How can they exploit that?
The creditors are surely named in the internal books - creditor list.
£60m debt. Sisu doubters proved correct (5 Viewers)
- Thread starter samccov1987
- Start date
How can they exploit that?
The creditors are surely named in the internal books - creditor list.
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Ah, here's another with an unhealthy obsession with me, just like someone else I used to "know".
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
Go through the accounts you will see it doesnt all match from one company to the next. In the Group accounts inter company accs contra out ...... have said before the amount SISU have invested is not the creditors in CCFC Ltd but the amount disclosed in the SBS&L accounts.
At 31/05/11 - in the accounts we are led to believe that CCFC Ltd owe group relationships £52m (with approx 5.2m other creditors) but the SBS&L accounts disclose that monies actually received from SISU and ARVO at that date were £31.7m. Funds are chanelled through CCFC H from SBS&L.
Look at the CCFCH accounts in 2011. That company owns 100% of CCFCLtd - money is chanelled through it by SISU to ccfc. so you would expect a debt owing by CCFCltd to CCFCH, there isnt one it has been written off. But CCFC H owes group undertakings £47.3m at 31/05/11.
so according to the accounts at 31/05/11 we have CCFC Ltd owing other group members £52m
BUT CCFCH holdings is not showing anything as owing to it and SBS&L (individual accs)shows £1.8m owed to it and SBS&L group accounts £nil
CCFC H shows it owes £47.m to group members neither CCFC Ltd nor SBS&L show any such figure owed to it
In the accounts for CCFC Ltd accounts the amount owed to group starts at 43.7m and increases to 52.1m =8.4m movement in year . In the CCFCH accounts for same period there is a provision against amounts irrecoverable from subsidiary (CCFC L) of £8.4m that creates the loss in ccfch for that year ...... ie they have basically written it off in one company not the other.
It is hard to put this all in laymans terms. But trust me there is a lot of smoke & mirrors going on........ and since the very start of their ownership
davebart
Active Member
I do not understand all this finance language but you appear to have hit the nail on the head. ie SISU said we were debt free when in fact they had created a new debt with themselves as the creditors.
I'm not really sure how all these numbers play out because it doesn't really matter if we are £10m £30 m or £60 in debt. It will never be paid off.
As was alluded to by another poster there are other ways of getting money out of owning the club though ie by charging it an exhorbitant rent for using Ryton.
Bennets Afro
Well-Known Member
OSB, Who owes the money, CCFC ltd(in admin)or CCFCH ltd(not in admin)?
And are we still connected to CCFCH Ltd?
And are we still connected to CCFCH Ltd?
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
stiill owned by ccfch ............. the money owed to sisu is owed by SBS&L as far as I know but only have info to 31/05/11
All accounts are signed off by auditors - there must be an explanation that satisfy them, or what am I missing?
Sky Blue Kid
Well-Known Member
Thank you for that enlightenment OSB
Perhaps all the posters who were shouted down when saying what OSB just proved, might get apologies from certain posters!.....Then again, I won't hold my breath!
bigbeatpete
Member
The other questions for me is will the administrator be able to make anything of the accounts? Or do they not need to? Will ACL be able to challenge anything based on this level of complexity/creativity?
SISU seem to have made this as complex as possible, and when this happens there is only one body that knows the real answers.......SISU again.
The rabbit warren goes deeper Alice, but just how deep - we'll probably never know.
The administrator appears to be a highly skilled accountant and auditor. He will be able to follow the paper trail. It will surely take time and cost a fortune, but in the end he will be able to reveal what is up and down.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
It is reasonable to have expected if the creditors were written off in 2008 that this would reflect in the balance sheet of CCFC L and CCFCH at that time (these were creditors of those companies after all).
But from 31/05/07 (pre SISU) total creditors of CCFC Limited increased from £31.2m to a total of £40.2m at 31/05/08.
At the same time creditors of CCFCH grew from £23.1m to £33.5m
That period covers the purchase of CCFC Group by SISU in January 2008
So why did the amount of debt go up not down if £35m was written off and never paid ?
What SISU did was to take resposibility for paying the creditors but said they wont pay £35m of it. The creditors agreed and accepted less
So SISU assigned the full value of those debts owed by CCFC/CCFCH to themselves with no discount. The intention being to get a benefit from writing off debts first, then later on sell the football side and get repaid the full amount excluding the write off. It hasnt worked out.
They have not spent £60m on the club
But from 31/05/07 (pre SISU) total creditors of CCFC Limited increased from £31.2m to a total of £40.2m at 31/05/08.
