Must we wait until the second week of May to find out? (1 Viewer)

[jas365]

You might think they are inextricably linked and I might think that too, but will Sisu argue that in court? Or will they argue the opposite?

I'm 99% certain they WILL argue that in court, but all the documentation proves otherwise. CCFC (Holdings) Ltd is CCFC Ltd's parent company, so therefore they are linked. They both have the same ultimate holding co. (Sky Blue Sports & Leisure), both have the same registered office address (Ricoh Arena) and Fisher is a director in both companies.

 

---

[CCFC PimpRail]

Why would the FA wish to support a failing team on the way down with unservicible debts and little chance of investment from its current owners and even less of a chance of finding a fairy godmother to buy it, when there are better teams in their ascendency. I can see them not being too bothered about liquidation, in order to make an example of CCFC.

 

[covboy1987]

Good post

According to my understanding of what went on in the court, the judge - after ACL withdrew their suit for administration - agreed that CCFC Ltd were already in liquidation. The judge further agreed that ACL and the administrator had 6 weeks to make their findings and return to court where the judge would make whatever determinations concerning just who and what is actually involved, who owns what and who, besides CCFC Ltd may or may not also be in administration.

The Football League believe that the golden share is with CCFC Ltd, which per the judge is in liquidation, hence the 10 points deduction. SISU/CCFC Holdings, who claim that all assets apart from the rental contract with ACL are with CCFC Holdings and not in CCFC Ltd., are apparantly appealing this decision.
And apparently, the Football League are continuing to investigate the claims of SISU/CCFC Holdings concerning how and when SISU transferred the share and player contracts and all other assets from Ltd to Holdings without them being informed or knowing about it.

So without making assumptions as to the activities of SISU and whether they are/were legal in accordance with both the laws of the land and the laws of the Football League, as well as the laws of the Football Association (who are also involved as they I believe also issue a share to each club to play in the cup competition):

- We will be back in court the second week of May, and until then we have no idea whether or not the actions of SISU will result in the judge declaring that more SISU-owned companies will join CCFC Ltd in administration.
- I assume that the Administrator, irrespective of whatever claims SISU may make, will similarly be in the dark until they return to court in May.
-The Football League (and the FA) will, I assume, not take further action until the judge has been provided with (hopefully) full information, at which time they also will then have better and fuller information on which to judge whether SISU have breached their rules and decide what penalties, if any, our club should suffer in addition to the 10 points already deducted.

In my opinion (and it is only an opinion with no other information than that generally available) it is rather unlikely that any appeal will get the 10 point deduction revoked this season. The FL made it clear that according to their records, the share resides with Ltd. The last audited accounts of Ltd. also made this clear.

My understanding is also that the share had better be with Ltd., because if Fisher does manage to prove that the share is in Holding and not Ltd., then he has breached the FL rules and much more than 10 points are liable to be deducted.
The problem I have with the appeal is that the 10 point deduction either stands, or Fisher proves that the share is in Holdings and we are in even more trouble. I cannot see this appeal as anything but a lose/lose proposition. If anyone has a better understanding of how the appeal might result in no points being deducted at all, I would be most pleased to hear them.

Fisher has additionally clearly stated several times that the players contracts are in Holding. This may or may not be the case. Fisher also clearly stated that the golden share was in Holdings, but the Football League equally clearly believe the golden share is in Ltd.
Let us assume that Fisher is correct and the contracts are in Holdings, then we have two potential scenarios at least:
-Football league rules state that the share and the players contracts must be in the same entity. If Fisher is correct that the players contracts are in Holdings and the FL determines that as far as they are concerned the share is in Ltd., then all of the players have been playing illegally since whatever date SISU/Fisher transferred the contracts from Ltd. to Holdings. We would then be in deep trouble.
-Similarly, if Fisher can prove that he and SISU did indeed move both the share and the players contracts to Holdings at some time between the last audited statements submitted in June? and the date of administration in March, then we are equally in deep trouble with the FL because SISU/Fisher did this without the knowledge or approval of the FL.

