Gathering for Tommy / Discontent (17 Viewers)

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Grendel

Grendel

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Nick said:
Just going out for the day. Phone might die.

Suggest people also get some air
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Don’t be long @Deleted member 9744 and his precious sensitivities won’t cope
 
rob9872

rob9872

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No pyro no party
 
torchomatic

torchomatic

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robbiekeane

robbiekeane

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rob9872 said:
So for balance (and these are made up numbers so don't quote facts to me), let's say net migration is 1m per year but 100,000 are illegal immigrants if those were stopped, which I think is pretty much the message Rishi was retrying to say, but net immigration remained the same, would people be happier and more accepting? I think they would. It's the illegal word that stokes the fires. In addition a ridiculously high percentage of those are young single males, not families, not women. Is that the crux of the problem? If it is then what answers do we have to tackle that if we all agree that normal migration is good for the country?
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I know you have started that post with recognising that your numbers are made up, but you REALLY need to look at the numbers to see how much of a nonsensical outrage this “illegal immigrants” campaign is.
The numbers and %s are absolutely miniscule.

People are immigrating to the UK due to 1) the need for health workers (approx 50%) and 2) Student visas (approx 50%)

The former is because we’ve chronically underfunded the health care system for decades and exacerbated by an ageing population. The latter is partially linked to favourable visas for health care studies but also just generally having a lot of international students, which surely is the type of immigration people want?

People are angry because they feel left behind by their government and by society. It’s quite difficult to address this in a meaningful way, so they instead turn on those below them in the chain because they

a) are easy to identify because they look different

b) the media stoke the furnace to stir up the hate because it keeps them looking the other way and

c) is there anything worse than feeling like someone else is getting things handed out to them when you’re struggling so much, especially when people feel like they have some sort of intrinsic right to more because they won the ovarian lottery and were born on the island
 
robbiekeane

robbiekeane

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shmmeee said:
What are “the underlying problems” though?

Just going to try and steel man the anti immigration right, happy to be corrected here and these are explicitly not my views before anyone jumps on me.

There seems to be two main issues: one I’ll call criminal immigration which can be split into: letting in asylum seekers specifically who contribute less and commit more crime. But also the idea that some people are bypassing the system entirely due to the fact asylum seekers are using non conventional methods for entering the country. By international law we have to allow asylum seekers to do this so we need to leave bodies that enforce said law. Or I assume push for change in those bodies. We need to be better at spotting potential criminals and stronger coming down on those criminals when they show they are criminals.

A good asylum system if it were to exist at all would process people away from the UK and not let people in unless they had documentation and a clean record regardless of the risks of genuine asylum seekers not being able to do this.

The other is pure numbers, we should be paying better wages in areas like health and social care to reduce the need for foreign workers. Based on the Brexit arguments I’m assuming this translates to higher taxes to fund this. Where the economy needs workers it can’t find it should automate or hire only at the top end of the work force (ie scientists and the like not care and warehouse workers). Businesses that need more workers outside of these rules will just have to accept limits on their expansion. Again happier to pay higher taxes or have less services if it means fewer foreigners.

I feel like the first is a small but visible and scary and emotive problem that is hard to eliminate (asylum seekers or their recent descendants committing violent crime). And leaving the ECHR is a contentious issue and reforming it not an easy one.

The second seems to be more contentious in its own right as I doubt many on the liberal right would accept higher taxes and lower growth and those on the conservative right don’t want worse services. But that’s where I’d like to see actual policy proposals from the right. They’ve had the levers to the controls for 14 years and are unhappier than ever, and even Reforms net zero immigration had a massive loophole that basically meant no actual significant change in numbers.

What isn’t possible any way is making Britain more white than it is now. Which seems to be what a lot of social conservatives want. Short of Trump style mass deportation efforts and an acceptance of Korean style population collapse and the disappearance of Britain as a country.
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You just described a few of the underlying problems quite well actually

Others would be poor public services from being chronically underfunded. Increasing economic inequality (and much more in your face due to social media). Lasting economic effects of Covid. Inflation decreasing people’s real income. Higher university and education costs decreasing social mobility.
Etc

Edit: I’ll also add brain drain, Brexit consequences, and general decreasing relevance and status of the UK on the global stage
 
torchomatic

torchomatic

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Section 60 orders now in place in Liverpool and Southport.

