. A male cannot reduce his testosterone to a female level.

 

[Ccfcisparks]

The normal range for testosterone in a female is well below the range in a male.
So this is a non starter. A male cannot reduce his testosterone to a female level.

I'm not sure. Some of the soyboy cucks on here have female testosterone level

 

[chiefdave]

If we’re looking at safety and physicality what about sports that have mixed teams?

Ice hockey is a pretty aggressive sport and I’ve not seen any complaints about Blaze having female players?

 

[Jamesimus]

The normal range for testosterone in a female is well below the range in a male.
So this is a non starter. A male cannot reduce his testosterone to a female level.

Don’t trans people do this all the time? Pretty sure they can and do through drugs and/or hormone therapy

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

I think the argument was that she has an XY chromosome, which genetically meant she should have been born a male but because of a medical condition the male reproductive organs didn't grow and form correctly and as such she was assigned birth gender as a female and raised as a female.

difficult one to call on really

 

[rob9872]

Genuinely don't understand this having read both sides, but we're already 3 pages into an argument by the SBT experts. Love it!

 

[Flying Fokker]

If the 2 boxers failed the gender tests how do you conclude that they are women? Please explain.
Try to do so without mentioning the red herring of testosterone.

The normal range for testosterone in a female is well below the range in a male.
So this is a non starter. A male cannot reduce his testosterone to a female level.

I’d like to see the science around that conclusion. Does this mean that some males will have a higher lever of female hormones?

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Yeah, that's the way I see it.

Not the way the Mail are reporting it though.

She WAS born a woman, right? And has continued to be so.

The Mail are calling her a biological male

There calling her a biological male as they are saying she has an xy chromosome i believe

 

[djr8369]

There calling her a biological male as they are saying she has an xy chromosome i believe

Yes but also saying it’s due to wokeness. It’s not. It’s an edge case where assignment of sex is not straight forward.

 

[Grendel]

Yes but also saying it’s due to wokeness. It’s not. It’s an edge case where assignment of sex is not straight forward.

What has wokeness to do with anything?

 

[Nick]

I reckon I could have a chance of at least a bronze in the under 10s girls boxing tournament.

Just got to get my testosterone down a bit.

 

[Mr Panda]

Don't think this has been written as a direct explanation in the context of the individual in question, but has surfaced to provide a scientific explanation of athletes with DSD's, for anyone interested.

 

[djr8369]

What has wokeness to do with anything?

Nothing, that my point? But that was the claim of the Mail linked earlier in thread.

 

[djr8369]

Sorry, long post and long-time lurker!

The issue of identifying as a woman might be 'nuanced' overall, in other contexts and in social settings etc, but if there's any area where we have to make it as simple as possible and have sex segregated competition for safety reasons, it's sport. This athlete has xy chromosomes, they are biologically male and will have had the advantages of elevated testosterone levels and a male puberty. Even if those levels are acceptable now to compete against women, they will still have gained strength advantages i.e lots of men have low testosterone but they are still outwardly stronger than women.

The example people are giving of taller women in competitions etc isn't comparative to the advantage male levels of testosterone would give, I don't think anyone has an issue about the variance within sex segregated categories - we can't have competitions of people exactly the same but we can have some basic markers...that they're biologically female being one.

It's being made a 'complicated' area for the feelings of a very very very few number of intersex athletes and it becomes unfair for everyone. It's sad on a personal level for the athlete but I'm more sad for biological women that have to compete against someone with male biological advantage and teammates of the same country who have missed out on a place at the Olympics because of a biological male taking their place. It may be unfortunate for the athlete at hand but for the overall category and fairness of women's sport it's necessary to make things as simple as possible tests to determine sex, for the sake of women's sport.

Unfortunately I suspect that a lot of foul play happens where intersex athletes are encouraged to press on into female categories because of this 'confusion' and the desire and status to win for countries/trainers etc - it's a disservice to the athletes for the invasive way their body and privacy is then discussed and the overall sport for turning this into a 'confusion' that could be avoided.

Mainly agree but don’t think any of this is down to worrying about the feelings of intersex athletes but that some parties are trying to force the sex is binary and based on your genitalia argument. This case shows why that is a dumb stance and nuance is required.

 

[Liquid Gold]

It is complicated. If some with a vagina and cervix that could get pregnant isn't a woman then who is?

 

[Mr Panda]

I still don’t know what the answer is to all this is but I feel desperately sorry for Khelif who has been labelled all sorts by the public and high profile individuals.

Given the part of the world she’s from and her culture, I’d be worried about continuing to be unfairly targeted for something which is out of her control.

 

[rob9872]

Tbf if there's sports which you'd think would attract women who are high on levels, then boxing and weightlifting would be right near the top I'd have thought. Amazed it's not been more of an issue before.

 

[oakey]

 

[SBAndy]

The normal range for testosterone in a female is well below the range in a male.
So this is a non starter. A male cannot reduce his testosterone to a female level.

Please explain.
Try to do so without mentioning the red herring of testosterone.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I may be really dense here but from what I can see there is just one woman with a higher testosterone count beating another. Isn't that going to happen throughout these games?

The Algerian boxer is a woman, always has been and can get pregnant and have children like any other fertile biological woman. They are from a country with no LGBT rights where changing gender is illegal and it has been reported there are no trans women competing at the games.

I completely appreciate there is an argument to be had about protecting women's sport but I honestly don't see the issue here. Can someone help?

The athlete in question has XY chromosomes and has failed the IOC's 'gender test' yet is still allowed to compete.

 

[djr8369]

 

[oakey]

What I meant is it's a red herring when used in the context of 'this is just a woman with high testosterone' - there's no such thing in healthy women, only in those with a disorder or doping.
If you're trying to argue that this is a female with unusually high testosterone, you're wasting your time.

The IOC know this and their position is untenable.