Fridays outcome? (4 Viewers)

[BrisbaneBronco]

It is an odd position to have I must admit. I doubt many that support the ACL position would support eviction of the club should ACL lose in court. People who support ACL's actions take the view they are working ultimately in the best interests of the club by trying to prevent liquidation. 'Changing the locks' would result in exactly that scenario, so it won't happen. Should they lose I don't expect a knee-jerk reaction from ACL, it would be self-defeating.

The landlord/house tenant analogy doesn't really work either because in that instance, the landlord could move in a new tenant. ACL do not have that option.

I just hope ACL know what they are doing, because this could all end very badly. As this point, I'm not altogether sure what I want the outcome to be. Still trying to figure out what the least worst case is.

Best option is that nothing happens on Friday and that things get delayed until the end of the season.
If we get promoted, then things could change dramatically.
Still in the minority of 1, according to another poster, and predicting a SISU win.
Why?, because, they would have been in similar positions before, admittedly, not football related, but same law applies.

 

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[coundonskyblue]

housing rent is dictated by the market and what everyone else is paying.

Basically supply and demand.

Here there is only one realistic supplier, and only one realistic demander.

A deal needs to be done that is benefical to both ACL and CCFC, but references to what Hull or Doncaster pay is irrelevent.

 

[oldskyblue58]

SISU have been in similar positions but not the same position before BB ......... it isn't the directors of either company in court it is the specialists that each side have brought in that are.

Having been involved in potential court battles before I was always told the odds on outcome at best is only ever 50:50...... if it were clear cut you wouldn't be in court

 

[blueflint]

the landlord could move in a new tenant. ACL do not have that option.

they dont need to they could put more concerts on and they will be quids in

 

[grego_gee]

I won't celebrate that, but if SISU leave it will be time to crack open the champers!!:claping hands:

Wrong!....
I suggest you change that to "if another investor, better than SISU, comes in it will be time to crack open the champers!!"


....... and don't hold your breath!!

SISU dumping us won't improve anything!
imp:

 

[theferret]

the landlord could move in a new tenant. ACL do not have that option.

they dont need to they could put more concerts on and they will be quids in

What concerts? Only about 3 or 4 music acts do summer stadium tours anyway. Wembley Stadium has 3 summer gigs this year, the Ricoh has two and the Millennium Stadium has two.

There is scope for more indoor gigs in the hall, but there is nothing to stop them doing that now.

I take the view ACL could not feasibly survive without the club long term, others take a different view and maintain that they could - but even they concede it would need investment in facilities to achieve that.

I agree entirely with the point made by coundon about supply and demand.

 

[blueflint]

SISU dumping us won't improve anything!


why not fail to see how we could do any worse.they have sold or mortgaged every asset we had players ryton etc.

 

[grego_gee]

SISU have been in similar positions but not the same position before BB ......... it isn't the directors of either company in court it is the specialists that each side have brought in that are.

Having been involved in potential court battles before I was always told the odds on outcome at best is only ever 50:50...... if it were clear cut you wouldn't be in court

I don't think SISU would like 50:50.
Is is possible that SISU's first action might be to usurp ACL's action by claiming for the AVRO debt, and making AVRO the prime creditor?

imp:

 

[blueflint]

ferret i can only agree to disagree on that one as many musicians given the chance to play a big venue all year round not just summer would only be too happy to accept

 

[shropshirecov]

renting a house off the council is usually cheaper....and you'll have the option to buy it dirt cheap.

 

[theferret]

ferret i can only agree to disagree on that one as many musicians given the chance to play a big venue all year round not just summer would only be too happy to accept

And I maintain that it is fantasy. Open air concerts don't happen in the winter for obvious reasons.

The Millennium Stadium, which is vacant pretty much every day of the year and has a roof you can close, has still only attracted two music acts in 2013.

Edit: I should add though that I think the Ricoh has big potential in other areas and is currently underused. However, to say that they can compensate for the loss of the football club by staging more concerts is what I am disagreeing with.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Wrong!....
I suggest you change that to "if another investor, better than SISU, comes in it will be time to crack open the champers!!"


....... and don't hold your breath!!

SISU dumping us won't improve anything!
imp:

It's sad but some people don't care what happens to the club as long as they see the back of SISU, fortunately these are the minority

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don't think SISU would like 50:50.
Is is possible that SISU's first action might be to usurp ACL's action by claiming for the AVRO debt, and making AVRO the prime creditor?

imp:

Got to remember grego_gee that SISU are not used to losing even when odds are against...... i dont think those 50:50 odds would phase them. Plus they are the defendant of the petition so had no real choice on the timing.

