SCG Teleconference with Tim Fisher tonight (2 Viewers)

[rupert_bear]

Yes, and the £150k stated by the council/ACL is inaccurate and misleading.

According to Tim Fisher

 

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[Godiva]

It is not for the shareholders to interfere in the running of a company in which they hold shares. All they can do is appoint directors to try to make the company as successful as possible. The shareholder's remedies are either to remove the directors or to sell their shares if they feel it is not going the way they want.

I understand this - actually this is what I have said for many years in regards to sisu and the club under Ransons chairmanship.

Still, I am sure Higgs have appointed boardmembers at ACL and are operating under 'advice' from Higgs.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Thanks for the up date Kingharvest

Clearly TF has given his own interpretation of where things are ................. which is to be welcomed ....... but I think we need to keep an open mind as to whether it is the "truth". I am sure some of it is truth, but equally sure parts of it are spin............. as with the majority of the statements issued on all sides.

Just to be clear though a heads of agreement do not represent a contract, it sets out the general terms under which a contract could be drawn up if certain terms in the Heads of Agreement are met.......and therefore the council actually had nothing to consider or veto in respect of any deal with the Charity.............. at the stage they were at the Council had no say at all.

Of course things like statutory demands and third party debtor orders put strain on a defaulting entity that is the whole point isn't it? But has the statutory order been paid? Also to clarify the bank account has not been frozen by ACL, the amounts in that account that were there on the day the order was served have..... a bit different. It is like saying a minimum amount must be kept in the account. Anything banked the following day is not affected, and of course there are other bank accounts that SISU can use to bank and pay out. It will cause inconvenience yes but is only a problem if SISU refuse to cover any cashflow blip.

Seems a rent of £400k in L1 has been agreed. Thats good.

The food and drink, I cant see it is the turnover amount that is a problem as such, because if you think about it that is actually dependent how many people are in the stadium. As such what happened in the past is not that relevant if the club gets all that turnover now. If you think about it those figures are low now because of the clubs failure....... are we saying that if club successful and that income increases under CCFC's ownership of them that they will give some back ? Dont think so. The sticking point I would have thought would be the cost of supply and how it becomes CCFC's turnover not part of the joint venture with Compass

The rates well it kind of depends if it is paid through ACL or direct to the council..... at moment it is just an appeal, doesnt mean it will be successful and will depend on proving the club activities at the Ricoh are those of a community club or that the club do not have first call on the stadium 365 days of the year or that the rateable value is too high(which should be easy to prove if rent now dropped to £400k because rateable value is based on rent paid) Also any refund subject to a third party debtor order

Would be interesting to compare TF's points against say those of ACL on the same points wouldnt it

But thanks again for the info Kingharvest .... the more info the better

 

[lordsummerisle]

Kingharvest wrote that it had been said by Fisher that the Council had vetoed the sale of the shares in ACL owned by the Charity to Sisu. If he has reported this accurately it is a completely untrue statement by Fisher.

As Clerk to the Trustees I handle all the documents between the Charity and any other party on every matter. There was indeed an agreed heads of terms between Sisu and the Charity signed in June of last year. Since writing and signing it Sisu has made absolutely no contact with the Charity. The City Council has not used the veto to stop any deal at any time. Any statement to the contrary is misleading and mischievous.

Fisher has made a large number of statements over recent days which can be taken up by others. When something false is said about the Charity it will be dealt with through this and other means, the Charity reserves all its rights.

PWKH,

Could you clear up something concerning your involvement in the stadium from it's early days?

MFDoom brought up the fact that there was a stadium company, pre-ACL Football Investors Ltd which you were a director of, with Robinson, McGinnity,Hover and Derek Higgs also as directors.

What was the ownership structure and purpose of this?

Were the rent agreements and costs arranged through this company?

Does it still have any involvement at all?

I notice that it is still in place with you as the sole director now?

https://www.duedil.com/company/04315455/football-investors-limited/people

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

The gone bust thing is a weird one isn't it. I meant to bring that up last night but we ran out of time and there was alot to get through. I wonder whether it was an implied statement, as in, they were no longer viable. His choice of words is so volatile though.

He is paid not to choose the wrong words though. That's the point. Lest it antagonises the other party and moves both parties further away from solution

 

[oldskyblue58]

also the lease breaks, new detail ....... makes sense, I would want them too ............. why wasnt it already there:facepalm:

However there is a misconception going on here........ the lease isnt being re negotiated the amount of rent is ......... there is a difference. ACL as landlord doesnt have to agree to that change ....... but is it a real deal breaker given that TF states he wants CCFC to be at the Ricoh and that ACL repeatedly say the same........ yes it gives an option but ?

