current health of CCFC (1 Viewer)

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
There is a major charm campaign going on at CCFC...... not before time to be honest.... but I think a healthy scepticism remains important when looking at things Sky Blue. It is great that the Chairman wants to meet some of the fans, that Brody wants to be available to talk on radio etc, and that the chief exec and others want to be out there promoting CCFC. It’s about time they left their ivory towers and at least made an effort. They have a lot to make up I only hope that fans do not have short memories!

On the pitch things seem to be improving. It is at least better to watch but I would point out although AT has adjusted things the team was changing the approach before AB left. The biggest difference is in attitude not necessarily the tactics. Players seem happier and with a bit of buzz about them. Why? Well I think you have to give AT a lot of credit for that he has taken the shackles off and told the players he trusts and believes in them- they responded. Also the off field stuff has settled down a little, and all employees including the players know they will at least get paid until the end of the season – dont have to worry about paying the mortgage and what ever people say that has to affect performance. One game doesnt make a good team but at least the fans got some reward for a poor season on Saturday against Watford. It is how the team follows that up that is now important, but I think we as fans are more hopeful than we have been for some time.

Hopefully no CCFC supporters will be taken by all this when they look at the financial plight of club. Dont get me wrong all the above is positive stuff but it does not change the financial situation we are in. Can provide my calculations but.....

I reckon losses are running between £6m and £7m for the year to 31/05/11 after writing down the value of the squad

Crowds are running at less than 16k on average current set up probably needs crowds at least of 23k to breakeven

The finances at the club are not transparent and I reckon there is all sorts of wheeling and dealing going on certainly SISU intentions are not clear and often contradictory. This just adds to confusion and distrust. The board really have not done anything yet and SISU had to put the money in to avoid administration and a big loss, it wasnt because they wanted to fund it

The accounts for 2010 should show smaller losses (include sale of Dann & fox for starters, better crowds, £250k re Doyle’s wages etc) but my guess is they are held up because auditors need to be sure CCFC are a going concern for next 12 months from now at least before signing off (legal requirement). What does that say about SISU’s plans?

There are around 10 players out of contract in June, rumours of sales of those that are not. No money in the pot to replace them. I think SISU’s emphasis is on driving costs down and that means the wages. That means a team of players made up from lower leagues and youngsters next year, we cant afford others. 2009 accounts showed wages exceeded total turnover by over £1m - thats just not sustainable - so some drastic action is required but think what that will do to the squad and fan base

The big plan is buy the stadium apparently. Well it sounds good to the fans, and if KD was fair he would acknowledge that RR wanted that (aswell as good young players like Carroll, Henderson etc) right from the start. What neither RR nor KD control is the money – clearly SISU couldnt or wouldnt finance the stadium finance then nor now. BUT is it going to make the difference? In 2010 ACL made £500k profit, that isnt going to make a big difference to the losses at CCFC is it! Nor provide funds to invest in players! ACL is the company that has made the Ricoh the success it is – who here has confidence in the management of CCFC even continuing that let alone improving it?

My own feel is that SISU see the stadium purchase as a way to recoup their money. I think they want to buy it cheap and to get it revalued and mortgaged for more. The funds raised will repay at least a big chunk to SISU and wont be reinvested in the team (actually not in favour of financing the team in this manner anyway it is a one off that only delays not cures the problems) The option with the trust is £10m i think and that gets 50% of the shares in ACL it wont get anything they can mortgage they need to buy the other 50% from the council. Quite rightly the council need to see that the stadium (with a growing reputation nationally that reflects well on Coventry) is in good hands. Do you feel it would be? The impression i get is the council dont. There has been too much mis-management and arrogance on the part of CCFC in the past for the Council to be easily taken in. So bang goes that plan

We could be left with few players, no ground, multi million pound loss making company with no assets, dwindling income and owners not keen to support us further – think everyone knows where that leaves us come the summer. Look behind the new gloss and ask what has really changed?

On the pitch is greatly improved off it we are still very much on the brink!
 

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Disorganised1

New Member
Health of CCFC ? ~ Well to give an Aintree analogy, if it were a race-horse it would be shot rather than put out to stud.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
We won't need anything like 23k to breakeven now. With the current wage structure it should be worked on 16-18k because that is the best we can expect to achieve without a sustained period of success and I'm sure they will have done their homework and set budgets that reflect that.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
Not saying they havent done their homework but the overheads at the club excluding wages are the best part of £4m and at crowds of 18k that gives total income of say £9.5m leaving wages at £5.5m for all employees (not just players). In 2009 wages were £10.5 do you think SISU have been able to almost halve the wage bill currently? Still think break even this season is well over 20k. Next season may well be different with all the players leaving and perhaps they will budget for lower crowds to break even. In that case we need to "budget" for more years of struggle
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Overheads don't count towards income ;)

In 2009 your total wages figure is correct but gate receipts then were only £4.9m and this season will have been significantly lower
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
but overheads count towards breakeven !

