SCG Teleconference with Tim Fisher tonight (11 Viewers)

[oldskyblue58]

ahem...
Doncaster Rovers Chairman John Ryan was so concerned by the plight of the Sky Blues and their current rent position that he approached the club's Directors in the Boardroom before Coventry's recent away match at the Keepmoat Stadium with an offer of moral support a well as full details of the Rovers' new 99 year lease agreed with Doncaster Council, which is dramatically different from the £1 million a year rent Doncaster Rovers paid in the Championship. (Rates were not charged to the club). Both clubs were relegated from the Championship last season.

Why do we get charged rates at all?
it's like being in the boxing ring with Doncaster with one arm tied behind our back!
If Doncaster council don't charge rates to their FC why do Coventry?

imp:

got a feeling it has something to do with the stadium being classed as being used as a community stadium ...... Doncaster base all their community work there I believe. But that is a educated best guess ....... thats the basis sports clubs I deal with make the rates claim

 

---

[PWKH]

PWKH,

Could you clear up something concerning your involvement in the stadium from it's early days?

MFDoom brought up the fact that there was a stadium company, pre-ACL Football Investors Ltd which you were a director of, with Robinson, McGinnity,Hover and Derek Higgs also as directors.

What was the ownership structure and purpose of this?

Were the rent agreements and costs arranged through this company?

Does it still have any involvement at all?

I notice that it is still in place with you as the sole director now?

https://www.duedil.com/company/04315455/football-investors-limited/people

Football Investors Ltd was owned by CCFC and had as its Directors Robinson, McGinnity, Higgs and Hover. In 2003 CCFC sold FIL to the Higgs Charity. The CCFC Directors resigned and I was appointed. FIL is a non-trading company. It only exists to hold shares in ACL. The Charity appointed Higgs and McGinnity to be Directors of ACL. I was appointed as an alternate director as was Hover. When McGinnity resigned ( at the same time he resigned as CCFC Chairman) the Charity just replaced him with me . When Sir Derek died the Charity appointed another Director to ACL: a former chief executive of CCFC, Stuart Rolt. When he resigned Paul Harris was appointed Director of ACL and subsequently a Trustee of the Charity.

All Agreements etc are between ACL and CCFC.

 

[torchomatic]

I don't think that would work really with fans being there. It would be chaos.

Also Mr Fisher asks for mediation, fair enough, so i take it he wouldn't be against an open debate with the other parties attending, forum style perhaps on radio or another venue where the general public can attend and ask questions.

 

[sky blue john]

Grendel - neither KH or me are calling Tim Fisher a liar, all KH has done is report what was said and I have confirmed it. Please do not try and twist what KH has reported in good faith.

Thats exactly how i see it Jan and its up to us to make our own conclusions from the gathered information from trusted sources !!!

 

[Grendel]

Grendel - neither KH or me are calling Tim Fisher a liar, all KH has done is report what was said and I have confirmed it. Please do not try and twist what KH has reported in good faith.

I know you're not. This is all informative stuff. I was referring to sky blue John who is and suggesting that is not the most sensible course of action.

 

[PWKH]

I am sorry but...
There was either a veto or there was not. It is black and white. There was no veto and Sisu have made no contact since writing and signing the heads of terms in June. I think that has to be my last word on the subject as there is nothing that can usefully be added.

 

[Ashdown1]

Of course. Everyone has. Couldn't agree more. This is why some sort of arbitration would probably be a good thing.

I'd agree with arbitration, get it all in the open and find out who is really playing games, who wants the club to profit from their own footfall and input into the arena and what are the long term goals from both the hedge fund and the council. I suspect both have bullshitted and both would not be completely open and honest though.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

ahem...
Doncaster Rovers Chairman John Ryan was so concerned by the plight of the Sky Blues and their current rent position that he approached the club's Directors in the Boardroom before Coventry's recent away match at the Keepmoat Stadium with an offer of moral support a well as full details of the Rovers' new 99 year lease agreed with Doncaster Council, which is dramatically different from the £1 million a year rent Doncaster Rovers paid in the Championship. (Rates were not charged to the club). Both clubs were relegated from the Championship last season.

Why do we get charged rates at all?
it's like being in the boxing ring with Doncaster with one arm tied behind our back!
If Doncaster council don't charge rates to their FC why do Coventry?

imp:

That is their contract, and ours is ours.

If our owners want to change that, they need to do so via the vehicle of lawful, honest and open negotiation.

They do not appear to be evidencing all of the above, and in order to get the best deal possible, and seemingly using OUR football club as prime bargaining chip. That's what I hate. Surely you can see that?!?

 

[Grendel]

Thats exactly how i see it Jan and its up to us to make our own conclusions from the gathered information from trusted sources !!!