Not sure what difference basing action on ARVo would do. They are already a major creditor (probably 2nd largest behind SISU investors) of the Group and unlike ACl secured.

 

[CJparker]

Anyone applauding that we go into Admin needs there heads testing..

Also CJ you are really willing too see SISU leave at any cost, you should be ashamed..

Well, not at "any cost" - I genuinely believe that CCFC folding will not happen. I would steadfastly oppose us folding as an option, obviously. But anything short of that, to get SISU out, I do support. And I'm not ashamed of that. They have fouled up our club.

 

[CJparker]

Except CJ has just said he wants ACL to evict the club from the ground if the club win the case on Friday

Some of our 'fans' are unbelievable

Well I for one am prepared to match talk with action - if you support ACL dislodging SISU, then you should support their actions in making it happen. I for one am not squeamish because I do not think there is a cat's chance in hell of us folding in any realistic circumstance.

Anything that will add to the pressure on SISU has to be supported, IMO

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Well, not at "any cost" - I genuinely believe that CCFC folding will not happen. I would steadfastly oppose us folding as an option, obviously. But anything short of that, to get SISU out, I do support. And I'm not ashamed of that. They have fouled up our club.

Yet what is too say a suitable buyer in this economic climate is lying in wait ready to pounce and push us forward? CCFC may not fold and no one wants that, but that certainly isn't solely at the blame of SISU..

Perhaps SISU will be forced out but it will be interesting too see if you are saying the same things about the next owners should there be any and if CCFC is better off.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

And I maintain that it is fantasy. Open air concerts don't happen in the winter for obvious reasons.

The Millennium Stadium, which is vacant pretty much every day of the year and has a roof you can close, has still only attracted two music acts in 2013.

Edit: I should add though that I think the Ricoh has big potential in other areas and is currently underused. However, to say that they can compensate for the loss of the football club by staging more concerts is what I am disagreeing with.

Living not far from Cardiff, I think I know a little more than you do mate!
Millenium Stadium is the host to many attractions throughout the year.
World Speedway, Monster Truck events, World Moto x, World Moto Trial(Don't know what it's official title is) but the one where the bikers do stunts over rocks, oil drums, and the like.
FIM British speedway, Bruce Springsteen, Rhianna, Rugby League World Cup in 2013:wave:

 

[shropshirecov]

Living not far from Cardiff, I think I know a little more than you do mate!
Millenium Stadium is the host to many attractions throughout the year.
World Speedway, Monster Truck events, World Moto x, World Moto Trial(Don't know what it's official title is) but the one where the bikers do stunts over rocks, oil drums, and the like.
FIM British speedway, Bruce Springsteen, Rhianna, Rugby League World Cup in 2013:wave:

comparing apples and pears

 

[grego_gee]

Got to remember grego_gee that SISU are not used to losing even when odds are against...... i dont think those 50:50 odds would phase them. Plus they are the defendant of the petition so had no real choice on the timing.

Not sure what difference basing action on ARVo would do. They are already a major creditor (probably 2nd largest behind SISU investors) of the Group and unlike ACl secured.

I'm just thinking it would put them more in the driving seat rather than ACL...
did you see my reply on the other thread?

re-quoting:
The other side to it, is - Do SISU want administration?
I think they may have been preparing for it for some time.
They may be relative beginners in football ownership, but this is their forté, and maybe their ace up the sleeve.
I think they may be ready to purchase it back from the administrator and come out without any onerous rent deal obligations.
I don't think ACL petitioning for it would be a particular problem for them, and it might actually have been their plan, for PR reasons.
The problem is TIMING, I think SISU would have left us in until our chance of making the playoffs had gone by.
Last week I thought that chance had gone, but I now think I had miscalculated and we could still overhaul Bournemouth (but loss of Clarke & now Baker makes it less likely).
I think ACL have just played into SISU's hands but at this moment in time SISU won't be sure which way to jump!

imp:

 

[Grendel]

Living not far from Cardiff, I think I know a little more than you do mate!
Millenium Stadium is the host to many attractions throughout the year.
World Speedway, Monster Truck events, World Moto x, World Moto Trial(Don't know what it's official title is) but the one where the bikers do stunts over rocks, oil drums, and the like.
FIM British speedway, Bruce Springsteen, Rhianna, Rugby League World Cup in 2013:wave:

So what? That's a pointless comparison.