 

[Godiva]

The bit about TF telling the SCG that the council veto'ed a sell of the Higgs shares being disputed by a Higgs employee calls for immidiate action.
Either SGC misunderstood or TF lied.
If TF lied all trust is broken and the SCG should consider if their meetings with the club has any value.
If SCG misunderstood a clarification is needed.

 

[lordsummerisle]

And one final one, Grendel, history - though you're happy to bury it - is often a fine litmus-test for future events, queue reference to the London Evening Standard dated 24 October 2007 at the point in time SISU were looking at buying Southampton (having already been laughed out of court at Manchester City, Aston Villa and Derby). Any of this appear familiar behaviour?:



:thinking about:

Think it was Sisu laughed out of court(with Ranson) with southampton, but Ranson managed to be laughed out of court all on his own with the others.

Still, many strange people want him back as he's some sort of business genius apparently.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

Think it was Sisu laughed out of court(with Ranson) with southampton, but Ranson managed to be laughed out of court all on his own with the others.

Still, many strange people want him back as he's some sort of business genius apparently.

I don't subscribe to his coronation in such a manner. I equally don't make great differential between any of the front-men SISU have foisted upon us; as the primary controller has remained constant, and I presume the same legal team and probably investors too. It's window-dressing. Some are better than others, but it's a common machine lurking behind the facade

 

[Skybluestu82]

Does anybody know where all these problems leave us with the potential new shirt sponsors?

Surely no business would be wanting to join in this fiasco or pay money to Ccfc with its accounts frozen.

Did TF mention any of this?

 

[oldskyblue58]

The bit about TF telling the SCG that the council veto'ed a sell of the Higgs shares being disputed by a Higgs employee calls for immidiate action.
Either SGC misunderstood or TF lied.
If TF lied all trust is broken and the SCG should consider if their meetings with the club has any value.
If SCG misunderstood a clarification is needed.

Might find that linked with action concerning claims that ACL went bust that TF made....... Whether or not they were struggling we dont know but nothing has ever been filed regarding administration, liquidation, and the doors never shut because it was no longer a going concern.

I think people need to be careful with there public statements verbal or otherwise

 

[oldskyblue58]

Does anybody know where all these problems leave us with the potential new shirt sponsors?

Surely no business would be wanting to join in this fiasco or pay money to Ccfc with its accounts frozen.

Did TF mention any of this?

i would guess that any future sponsorship contracts or long term income sources are under threat until such time as this whole matter is agreed, and the club files up to date financials. Certainly if I was looking to invest significant money I would want all that and also details of the current situation and of budgets & forecasts

 

[torchomatic]

I would love to know WHO came up with the figure of £1.28M a year for rent. I would also like to know who - on behalf of the club - agreed to such a figure. Surely, it couldn't have been PWKH and the others as there would be come conflict of interest, wouldn't there?

PWKH,

Could you clear up something concerning your involvement in the stadium from it's early days?

MFDoom brought up the fact that there was a stadium company, pre-ACL Football Investors Ltd which you were a director of, with Robinson, McGinnity,Hover and Derek Higgs also as directors.

What was the ownership structure and purpose of this?

Were the rent agreements and costs arranged through this company?

Does it still have any involvement at all?

I notice that it is still in place with you as the sole director now?

https://www.duedil.com/company/04315455/football-investors-limited/people

 

[kingharvest]

OSB - is it definitely a Joint Venture with Compass?

Thanks for the clarification around the Frozen accounts.

I think the thing about the veto by the council is interesting. Given Tims choice of words about ACL going bust, i wonder if this veto is an implied or informal veto as well. In that the councils position was made clear to them so there was no point continuing negotiations with the Higgs. Again - i'm only speculating, we'll probably never know the answer to that.

 

[sky blue john]

The bit about TF telling the SCG that the council veto'ed a sell of the Higgs shares being disputed by a Higgs employee calls for immidiate action.
Either SGC misunderstood or TF lied.
If TF lied all trust is broken and the SCG should consider if their meetings with the club has any value.
If SCG misunderstood a clarification is needed.

This has been proved a lie from TF on this thread by PWKH, jan & kings harvest. So how much more of his statements are lies ?
There are a lot on here try to use TFs statements as facts that should be slightly embarresed by this !!!
For me though TFs statements have always been bullshit hot air followed by no actions.
At the end of the day none of us know what Sisu are really up to and there future plans which concerns me greatly because they are in charge of my club !!!!

 

[Godiva]

Might find that linked with action concerning claims that ACL went bust that TF made....... Whether or not they were struggling we dont know but nothing has ever been filed regarding administration, liquidation, and the doors never shut because it was no longer a going concern.