Total income (excluding profits or losses on player sales) was £8.9m in 2009 accounts. It isnt about just the gate income it is the other income attached to it too plus sponsorship etc. Could probably have worded it better but for simplicity sake i divided total income by the average gate

overheads + direct costs + wages = Total turnover to breakeven (excluding player sales)
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Correct, but that wasn't what you said, which is why I posted so that it was less confusing for others because the figure you are looking for was not £10m but £15m (wages PLUS overheads) to cover the total expenditure. The overheads includes the hire of the Ricoh at £1m per season and policing costs etc etc.

However, since then we have had players leave like Kyle and Doyle (1m pa between them) We won't have Coleman on the books next year and we are told that the City Link deal was the highest in the club's history, so hopefully it will look more healthy not in the next set of accounts but in the one after that.
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
I'm just looking at the 2009 accounts now and it also included £2.5m for player acquisitions. That shoudln't be so in the next set which will include the sale of players like Leon Best and no major purchases. Will be a massive difference versus just some signing on and agents fees.
 

kapowaz

Well-Known Member
I bought the accounting reports from Companies House for ACL and they tell an interesting story. For the first few years the company actually made a considerable loss each year, but that was reversed in 2006 with an up front payment of nearly £6m from the Isle of Capri for the lease of the site for the casino. Subsequent years have shown smaller profits (2007: £869k, 2008: £9k, 2009: £3.2m, 2010: £546k) — and a lack of a consistent growth pattern. I'd probably need to dig deeper, but I suspect the reason for the fluctuations has a lot to do with the initial investment for building the arena in the first place, and certain large chunks of cash from large debtors.

The thing is, you could look at these profits and say — that's rubbish, we'd never be able to use them as a means of financing the club. But the arena has tremendous potential for growth and profit — it's already become a top-tier international concert tour venue, and that is only going to draw in more concerts in future (I got some email from hospitality telling me the Kings of Leon are playing just the other day), they have the Heineken Cup semi-finals on a regular basis now, and in 2012 it's going to be an Olympic venue. We all know it's not gone anywhere yet (!) but the potential for a railway station right next to the stadium will only make it more attractive as a venue for events of every kind. In short: it is probably going to make a decent profit every year from now on, and owning (as opposed to paying rent) the arena is a good rock to anchor the club to.

I'm not convinced that SISU are looking to acquire the arena so as to mortgage it and regain their investment — the site is already mortgaged with around £16m outstanding (as of the end of 2010) — so by buying the stadium they'd be taking on that debt as well. Nonetheless it would probably be a good idea for the council to ensure that the site not being re-mortgaged is a prerequisite of any sale.

How we solve the money problem of CCFC is something I've given a lot of thought to over the past few months, and I'm really not sure what can be done within the scope of the club itself. I remain convinced that supporters all over England need to unite and campaign to have the FA institute more equitable distribution of TV revenues along with club salary caps to bring expenditure down and stop clubs gambling on promotion. At the moment these two things are the source of problems for virtually every club in trouble — either they speculate they can get promoted and thus earn significantly more in the next tier, or they drop down a tier and suddenly can't finance their club on the dramatically reduced income in that division. A linear distribution would really help here — it would both remove the incentive to be reckless as well as cushion the blow from dropping down a division (think about why parachute payments even exist — they'd be redundant if the TV money was distributed more fairly).

How we get the FA to listen to this is another matter. I don't regularly attend matches myself, but I'm sure some of you do and would be interested in getting the ball rolling? Maybe we need to branch out and talk to fans of other clubs who've been through financial turmoil (Portsmouth, Crystal Palace, Southampton etc.)?
 

rob9872

Well-Known Member
Sorry my bad, I meant the next set of accounts which will include the Leon Best Sale. We won't see the ones with Juke in until May 2012.

Also the mortgage mentioned on the ACL I don't think (not certain) we would take on as they are responsible for that separately and the sale (like selling a house) is what would be used to repay that mortgage I believe.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
think you need to read it again - maybe could have put it better but I clearly said total income at £9.5m and overheads at £4m leaving wages at £5.5m. Add wages and overheads = total income to break even. Never looked at £15m

As for Kyle & Doyle leaving ok ..... but we brought in Carsley McSheffery and King all of whom would have cost a fair penny in wages. Coleman will have had to be paid out and that will be reflected in 2011 figures. Plus AB had a 3 year contract that would need to be paid out. 2011 accounts will show at least the losses indicated by SISU (80k pw) but i suspect the final figure will be worse. The City Link sponsorhip will be staged over a number of years and allocated accordingly.

Think the 2012 accounts may well look better but i think they will still show significant losses unless the cost structure is significantly lowered (with all the players leaving it would seem to be) and an increase in total income (largely based on crowd numbers)
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
Good posts oldskyblue my thoughts to add. Have the accounts which were due last month been gone to companys house yet ?
If say we have been losing 4million a year how come 8million is only lasting 2 months ? is the 8million clearing two years of debts in which case the club will have racked up a lot of extra cost and interest on this debt. Have they used some of this 8million to pay off the mortgage on Ryton ?. These are all questions that the club have failed to answer.
Obviously Sisu want a return on there investment but I don't think it matters to them that much because all they will do is right off this money against corporation tax on their other uk investments which are doing ok. Thats why when the accounts come out I wouldn't be surprised if we suddenly find that ccfc owe Sisu 50-60million. A lot of this could be interest that is being accumelated from Sisu on their investment.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I agree the Ricoh has gained a good reputation and there could be more to come in terms of improved income. Past track record of ccfc spoiling things doesnt give me confidence they could follow that through. However Leonard Brody has association with AEG i believe who own major stadia worldwide and this maybe why he has been brought in

(aside how quick can a station be built because i would have thought that was vital for an olympic venue) .