 

[SkyBlue_Bear83]

Well I for one am prepared to match talk with action - if you support ACL dislodging SISU, then you should support their actions in making it happen. I for one am not squeamish because I do not think there is a cat's chance in hell of us folding in any realistic circumstance.

Anything that will add to the pressure on SISU has to be supported, IMO

Yea and I find it very upsetting that people would support any action against the owners regardless of the consequences for the club.

I dont think we will cease to exist either but an administration could lead to a 15 point deduction next season and see the squad ripped apart, which in turn could relegate us to league 2 and we may never recover from that, that may not happen but I couldn't support an action which may lead to the above scenario regardless of what they were trying to achieve

 

[WillieStanley]

You know what? It's quite scary that we have fans advocating eviction. You do realise that this would leave us unable to fulfil our league obligations for the rest of the season which would mean expulsion from the football league. Who would that leave to take us over? We have 3 home games left - Is it worth it? Of course not.

People should think about what they are saying - eviction from the Ricoh is equal to insolvancy/liquidation. I thought even the ACL protagontists were smarter than that??!!

 

[ohitsaidwalker king power]

Thanks OSB as ever your detailed take on things is much appreciated.
So if as I also suspect the legal wrangling's will not be concluded on Friday what are the scenarios re possible outcomes after that date in terms of points deduction.
Somewhat hypothesising I know but say > 28th March CCFC are placed into Admin is our projected 10/15pts deduction enforced this season or next season(whatever the division)?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I'm just thinking it would put them more in the driving seat rather than ACL...
did you see my reply on the other thread?

re-quoting:
The other side to it, is - Do SISU want administration?
I think they may have been preparing for it for some time.
They may be relative beginners in football ownership, but this is their forté, and maybe their ace up the sleeve.
I think they may be ready to purchase it back from the administrator and come out without any onerous rent deal obligations.
I don't think ACL petitioning for it would be a particular problem for them, and it might actually have been their plan, for PR reasons.
The problem is TIMING, I think SISU would have left us in until our chance of making the playoffs had gone by.
Last week I thought that chance had gone, but I now think I had miscalculated and we could still overhaul Bournemouth (but loss of Clarke & now Baker makes it less likely).
I think ACL have just played into SISU's hands but at this moment in time SISU won't be sure which way to jump!

imp:

it is certainly a thought grego_gee, but it relies on their view that ACL are dead in the water without CCFC ...... guess only time will tell

if they are successful where do they play ? it wont be the Ricoh because i do not think ACL are dead in the water, but equally I dont believe it is easy for them to replace CCFC either....... I think SISU relied on action in the summer, at a time of their choosing and this action has come sooner than expected. Not sure they judge the resolve of those in ACL that well

 

[RoboCCFC90]

You know what? It's quite scary that we have fans advocating eviction. You do realise that this would leave us unable to fulfil our league obligations for the rest of the season which would mean expulsion from the football league. Who would that leave to take us over? We have 3 home games left - Is it worth it? Of course not.

People should think about what they are saying - eviction from the Ricoh is equal to insolvancy/liquidation. I thought even the ACL protagontists were smarter than that??!!

And I bet good money that its the fans that claim they are staying away because there "against SISU" yet they are the ones who are first too fault every molecule.

 

[Spencer]

Likely outcome on Friday is it is adjourned. Suits SISU to string it out, it is highly likely that there will be detailed legal argument for the judge to go away and study, If SISU stump up money by depositing it with the court then ACL will argue that it doesn't prove solvency. I just do not see resolution Friday

ACL have to prove two tests. 1) that assets exceed liabilities 2) that the company is unable to pay all its debts as they fall due to be paid. The argument will be over the second. CCFC will have to provide details to the court of all assets and all known/potential liabilities as well as how those liabilities are to be met. The original lease will have to be considered and the basis of why it is challenged as a legal debt and should be excluded. The judge will need to have details of the lease and debt because he can not make an assessment of solvency or the amount SISU need to put in with out those details.