I think people need to be careful with there public statements verbal or otherwise

I don't remember TF saying anything more than ACL were in trouble and that Deloitte was called in and YB were considering the mortgage. Later the council bailed out ACL, so to my knowledge TF were not telling lies there.

But he may have this time, and if so he has a lot of explaining and spinning to do. It won't help much though.
So for everybody's sake, we really need to know if he lied or was misunderstood.

 

[ashbyjan]

Couple of Points
1. In my opinion the assertion by Martin Reeves (I think it was) on CWR that the rent was £150k was misleading and unhelpful in getting the actual facts out there - I have outlined how this number has been reached but to call it rent is inaccurate. In fact the only two parts that are uner ACL control are the rent itself £400k and the F & B to the club approx £100k (obviously depends on attendences and sales) The rates rebate is not under ACL control in fact I don't think its under council control either it by a government body called the Valuation Office Agency and these rates are based on the the rateable value of your property and the rating multiplier (also known as the rate poundage). Maybe OSB or someone with more knowledge on these matters than me can confirm?

2. To back King Harvest up Tim Fisher did clearly say that the deal for purchasing the Higgs Charity shares was scuppered by the council for political reasons - not wanting to do a deal with a hedge fund and when asked who in the council had made that decision he said something like "one of the polit bureaus" KH correct me if I have that wrong please.

 

[Godiva]

This has been proved a lie from TF on this thread by PWKH, jan & kings harvest. So how much more of his statements are lies ?
There are a lot on here try to use TFs statements as facts that should be slightly embarresed by this !!!
For me though TFs statements have always been bullshit hot air followed by no actions.
At the end of the day none of us know what Sisu are really up to and there future plans which concerns me greatly because they are in charge of my club !!!!

There are no proof of anything.
One part has said something. Another part has said 'not true'.
We don't yet know who is telling the truth.

 

[oldskyblue58]

OSB - is it definitely a Joint Venture with Compass?

Thanks for the clarification around the Frozen accounts.

I think the thing about the veto by the council is interesting. Given Tims choice of words about ACL going bust, i wonder if this veto is an implied or informal veto as well. In that the councils position was made clear to them so there was no point continuing negotiations with the Higgs. Again - i'm only speculating, we'll probably never know the answer to that.

Yes it is kingharvest - acl have a joint venture company with compass that does all the staffing etc

Bottom line about the veto is that there has to be something to veto - heads of terms are not it. Why would the Charity spend precious money going through all the due diligence etc if there wasnt the intention or ability to sell?

 

[lordsummerisle]

I would love to know WHO came up with the figure of £1.28M a year for rent. I would also like to know who - on behalf of the club - agreed to such a figure. Surely, it couldn't have been PWKH and the others as there would be come conflict of interest, wouldn't there?

That's exactly why i've asked the question, anything with Robinson's, McGinnity's and Hover's paws on it raises questions for me.

As far as i know none of the above post on this forum, so best to ask the only one out of them who does(and is the sole Director of the company now).

 

[ashbyjan]

The JV with Compass is a company called EIC, owned by ACL and Compass, which together they run the catering and share the profits. I am not sure what the profits split is but the Trust are trying to get clarification. ACL have offered the club their share of the profits, obviously they cannot give away Compasses share.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don't remember TF saying anything more than ACL were in trouble and that Deloitte was called in and YB were considering the mortgage. Later the council bailed out ACL, so to my knowledge TF were not telling lies there.

But he may have this time, and if so he has a lot of explaining and spinning to do. It won't help much though.
So for everybody's sake, we really need to know if he lied or was misunderstood.

he made the claims of ACL going bust on CWR last weekend Godiva.... doesnt matter when as such, only that he did

Would be hard for someone who regularly deals with distressed businesses as a profession to claim he "misunderstood"

 

[Grendel]

This has been proved a lie from TF on this thread by PWKH, jan & kings harvest. So how much more of his statements are lies ?
There are a lot on here try to use TFs statements as facts that should be slightly embarresed by this !!!
For me though TFs statements have always been bullshit hot air followed by no actions.
At the end of the day none of us know what Sisu are really up to and there future plans which concerns me greatly because they are in charge of my club !!!!

I'd be careful about calling people liars if I were you.

 

[ashbyjan]

As the Trust understands it the rent figure was agreed on behalf of the club by McGinnity. He was at the time offered a deal based on attendences but had the view that we would be filling the stadium and the club would be better off with a flat rate - oh hindsight is a fickle mistress

 

[torchomatic]

One day last week - Friday I think - I was all over the County for work and was listening to CWR. I lost count of the amount of times Bob Brolley and his texters were moaning that SISU should do the deal as the rent was now £150K. It was misleading. And this is why I fell that really neither side can be trusted. It's all the sniping in the press on both sides that has caused a bad situation to get even worse.