At the same time creditors of CCFCH grew from £23.1m to £33.5m
That period covers the purchase of CCFC Group by SISU in January 2008
So why did the amount of debt go up not down if £35m was written off and never paid ?
What SISU did was to take resposibility for paying the creditors but said they wont pay £35m of it. The creditors agreed and accepted less
So SISU assigned the full value of those debts owed by CCFC/CCFCH to themselves with no discount. The intention being to get a benefit from writing off debts first, then later on sell the football side and get repaid the full amount excluding the write off. It hasnt worked out.
They have not spent £60m on the club
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
thats a fair point isnt it Godiva:thinking about:
torchomatic
Well-Known Member
Ooh, I'm feeling a little queasy all of a sudden.
Thank you for that enlightenment OSB
Perhaps all the posters who were shouted down when saying what OSB just proved, might get apologies from certain posters!.....Then again, I won't hold my breath!
I think so - and as a professionel auditor yourself I was hoping you could think of some explanations.
Was some of the debts written off by creditors but with a clause that it would be repaid in full if the club got promoted to PL? Would that serve as an explanation?
Mr T - Sukka!
Active Member
Cyman islands, off shore accounts, AVRO, SISU, im getting sick of all this rubbish. I can no longer relate to CCFC anymore. I doesnt feel like our club anymore.
I dont even know where i can buy anything CCFC, as the Ricoh shop has gone. Online CCFC shop is offline.
Im fearing the future with this hanging over CCFC. £60 million is a hell of alot of money. I have a bad feeling we could only have 3 games that we will ever see CCFC at home again.
Thats if we are at the Ricoh. Alot of people have some explaining to do.
I dont even know where i can buy anything CCFC, as the Ricoh shop has gone. Online CCFC shop is offline.
Im fearing the future with this hanging over CCFC. £60 million is a hell of alot of money. I have a bad feeling we could only have 3 games that we will ever see CCFC at home again.
Thats if we are at the Ricoh. Alot of people have some explaining to do.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
simple answer i do not know what they were told or what other evidence they made their assessment on
Ok - so until we are shown evidence we can at least agree that sisu never injected £60m into the club/group and that there actually may be a fair, legal and valid explanation to how and why the amount is listed.
oldskyblue58
CCFC Finance Director
only ever said it was smoke and mirrors Godiva made no claims of illegality.
Think everyone would agree SISU never put £60m in to the club
Think everyone would agree SISU never put £60m in to the club
Sub
Well-Known Member
Just dug this out intresting read and we are debt free :facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
An interview with Ray Ranson!
An interview with Ray Ranson!
Ray Ranson’s move into the hot seat at Coventry City towards the end of 2007 marked the beginning of a new era for Coventry City.
In 2004 Ranson acquired ProZone, a sports analysis business tracking players movements and performance data and soon turned the loss making business into profit. “Most clubs in my opinion don’t utilise the software of ProZone to anything like its maximum potential.They can get a lot more out of it. I bet most only use 30 or 40 per cent of what it’s capable of doing. And it’s not just because I owned the business until recently that I say that, I am a big believer that it’s a fantastic tool and used to its full potential it has huge benefits. Everybody uses it differently for example Sam Allardyce uses it in a different way to how Mourhinio did. When I arrived at Coventry we didn’t have it. We simply couldn’t afford it. Now we have it and I know how to utilise its potential for the club, ”he said. He has since recently sold ProZone.
He also made serious moves towards buying a football club and personally approached Aston Villa without success
before building a relationship 2 years ago with UK owned company SISU to work together to identify and invest in a
football club. SISU and Ray Ranson identified clubs including Southampton and Manchester City before making an approach to buy Coventry City. The acquisition strategy was clearly defined. The remit was to find a traditional club with a loyal fan base and good quality stadium. Coventry City and the potential of the Ricoh Arena fitted the bill perfectly particularly with its history and loyal fan base. Coventry City is of course no stranger to ambitious individuals who have broken the mould in the game…. Sky Blues legend Jimmy Hill made his mark in soccer in the 60’s as a visionary and as the ‘architect’ behind the abolition of the players’ maximum wage who went on to steer the club from the third to first division. His innovative style and marketing skills ensured that the Sky Blues were never far from the headlines.
Ray Ranson, the club’s dynamic young Chairman, is undoubtedly a modern-day visionary but the difference from Jimmy Hill is that he is not only experienced in soccer but is equipped with proven business experience and skills and as a result has clear business objectives of where he plans to take Coventry City over the next couple of years working closely with the owners of the Ricoh Arena,ACL.