The judges decision will be based on what is ........ not what might be achieved or discussions that may have taken place or agreements made then rejected or media announcements. All contracts currently in force will stand unless proven unlawful, details of the clubs actual provable financial position will be required for the judge to decide

As for whether ACL should have taken action ........ well what else are they supposed to do when faced with a delinquent tenant? They havent rushed in to this, it isnt a knee jerk action. They have taken each step one at a time. Equally there is a deliberate plan embarked on by SISU - that hasnt just happened. I suspect that the 3rd party debtor orders led SISU to think no action would be taken by ACL before 02/05/13. But they are entitled to protect their company also

Should SISU succeed on the day then it would suggest that the business is solvent. The problem with that is that they then continue to operate without settling the rent issue but equally says that the company is capable of being solvent without the additional sources going forward simply because SISU continue to throw money at it. Is that really viable / is that a future?

SISU's out in this is to prove over time (not friday) that the lease etc at the Ricoh is unlawful (that is different to illegal btw). That could take a lot of time, expense and court time - and is far from certain. In the meantime unless SISU put in additional funds we have to cut our cloth accordingly cutting back on all costs.

ACL if they lose in their petition, will continue as is, will accept the match day contributions to costs (have to be paid up front btw) and the original lease stands. The club will still be providing footfall. They (ACL) do not have to go back to the negotiating table, they certainly do not have to let CCFC have or purchase the income streams. They have clearly said they want SISU gone ...... if thats the case why would they negotiate further. In the mean time they may have to defend the basis of the lease against claims of being unlawful.

Lets be very clear the directors of each company have a duty to protect above all the rights of the company they represent. That is followed by the rights of its shareholders and the rights of the creditors of the company. Somewhere down the list is the rights of people/entities that owe it money. To do anything other than that in that order is to leave themselves open to legal action and financial penalty. So when folk go on about ACL wanting to take CCFC down or opportunism in terms of timing then they are incorrect in terms of the legality of it. When others slate SISU for the actions they have taken over the rent then again it is incorrect in Company Law because it is relatively easy to make a case that the directors were fighting for the benefit of the company (my own opinion is there was more to it but thats by the by). That applies to both companies and of course timing matters because that impacts on the duty of each director to act in the best interests of the company they represent....... so why expect ACL's first duty to be to protect CCFC? or vice versa

There is a thought that SISU wanted this process but thats speculation ..... but it may be true

So my own best guess is it will be adjourned and it wont be settled until after 28/03/13

I don't profess to be an expert in insolvency law but there are a lot of statements made in here that I don't believe to be correct.

Firstly, why would SISU bring an action to demonstrate the level of rent is unlawful? At the moment they are paying nothing - undoubtedly a court would rule it should be something so SISU have no interest in litigating. The longer this goes on the fatter SISU get, off the unpaid rent, and the more pain ACL feel.

Since when has proving assets exceed liabilities been a test of insolvency? A test of administration will be an ability to pay. I imagine ccfc have been setting aside the rent as a debtor so it should be available. Unless they are setting aside a lower provision but they will be including something for back rent in their calculations.

A duty to protect the rights of their company is so wide in scope to be almost meaningless. I could argue the man city directors aren't acting in the best interests of the club by overexposing the club - but that's just a matter of opinion. Equally, surely if that is a test SISU directors have failed in their duty to SISU by pumping cash into ccfc.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

SISU dumping us won't improve anything!


why not fail to see how we could do any worse.they have sold or mortgaged every asset we had players ryton etc.

You'd do well to find a more conniving, underhand, selfish and counter-productive owner! The ultimate waste product of the capitalist system-scavengers.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Thanks OSB as ever your detailed take on things is much appreciated.
So if as I also suspect the legal wrangling's will not be concluded on Friday what are the scenarios re possible outcomes after that date in terms of points deduction.
Somewhat hypothesising I know but say > 28th March CCFC are placed into Admin is our projected 10/15pts deduction enforced this season or next season(whatever the division)?

my best guess is that this wont be settled before end of season and that any points deduction will be next season....... end of season is what ? ..........7 weeks time, in legal terms that is not long........ and administration is far from certain at this time

 

[italiahorse]

I don't hate CCFC mate - I hate SISU. That's like accusing Blackburn fans of hating their club because they oppose Venkys.

As for the doomsday scenario, I doubt it would happen. SISU would cave in, leave and allow the administrator or a new owner to come in and continue the club's fixtures.

The trouble is we don't know if there is another owner. The only certainty is if SISU want to continue. I do not feel happy with SISU brinkmanship as we could go over the edge.
Personally the argument is over an agreed acceptable rent.