Couple of Points
1. In my opinion the assertion by Martin Reeves (I think it was) on CWR that the rent was £150k was misleading and unhelpful in getting the actual facts out there - I have outlined how this number has been reached but to call it rent is inaccurate. In fact the only two parts that are uner ACL control are the rent itself £400k and the F & B to the club approx £100k (obviously depends on attendences and sales) The rates rebate is not under ACL control in fact I don't think its under council control either it by a government body called the Valuation Office Agency and these rates are based on the the rateable value of your property and the rating multiplier (also known as the rate poundage). Maybe OSB or someone with more knowledge on these matters than me can confirm?

2. To back King Harvest up Tim Fisher did clearly say that the deal for purchasing the Higgs Charity shares was scuppered by the council for political reasons - not wanting to do a deal with a hedge fund and when asked who in the council had made that decision he said something like "one of the polit bureaus" KH correct me if I have that wrong please.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Couple of Points
1. In my opinion the assertion by Martin Reeves (I think it was) on CWR that the rent was £150k was misleading and unhelpful in getting the actual facts out there - I have outlined how this number has been reached but to call it rent is inaccurate. In fact the only two parts that are uner ACL control are the rent itself £400k and the F & B to the club approx £100k (obviously depends on attendences and sales) The rates rebate is not under ACL control in fact I don't think its under council control either it by a government body called the Valuation Office Agency and these rates are based on the the rateable value of your property and the rating multiplier (also known as the rate poundage). Maybe OSB or someone with more knowledge on these matters than me can confirm?

sounds right to me jan

 

[sky blue john]

There are no proof of anything.
One part has said something. Another part has said 'not true'.
We don't yet know who is telling the truth.

So who are you claiming to be lying PWKH, jan or Kings Harvest.
To me PWKH has always been accurate and informative on this site. And Jan and Kings Harvest information they both have seems to tie up !!!!

 

[torchomatic]

And what about the comment from Reeves that the rent is £150K. Is that true?

This has been proved a lie from TF on this thread by PWKH, jan & kings harvest. So how much more of his statements are lies ?
There are a lot on here try to use TFs statements as facts that should be slightly embarresed by this !!!
For me though TFs statements have always been bullshit hot air followed by no actions.
At the end of the day none of us know what Sisu are really up to and there future plans which concerns me greatly because they are in charge of my club !!!!

 

[grego_gee]

So they have been overcharging anyway. Brilliant.

ahem...
Doncaster Rovers Chairman John Ryan was so concerned by the plight of the Sky Blues and their current rent position that he approached the club's Directors in the Boardroom before Coventry's recent away match at the Keepmoat Stadium with an offer of moral support a well as full details of the Rovers' new 99 year lease agreed with Doncaster Council, which is dramatically different from the £1 million a year rent Doncaster Rovers paid in the Championship. (Rates were not charged to the club). Both clubs were relegated from the Championship last season.

Why do we get charged rates at all?
it's like being in the boxing ring with Doncaster with one arm tied behind our back!
If Doncaster council don't charge rates to their FC why do Coventry?

imp:

 

[Grendel]

So who are you claiming to be lying PWKH, jan or Kings Harvest.
To me PWKH has always been accurate and informative on this site. And Jan and Kings Harvest information they both have seems to tie up !!!!

So fisher is a liar then?

 

[ashbyjan]

Just for once I agree with you Torchy After such a momentous event maybe we will win tonight!!!!!

Both sides are guilty of levels of spin and unhelpful "facts" that seem designed to confuse and muddy the water - I am just waiting for one side or the other to state "My Dad's bigger than your Dad and he's going to come round tonight"

 

[skybluesam66]

pwkh may be 100% honest - but he also has an agenda . Its not always black and white

 

[rupert_bear]

Can anyone join this SCG group ? anyone can join the Trust for just a quid, go to the Squirrell and attend a meeting. There's a number on here who might ask more , searching questions.
Also Mr Fisher asks for mediation, fair enough, so i take it he wouldn't be against an open debate with the other parties attending, forum style perhaps on radio or another venue where the general public can attend and ask questions.

 

[ashbyjan]

Grendel - neither KH or me are calling Tim Fisher a liar, all KH has done is report what was said and I have confirmed it. Please do not try and twist what KH has reported in good faith.

 

[torchomatic]

Of course. Everyone has. Couldn't agree more. This is why some sort of arbitration would probably be a good thing.

pwkh may be 100% honest - but he also has an agenda . Its not always black and white