And as the press and Sky Blues fans have quickly learned from Ray’s open and honest approach in his 18 months at the helm, he won’t be making any promises that he can’t deliver simply to generate positive PR. That is not the style of the man…. Indeed, as he has repeated on several occasions, the only promise he is willing to give to the fans is that he will leave the club ‘in better shape’ than the organisation he took over when the Sky Blues were on the brink of going into Administration.
“Yes the club was almost £40 million in debt, losing about £8 million a year. We have forecast to reduce the losses significantly. And all the debts including the bank, long term creditors etc have been cleared. We’re now one of only three clubs in the country that is debt free,” he reflected. However, the blunt talking 48 year old northerner would rather not talk in detail about the mistakes made by the club’s managements of the past and you will definitely not find any signs promoting Operation Premiership around the club
offices in the Ricoh Arena! For as his fellow directors and staff will confirm, Ray Ranson is a man with a mission – his goal is to create a new chapter in the history of Coventry City by building a club with a reputation for consistent success on the field and an organisation that is equally as professional off it.
One of the most astute decisions he has made since moving into the Sky Blues Chair was to appoint Coventry-born lifelong Sky Blues fan and former Associate Director Gary Hoffman as Vice Chairman.
Gary, who has been appointed to the high profile role of Chief Executive of Northern Rock, brings a wealth of corporate experience to the new Sky Blues board. He began his new job at Northern Rock in October 1st having spent the previous 27 years of his career at Barclays Bank, more recently as
Deputy Chairman of the Barclays Group. Ray stressed the importance of the
relationship: “I knew of Gary through his senior role at Barclays and their sponsorship of the Premiership and sport in general.
“He is a huge Coventry City fan and brings tremendous experience to the board. He has been fantastic support to me since he became Vice Chairman and we speak most days on club matters.
“In fact we have an excellent mix on the new board. Joe Elliott is synonymous with the fans and the City of Coventry in general, Mike Parton is renowned businessman in the area of telecoms and technology and currently CEO of Damovo group, and we also have an employee of SISU Capital as a board director so it is a good spread of interests and talent.”
“Furthermore, we have brought in a new Commercial Director in Nathan Kosky. Nathan was highly recommended by a mutual friend and we interviewed a number of people.He brings a little bit extra to the table as he’s not your normal football Commercial Director. He’s used to running a
big venue and comes from the O2 Arena in London.” And on the subject of impressive stadiums, he continued: “We have the distinct advantage of playing in a fantastic stadium which is fast becoming one of the best
known arenas in the country, “But it is far more than a soccer stadium. That is its ticket but we have an unprecedented opportunity to maximise the commercial potential that the Ricoh Arena offers and build an entertainment venue that operates seven days a week, 365 days a year.
“The Ricoh Arena can become a centre of entertainment excellence and, a focal point not only for soccer but exhibitions, concerts, corporate hospitality and conferences – indeed every type of business use.
“The game plan is to create an excellent sporting experience for fans at the stadium, be they supporters, sponsors or visiting fans and officials,”said Ray Ranson.
“The Ricoh Arena is the future for Coventry City and will be an important part of the future prosperity of Coventry and Warwickshire,” he said.
An obvious signal of the way forward as far as his ambitions for the Ricoh Arena are concerned, was the recent move to bring the administrative offices of Coventry City and the Arena Coventry Ltd (ACL) together under one unit. [FONT="]
In 2004 Ranson acquired ProZone, a sports analysis business tracking players movements and performance data and soon turned the loss making business into profit. “Most clubs in my opinion don’t utilise the software of ProZone to anything like its maximum potential.They can get a lot more out of it. I bet most only use 30 or 40 per cent of what it’s capable of doing. And it’s not just because I owned the business until recently that I say that, I am a big believer that it’s a fantastic tool and used to its full potential it has huge benefits. Everybody uses it differently for example Sam Allardyce uses it in a different way to how Mourhinio did. When I arrived at Coventry we didn’t have it. We simply couldn’t afford it. Now we have it and I know how to utilise its potential for the club, ”he said. He has since recently sold ProZone.