There is no rent saving if CCFC own ACL because the rent paid by CCFC and rent received by ACL contra out in an overall sense. What SISU will be buying is the shares in ACL so yes will take on the debts aswell. However they could make an outright offer for the stadium and not the shares in which case they wont take on existing funding

Football funding does need to be made more equitable .... however there would seem to be little appetite for change with those who hold the power
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
the £ 2.5m is not player aquisitions. IT is the amount by which the cost of the squad has amortised (or depreciated) over the year. Basically the purchase cost of each player is written off over the length of each players contract. There will still be a significant charge in 2010 accounts but yes Bests sale will be reflected too - how much profit we made on him over original cost is anyones guess.

The amortisation should be lower in 2012 accounts ...... we havent bought anyone and a lot of contracts end 31/05/10
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
should read "end 31/05/11"
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
Its got to be a tax dodge anyone agree ?
Sisu put in 30million if they lose this investment they claim it back off the taxman against other uk investments which are making a profit.
If then Sisu put the club into admin anything they get back from a new investor say 20p in the pound against what they are owed would be clear profit. Because the money they already put in they have already laid it off against corporation tax.
Anyone accountant bods agree ?
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I Think SBJ that they needed £8m ..... if that was indeed the figure.... to clear up outstanding debts (VAT PAYE Wages and possibly some utilities - and yes there will be penalties and interest to pay) and to cover similar costs through to 31st May. After that income becomes dire until August and there are no matches what will happen in the summer is worrying.

The ryton payment KD said was due for payment in July

Will SISU add in interest? I dont know and its their choice. But am not expecting the debt to be quite that big is probably £35 to £40 now
 

kapowaz

Well-Known Member
Football funding does need to be made more equitable .... however there would seem to be little appetite for change with those who hold the power

The FA have zero incentive to change things — it's a rich boy's club in there, and some of the crap they come out with defies belief. You know the stuff; the tripe about how ‘Football is in a healthy state in this country’. This after governmental reports show that there are deep-rooted problems with the way football clubs are run etc. etc.

About the only thing that I reckon will get them to listen is widespread protest. The thing is, I'm convinced it's the kind of issue that the majority of fans would get behind (even Man U fans have something to complain about in terms of how their club is run, on a financial basis).
 

Godiva

Well-Known Member
I Think SBJ that they needed £8m ..... if that was indeed the figure.... to clear up outstanding debts (VAT PAYE Wages and possibly some utilities - and yes there will be penalties and interest to pay) and to cover similar costs through to 31st May. After that income becomes dire until August and there are no matches what will happen in the summer is worrying.

The ryton payment KD said was due for payment in July

Will SISU add in interest? I dont know and its their choice. But am not expecting the debt to be quite that big is probably £35 to £40 now

Surely a very large portion was needed to buy RR's shares. Probably around 5mio. The rest I would think was the urgent need to starve off administration. I don't think we are safe for the summer yet. SISU may need to (once again) find extra funds within their own ranks - or maybe the new directors will cough up a few milions.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
I have a feeling that RR's settlement has not been finalised and it might go to legal action. Doubt his shares would carry a value of £5m though, he only had a 16% holding in the shares of the holding company Sky Blue Sports & Leisure Ltd worth £12m on 31/05/09 and had loaned that company £1.5m +. My guess is that it would be between 2 and 3 million in total. But like I said I would not bet on it having been paid to him yet. To be honest I am not sure how much they have put in because I cant find where a board member said it was £8m, in the Press Conference they said only that it was several. It all points to me that there is a decision coming in the early summer as to how they club goes forward. Perhaps they know what is going to happen and are stage managing things for some reason, i really do not know

btw that should read £ 35 to £40 million in my previous post
 

Nonleagueherewecome

Well-Known Member
I have a feeling that RR's settlement has not been finalised and it might go to legal action. Doubt his shares would carry a value of £5m though, he only had a 16% holding in the shares of the holding company Sky Blue Sports & Leisure Ltd worth £12m on 31/05/09 and had loaned that company £1.5m +. My guess is that it would be between 2 and 3 million in total. But like I said I would not bet on it having been paid to him yet. To be honest I am not sure how much they have put in because I cant find where a board member said it was £8m, in the Press Conference they said only that it was several. It all points to me that there is a decision coming in the early summer as to how they club goes forward. Perhaps they know what is going to happen and are stage managing things for some reason, i really do not know

btw that should read £ 35 to £40 million in my previous post

Yes mate, that little bit of perhaps mis-reporting has bugged me throughout. Was it just mis-heard? They said several when pressed over how much it was. Haven't seen or heard 7 or 8m mentioned apart from on here and in a few media bits, but no quotes or attributed source...
 

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