I am sure fishers libel lawyer has already made his mind up about your previous post.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Can we be clear what we are asking for ......

TF wants mediation ....... which could be a long drawn out process that attempts to find a compromise

arbitration is a process where someone independent looks at the available info, arguments and decides the solution ........ TF is not suggesting this

 

[Ashdown1]

Can we be clear what we are asking for ......

TF wants mediation ....... which could be a long drawn out process that attempts to find a compromise

arbitration is a process where someone independent looks at the available info, arguments and decides the solution ........ TF is not suggesting this

Which would again suggest that the real SISU goals are to continue to avoid payment altogether and starve ACL of funds?

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I am sure fishers libel lawyer has already made his mind up about your previous post.

The very same lawyer would ahve to set about proving whether it was a lie or not; and I very much suggest that such a course of action might now be necessary in any case

 

[ashbyjan]

Problem is that even if both sides do agree to mediation or arbitration then that would more than likely still be conducted behind closed doors and we would be no the wiser. A mediator would only be a referee and both sides can continue to argue, spin and bullshit to their hearts content but an agreement has to be reached by the two parties not the mediator. An arbitrator would listen to the arguments from both sides and come up with a "judgement" that both sides would "have" to abide by.

In all honesty cannot see any real benefit to mediation as it could still roll on and on for ever nor could I see either side agreeing to arbitration as both would not wish to relinquish control of the outcome. Bet they wouldn't even agree who would pay for the mediator/arbitrator or would spend a year arguing over who it should be.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Can we be clear what we are asking for ......

TF wants mediation ....... which could be a long drawn out process that attempts to find a compromise

arbitration is a process where someone independent looks at the available info, arguments and decides the solution ........ TF is not suggesting this

Correct, and as I pointed out the other day, such a lengthy process will do nothing more than defer agreement, and until such time, the arrears accrue at the higher rental rate - thereby increasing the magnitude of one of the negotiation's largest stumbling blocks.

Hence my question with regards Fisher clarifying exactly the first time they have suggested this avenue

 

[CJparker]

ACL should just end the argument - proceed to a winding up petition, then we'll see the whites of SISU's eyes. Hopefully this risky game will end with CCFC surviving in non-SISU hands and with SISU out of our lives for good.

 

[ashbyjan]

Last night Tim Fisher did state he had asked ACL for mediation but only during a radio broadcast and on the clubs website, no direct request made to ACL with terms of reference or anything like that. I believe when Linnell pressed him on the radio on Saturday about abiding by any third party decision he avoided giving an answer - maybe someone could confirm that.

 

[grego_gee]

got a feeling it has something to do with the stadium being classed as being used as a community stadium ...... Doncaster base all their community work there I believe. But that is a educated best guess ....... thats the basis sports clubs I deal with make the rates claim

TY OSB, Is there a big difference between the contribution that Doncaster FC and CCFC make to the community? Surely the difference is in the sentiment coming from DCC and CCC. Doncaster CC must have wanted to support DFC and have taken very significant steps to improve the arrangement for the club! rates is just one.
a point by point comparison of the Doncaster arrangement would leave us with several arms tied behind the back!

http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-261212-559871.aspx



imp:

 

[skyblueman]

To my mind Tim Fisher has zero credibility - he should just go, he's an embarassment

 

[oldskyblue58]

TY OSB, Is there a big difference between the contribution that Doncaster FC and CCFC make to the community? Surely the difference is in the sentiment coming from DCC and CCC. Doncaster CC must have wanted to support DFC and have taken very significant steps to improve the arrangement for the club! rates is just one.
a point by point comparison of the Doncaster arrangement would leave us with several arms tied behind the back!

http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/club-statement-261212-559871.aspx



imp:

Think it is more to do with where that community project is delivered grego gee. I understand events etc are based round the Keepmoat but CCFC's is based around the Alan Higgs Centre and other places. So Doncaster can prove the stadium is used for the community, not so easy for CCFC to do that

In respect of Doncaster there are other articles that indicate that the council were not making money on the stadium and has passed a lot of cost on to the club. Like at CCFC the truth is probably somewhere of the middle of what is being said in the press

 

[torchomatic]

Or it could just be a process that attempts to find a compromise that both sides are happy with?

Which would again suggest that the real SISU goals are to continue to avoid payment altogether and starve ACL of funds?

 

[torchomatic]

Hopefully? What if it doesn't end up nicely for Coventry City.

Job done?

ACL should just end the argument - proceed to a winding up petition, then we'll see the whites of SISU's eyes. Hopefully this risky game will end with CCFC surviving in non-SISU hands and with SISU out of our lives for good.