Violence and disorder in Rotherham was shocking.
 
pusbccfc

pusbccfc

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At least Starmer has cancelled his holiday..
 
torchomatic

torchomatic

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torchomatic

torchomatic

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Deleted member 5849 said:
I did chuckle. Go home from a nice bit of rioting and looting for a relaxing bath

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And a few candles and a glass of red while soaking in the bath...then his front door gets smashed in...
 
duffer

duffer

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rob9872 said:
So for balance (and these are made up numbers so don't quote facts to me), let's say net migration is 1m per year but 100,000 are illegal immigrants if those were stopped, which I think is pretty much the message Rishi was retrying to say, but net immigration remained the same, would people be happier and more accepting? I think they would. It's the illegal word that stokes the fires. In addition a ridiculously high percentage of those are young single males, not families, not women. Is that the crux of the problem? If it is then what answers do we have to tackle that if we all agree that normal migration is good for the country?
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Nice to have a bit of debate on it without the heat. For a Tory, you're actually quite a decent bloke... Sometimes. 😁

I'm thinking, and this is just a starter for ten, that you way to stop 'illegal' immigration, is to give people genuine access to legitimate channels.

You've got to use the legitimate channels to filter genuine asylum seekers from economic migrants, because (imho) the former have to be treated according to the international laws that Winston Churchill helped put in place.

You've also got to treat the latter humanely too, until you can figure out what to do with them. The key is for that process to be quick and fair.

I'd be very tempted to introduce some kind of lottery or waiting list idea. If you're honest about who you are and where you come from, then you get at least a chance of coming in, even if we send you home first. If you apply from home, you'll have the same (or better?) chance, but without risking your life and savings.

This is back of a fag packet stuff, and I wouldn't claim to have thought it through, but imho, we need to urgently get these people out of the hands of the gangs in France and elsewhere, and out of the simultaneously expensive and shithole hovels they're stuck in over here.
 
bigfatronssba

bigfatronssba

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duffer said:
Nice to have a bit of debate on it without the heat. For a Tory, you're actually quite a decent bloke... Sometimes. 😁

I'm thinking, and this is just a starter for ten, that you way to stop 'illegal' immigration, is to give people genuine access to legitimate channels.

You've got to use the legitimate channels to filter genuine asylum seekers from economic migrants, because (imho) the former have to be treated according to the international laws that Winston Churchill helped put in place.

You've also got to treat the latter humanely too, until you can figure out what to do with them. The key is for that process to be quick and fair.

I'd be very tempted to introduce some kind of lottery or waiting list idea. If you're honest about who you are and where you come from, then you get at least a chance of coming in, even if we send you home first. If you apply from home, you'll have the same (or better?) chance, but without risking your life and savings.

This is back of a fag packet stuff, and I wouldn't claim to have thought it through, but imho, we need to urgently get these people out of the hands of the gangs in France and elsewhere, and out of the simultaneously expensive and shithole hovels they're stuck in over here.
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They do have legitimate channels. They buy a plane ticket, and then at arrival on the border they request asylum

The small boats lot are the equivalent of someone who kicks your door in and then asks to use your phone because they need help. The answer from most normal people would be f. off.
 
D

Deleted member 9744

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Grendel said:
Don’t be long @Deleted member 9744 and his precious sensitivities won’t cope
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Do you disagree with the club's stance on racism? Do you think there are forms of racism that are acceptable and that should be tolerated? Do you think it was ok for the Sheffield Wednesday fan to racially abuse Kasey Palmer?

What level of racism is ok? What is an acceptable level of racism as far as you are concened?
 
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bigfatronssba

bigfatronssba

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bigfatronssba

bigfatronssba

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Deleted member 9744 said:
Do you disagree with the club's stance on racism? Do you think it was ok for the Sheffield Wednesday fan to racially abuse Kasey Palmer?

What level of racism is ok? Is there some acceptable level of racism as far as you are concened?
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Do you equate a secure border with "racism"?

Also, how ridiculous do you have to be to think that because you object to an idiot doing monkey gestures at a fellow Brit does it then mean you also have to have an open borders policy?
 
bigfatronssba

bigfatronssba

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Deleted member 5849 said:
How do you get on that then?
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Phone.

The same one they use to get in touch with the people smugglers with. The same phone that they've been witnessed throwing into the sea whilst crossing
 
D

Deleted member 5849

Guest
bigfatronssba said:
Phone.

The same one they use to get in touch with the people smugglers with. The same phone that they've been witnessed throwing into the sea whilst crossing
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I'm thinking you don't have much of a clue as to how hard it is to escape your torture and torment at the hands of an enemy determined to destroy you and your kind.
 
bigfatronssba

bigfatronssba

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Deleted member 5849 said:
I'm thinking you don't have much of a clue as to how hard it is to escape your torture and torment at the hands of an enemy determined to destroy you and your kind.
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Mate, I've been to France.

Yes, its unpleasant, but I think you're exaggerating. I don't remember being tortured except when trying to watch their TV
 
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