Please understand that I am not trying to apportion blame or take sides here. I am just trying to understand where we are and what the potential consequences might be.
My conclusion, however, is that - based on the information above - we are in deep trouble with the football league no matter what is determined with reference to the share and player contracts, unless the share and the contracts are in reality all still in Ltd., in which case we would have been lied to by Fisher/SISU concerning the true position.

Reference returning to the courts in May, I find it hard to see how the judge could not determine that Holdings - who according to Fisher/SISU hold the player contracts and golden share - is inextricably linked with CCFC Ltd. in the operations of the football club, and that therefore the judge must determine that CCFC Holdings is also in liquidation.
Again, the only way I can see that the judge would not determine this would again be if we have been lied to and in reality the share and the contracts are still with Ltd.

So to conclude this rather long post, I think either we have been badly lied to by SISU/Fisher, or we are in deep trouble with both the courts and with the Football League, and the only good thing is that this season will be over before we find out what our future - if any - might be.

Happy Easter

Good Post
Said this in fewer words last week it will all come out in the wash 2nd week of May and i feel personally we are in deep trouble with the football league but hoped to be proved wrong-It also does not help that SISU stay silent and do not try comment on anything but still expect the fans to turn up in numbers

 

[wingy]

Maybe they will argue to the FL that they are inextricably linked and to the Court that they are "and this is the honest truth guv" completely separate?

In a Parallel Universe such shinnanigans would result in a spell in a penal colony.

In this one with the right QC anything is possible.

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

Taking this a bit further:
Why on Earth are the Football League not already long since doing something to stop this sort of financial shenanigans? Why do they let club after club create these multi-layer group structures in the first place. All the FL has to do is make a hard and fast rule that there shall be one legal entity per club only, and that the legal entity is owned by the owners of the club, and all golden shares, contracts and everything that goes into operating and maintaining the club are in that one legal entity, and that legal entity shall, without fail, submit final audited accounts by a specified date without exemption and no excuse will be accepted without the application of a severe penalty for contravening these very simple rules, the minimum of which shall be demotion to the next league down.
Most of the problems in football today are down to the sheer greed and money that has come into the game that has turned football from a working man's sport into big business for the prawn sandwich brigade and diabolical owners like SISU ( a HEDGE FUND for Christ's sake! How on this Earth could they EVER have been accepted by the Football League as "suitable owners" of a football club if money and greed were not the prime factor on all sides of football today except for the fans?).
The only way to save football is to take the ridiculous money out of it again, reintroduce a maximum wage of some sort (thank you very much Jimmy Hill!) to stop paying what are in the main ignorant and uneducated young men impossibly stupid wages that the average working man or woman can only dream of.

 

[SkyBlueSwiss]

Oh, and by the way:
We were in at least as bad a financial position as Leicester when they went into administration at a time before penalties were introduced. If only we had done the same all those years ago, where would we be now?

 

[James Smith]

I'm 99% certain they WILL argue that in court, but all the documentation proves otherwise. CCFC (Holdings) Ltd is CCFC Ltd's parent company, so therefore they are linked. They both have the same ultimate holding co. (Sky Blue Sports & Leisure), both have the same registered office address (Ricoh Arena) and Fisher is a director in both companies.

So basically either they argue in court that they are linked in which case the 10 point deduction will be confirmed and the appeal null and void. They argue that the companies are separate in court - and this is agreed by the court - in which case we might (no guarantees) win the appeal against the 10 points but wouldn't we then fall foul of the 3rd party ownership rules for the players?

 

[Warwickhunt]

Swiss, I suspect you mean CCFC Ltd are in administration, not liquidation? Liquidation is the end of the line. A company in administration might recover or it might move into liquidation.

But on your basic point, it's a mess. If the Golden Share is in CCFC Ltd and the player registrations are in Holdings, then in the normal course of events I would have thought the club's management should just argue the companies are inextricably linked to avoid the threat of further punishment for third party ownership or moving the registrations without permission etc. But Sisu will be to arguing exactly the opposite to try to insulate CCFC Holdings from CCFC Ltd.

If the share has been transferred, that background will need exploring before we know what happened there. If the league unwittingly gave permission, I would have thought it either can't punish CCFC again or it risks legal action from Sisu to stop any further punishment of the club. If the league did not give permission, then there could be trouble ahead.