 

[grego_gee]

Last night Tim Fisher did state he had asked ACL for mediation but only during a radio broadcast and on the clubs website, no direct request made to ACL with terms of reference or anything like that. I believe when Linnell pressed him on the radio on Saturday about abiding by any third party decision he avoided giving an answer - maybe someone could confirm that.

Isn't that the difference between mediation and arbitration. my understanding (before reaching for the dictionary) is the former is not binding on either party the latter is.

imp:

 

[sky blue john]

I am sure fishers libel lawyer has already made his mind up about your previous post.

How can the man embaress himself and the support of yourself any more than he has already !!!

 

[ashbyjan]

Or it could just be a process that attempts to find a compromise that both sides are happy with?

I think this whole thing has become so acrimonious that when (please let that be soon) an agreement is finally reached I doubt either side will be happy

 

[ashbyjan]

Isn't that the difference between mediation and arbitration. my understanding (before reaching for the dictionary) is the former is not binding on either party the latter is.

imp:

Your right which is probably why he didn't wish to be drawn on it

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I think this whole thing has become so acrimonious that when (please let that be soon) an agreement is finally reached I doubt either side will be happy

Ashbyjan, we all crave for an agreement, would you say this process would be worth it if an agreement favourable to CCFC is agreed?

 

[skyblueman]

Ashbyjan, we all crave for an agreement, would you say this process would be worth it if an agreement favourable to CCFC is agreed?

When this is finalised and surely it has to be before long I think Fisher will be asked by Sisu to fall on his sword so a new guy can come in and deal with ACL etc - so much bad feeling and miss-trust has been generated by this entire fiasco under Fisher that I can't see any other way forward for the club with him remaining at the helm

 

[oldskyblue58]

isnt it a question of degree of favourability SBT ........... the amount of rent in L1 seems to have been accepted by both sides ?

really all that mediation is, is a referee that tries to keep things civil. Are not all successful contract negotiations all about successful mediation (just no referee)

 

[grego_gee]

Your right which is probably why he didn't wish to be drawn on it

He is entitled to not be drawn on anything further than what he proposed! He proposed mediation why should he be drawn on arbitration? I don't see anything wrong with that!

imp:

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

When this is finalised and surely it has to be before long I think Fisher will be asked by Sisu to fall on his sword so a new guy can come in and deal with ACL etc - so much bad feeling and miss-trust has been generated by this entire fiasco under Fisher that I can't see any other way forward for the club with him remaining at the helm

I don't think that is the case to be honest. I isn't just Fisher they have a problem with, it's also SISU.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Well, with such differing accounts I think that the parties involved appear to be adversarial. Surely they ought to be agreeing upon a joint statement before any meeting closes and then maintaining that position at all costs - not embellishing, or disputing, or confirming or speculating - & certainly not slinging accusations in various directions?
Whilst I dispute no accounts from any party...I think it is currently a case of "MUD! Mud...glorious mud!"

 

[grego_gee]

isnt it a question of degree of favourability SBT ........... the amount of rent in L1 seems to have been accepted by both sides ?

really all that mediation is, is a referee that tries to keep things civil. Are not all successful contract negotiations all about successful mediation (just no referee)

Actually TF is doing more than seek mediation - he is suggesting a specific mediator with particular knowledge of football finances. Deloites? to help get over their specific problems that perhaps are difficult to get over to ACL or the Council.
Of course ACL could ignor this request and simply press on for their pound of flesh! but I hope they accept this and try to understand the problems better, after all its not binding on either side.

imp:

 

[Wrenstreetcarpark]

"MUD! Mud...glorious mud!"
nothing quite like it for cooling the blood...

the mud doesn't seem to be working!

 

[Ashdown1]

I think things would all be a bit less bitter and more open to dialogue if SISU had at least paid what THEY consider to be a fair rent. The acrimony continues and the suspicion grows with their refusal to pay anything !

 

[oldskyblue58]

Actually TF is doing more than seek mediation - he is suggesting a specific mediator with particular knowledge of football finances. Deloites? to help get over their specific problems that perhaps are difficult to get over to ACL or the Council.
Of course ACL could ignor this request and simply press on for their pound of flesh! but I hope they accept this and try to understand the problems better, after all its not binding on either side.

imp:

yes he is making that suggestion. Personally I would go for someone who has been entirely independent in all this. Deloittes, they have the expertise certainly but were involved in the negotiations involving Yorkshire bank and may well already have close links to both parties. They are not the only major firm of accountants that could do this though. I would perhaps approach someone like one of the football finance academics we have heard on CWR - they will have very good football finance knowledge but no link to the club

But there we have the first problem dont we, even if it is agreed to be done ......by who?