I propose that -

- SISU pay all outstanding rent immediately.
- ACL charge no further rent whilst in League 1 taking all incremental profits from catering, car parking sponsorship etc
- ACL SISU agree a rent for the championship / Premier League
- ACL SISU agree a way forward on incremental profits

Any seconders ?

"Life is so simple for me"

 

[ajsccfc]

My prediction - whoever 'wins', we end up losing.

 

[Houdi]

Living not far from Cardiff, I think I know a little more than you do mate!
Millenium Stadium is the host to many attractions throughout the year.
World Speedway, Monster Truck events, World Moto x, World Moto Trial(Don't know what it's official title is) but the one where the bikers do stunts over rocks, oil drums, and the like.
FIM British speedway, Bruce Springsteen, Rhianna, Rugby League World Cup in 2013:wave:

The cost of staging the British Speedway GP is huge,with hundreds of tons of shale having to be shipped in,and it takes nearly a whole week to prepare the track,and I believe they have about 24 hours after the meeting to put it all back including the pitch which comes in pallet forms.The closed roof guarantees the meeting will go ahead,something that is essential,therefore the Ricoh would be a non starter.
The Millenium Stadium because of its closed roof is much more of an attractive venue then the Ricoh.

 

[ajsccfc]

For the record, I would welcome Rihanna to the Ricoh with open arms. She can stay at mine if she likes.

 

[italiahorse]

The cost of staging the British Speedway GP is huge,with hundreds of tons of shale having to be shipped in,and it takes nearly a whole week to prepare the track,and I believe they have about 24 hours after the meeting to put it all back including the pitch which comes in pallet forms.The closed roof guarantees the meeting will go ahead,something that is essential,therefore the Ricoh would be a non starter.
The Millenium Stadium because of its closed roof is much more of an attractive venue then the Ricoh.

Also the whole stadium is concrete floored. The grass is taken out in blocks by fork truck

Not an option without major structural changes.

 

[CJparker]

The trouble is we don't know if there is another owner. The only certainty is if SISU want to continue. I do not feel happy with SISU brinkmanship as we could go over the edge.
Personally the argument is over an agreed acceptable rent.

I propose that -

- SISU pay all outstanding rent immediately.
- ACL charge no further rent whilst in League 1 taking all incremental profits from catering, car parking sponsorship etc
- ACL SISU agree a rent for the championship / Premier League
- ACL SISU agree a way forward on incremental profits

Any seconders ?

"Life is so simple for me"

Good idea, so therefore it won't happen. Problem is that trust has gone between ACL and SISU - if you were in ACL's shoes and you agreed this, what would you say to those who ask "what's to stop SISU defaulting and renegotiating in the future, when it suits them?"

 

[oldskyblue58]

I don't profess to be an expert in insolvency law but there are a lot of statements made in here that I don't believe to be correct.

Firstly, why would SISU bring an action to demonstrate the level of rent is unlawful? At the moment they are paying nothing - undoubtedly a court would rule it should be something so SISU have no interest in litigating. The longer this goes on the fatter SISU get, off the unpaid rent, and the more pain ACL feel.

Since when has proving assets exceed liabilities been a test of insolvency? A test of administration will be an ability to pay. I imagine ccfc have been setting aside the rent as a debtor so it should be available. Unless they are setting aside a lower provision but they will be including something for back rent in their calculations.

A duty to protect the rights of their company is so wide in scope to be almost meaningless. I could argue the man city directors aren't acting in the best interests of the club by overexposing the club - but that's just a matter of opinion. Equally, surely if that is a test SISU directors have failed in their duty to SISU by pumping cash into ccfc.

Never said the quantum of the rent to be unlawful i said they would seek to prove the contract was unlawful when it was signed....... i will leave you to figure out the implications of that in respect of what has been paid, who would be liable to repay, and the effect on that company, but i have explained them before. SISU need to break the current lease.

The balance sheet test has been a standard test indicating insolvency but is not sufficient on its own. Suggest you google tests of insolvency. CCFC do not have a rent debtor they have a creditor and on the basis that SISU have top up funds monthly how are CCFC putting anything aside? It seems that ACL are prepared to call a halt to the pain and accept no income at all and no recovery of back rent...... administration is potentially one step from liquidation

Again I suggest you use google for the duties of directors. Not interested in Man City to be honest but yes they are exposed to the owner wanting his money back. So long as SISU directors have pumped their clients money in on the instructions of those clients having made the clients fully aware of all the circumstances then i don't see that you have a point