He also made serious moves towards buying a football club and personally approached Aston Villa without success
before building a relationship 2 years ago with UK owned company SISU to work together to identify and invest in a
football club. SISU and Ray Ranson identified clubs including Southampton and Manchester City before making an approach to buy Coventry City. The acquisition strategy was clearly defined. The remit was to find a traditional club with a loyal fan base and good quality stadium. Coventry City and the potential of the Ricoh Arena fitted the bill perfectly particularly with its history and loyal fan base. Coventry City is of course no stranger to ambitious individuals who have broken the mould in the game…. Sky Blues legend Jimmy Hill made his mark in soccer in the 60’s as a visionary and as the ‘architect’ behind the abolition of the players’ maximum wage who went on to steer the club from the third to first division. His innovative style and marketing skills ensured that the Sky Blues were never far from the headlines.
Ray Ranson, the club’s dynamic young Chairman, is undoubtedly a modern-day visionary but the difference from Jimmy Hill is that he is not only experienced in soccer but is equipped with proven business experience and skills and as a result has clear business objectives of where he plans to take Coventry City over the next couple of years working closely with the owners of the Ricoh Arena,ACL.
And as the press and Sky Blues fans have quickly learned from Ray’s open and honest approach in his 18 months at the helm, he won’t be making any promises that he can’t deliver simply to generate positive PR. That is not the style of the man…. Indeed, as he has repeated on several occasions, the only promise he is willing to give to the fans is that he will leave the club ‘in better shape’ than the organisation he took over when the Sky Blues were on the brink of going into Administration.
“Yes the club was almost £40 million in debt, losing about £8 million a year. We have forecast to reduce the losses significantly. And all the debts including the bank, long term creditors etc have been cleared. We’re now one of only three clubs in the country that is debt free,” he reflected. However, the blunt talking 48 year old northerner would rather not talk in detail about the mistakes made by the club’s managements of the past and you will definitely not find any signs promoting Operation Premiership around the club
offices in the Ricoh Arena! For as his fellow directors and staff will confirm, Ray Ranson is a man with a mission – his goal is to create a new chapter in the history of Coventry City by building a club with a reputation for consistent success on the field and an organisation that is equally as professional off it.
One of the most astute decisions he has made since moving into the Sky Blues Chair was to appoint Coventry-born lifelong Sky Blues fan and former Associate Director Gary Hoffman as Vice Chairman.
Gary, who has been appointed to the high profile role of Chief Executive of Northern Rock, brings a wealth of corporate experience to the new Sky Blues board. He began his new job at Northern Rock in October 1st having spent the previous 27 years of his career at Barclays Bank, more recently as
Deputy Chairman of the Barclays Group. Ray stressed the importance of the
relationship: “I knew of Gary through his senior role at Barclays and their sponsorship of the Premiership and sport in general.
“He is a huge Coventry City fan and brings tremendous experience to the board. He has been fantastic support to me since he became Vice Chairman and we speak most days on club matters.
“In fact we have an excellent mix on the new board. Joe Elliott is synonymous with the fans and the City of Coventry in general, Mike Parton is renowned businessman in the area of telecoms and technology and currently CEO of Damovo group, and we also have an employee of SISU Capital as a board director so it is a good spread of interests and talent.”
“Furthermore, we have brought in a new Commercial Director in Nathan Kosky. Nathan was highly recommended by a mutual friend and we interviewed a number of people.He brings a little bit extra to the table as he’s not your normal football Commercial Director. He’s used to running a
big venue and comes from the O2 Arena in London.” And on the subject of impressive stadiums, he continued: “We have the distinct advantage of playing in a fantastic stadium which is fast becoming one of the best
known arenas in the country, “But it is far more than a soccer stadium. That is its ticket but we have an unprecedented opportunity to maximise the commercial potential that the Ricoh Arena offers and build an entertainment venue that operates seven days a week, 365 days a year.
“The Ricoh Arena can become a centre of entertainment excellence and, a focal point not only for soccer but exhibitions, concerts, corporate hospitality and conferences – indeed every type of business use.
“The game plan is to create an excellent sporting experience for fans at the stadium, be they supporters, sponsors or visiting fans and officials,”said Ray Ranson.
“The Ricoh Arena is the future for Coventry City and will be an important part of the future prosperity of Coventry and Warwickshire,” he said.
An obvious signal of the way forward as far as his ambitions for the Ricoh Arena are concerned, was the recent move to bring the administrative offices of Coventry City and the Arena Coventry Ltd (ACL) together under one unit. [FONT="]
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Sub
Well-Known Member
i wanted to not enough roomyou needed to post more of the newspaper to make your point
davebart
Active Member
presumably someone has put 30m in since 2007 though given the increased debt.
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
Others were posting views that differed to that on this forum only recently.
I hope they now realise that these numbers are book debts & an understanding of the real money that SISU in will only be reached when they're gone and the accounts for all companies in the group are finally published.