On this reading, it would appear the club's best hope of avoiding further punishment is either the league discovering it unwittingly approved the golden share transfer (if it is in Holdings) or (if the share is in CCFC Ltd) CCFC Holdings are judged to be inextricably linked to CCFC Ltd and are also put into administration. It wouldn't seem right to add another 10 penalty for Holdings going into admin if they are judged to be inextricably linked would it? The argument in that scenario being that the club is CCFC Ltd and Holdings combined.

Im exactly in the same mind frame you are in! I know we all think that TF is a Dumbo but I cannot for the life of me believe that he(SISU) did not inform the league of the fact that the share had moved to another financial entity. is there a genie still to be let out of the bottle in this mess?

 

[James Smith]

Im exactly in the same mind frame you are in! I know we all think that TF is a Dumbo but I cannot for the life of me believe that he(SISU) did not inform the league of the fact that the share had moved to another financial entity. is there a genie still to be let out of the bottle in this mess?

Sadly I can see them either forgetting to do that, or requested it but not having got approval from the League to do so when they dumped us into Admin.

The Football League can confirm that Coventry City Football Club have been deducted 10 points, in accordance with its rules and regulations.
This Sporting Sanction has been implemented with immediate effect. Coventry City have seven days in which to appeal.
The League has now begun discussions with the administrator aimed at achieving a sustainable future for the club within The Football League.

It's the last bit that I've bolded that worries me because as I understand it, the Golden Share = Football Club hence why they are talking to the administrator about a sustainable future for the club.

 

[jas365]

So basically either they argue in court that they are linked in which case the 10 point deduction will be confirmed and the appeal null and void. They argue that the companies are separate in court - and this is agreed by the court - in which case we might (no guarantees) win the appeal against the 10 points but wouldn't we then fall foul of the 3rd party ownership rules for the players?

Pretty much yeah, as the OP said in much more detail i'd say we are deep in the brown stuff whatever the FL and court decides.

We have to remember that we are (allegedly) a professional club who is also a limited company, where certain information is available to the public and everything has to be submitted and declared through official channels. It's staggering that SISU/Fisher thought they could just move contracts and certain assets around without telling anyone and without punishment.

 

[mattylad]

Pretty much yeah, as the OP said in much more detail i'd say we are deep in the brown stuff whatever the FL and court decides.

We have to remember that we are (allegedly) a professional club who is also a limited company, where certain information is available to the public and everything has to be submitted and declared through official channels. It's staggering that SISU/Fisher thought they could just move contracts and certain assets around without telling anyone and without punishment.

So you have proof that this has happened? I certainly would not be making such libelous statements without it. :facepalm: They may of course have done so but what you are presenting is web based conjecture as fact. Since talks are still ongoing with the league that could suggest that infact things are not as clear as people first believed (be that pro or negative to CCFC) otherwise I am sure any such discussions could have been long since concluded?

 

[jas365]

So you have proof that this has happened? I certainly would not be making such libelous statements without it. :facepalm: They may of course have done so but what you are presenting is web based conjecture as fact. Since talks are still ongoing with the league that could suggest that infact things are not as clear as people first believed (be that pro or negative to CCFC) otherwise I am sure any such discussions could have been long since concluded?

Erm, the club are saying the the FL share and player contracts, are in the name of CCFC (Holdings) Ltd. The FL share as disclosed on their last annual return submitted in June 2012 states that it is in CCFC Ltd. For this to be moved they have to get permission from the FL and submit this to Companies House, which they haven't done!!

 

[warwickcccfc]

The FL will clarify who owns what before the courts do.

You got a lot of faith there, buddy....:facepalm:

 

[Bluegloucester]

You got a lot of faith there, buddy....:facepalm:

The FL make the rules and it is up to clubs to abide by them, I cannot see the FL overturning their original decision. I have looked through the FL regulations, Mem and Arts, CCFC accounts etc and can see no reason why an appeal would be allowed.

The Administrator is not due to report to the High Court for five weeks, the FL will clarify its position before then.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

Simple answer is yes because that's when the powers that be have stipulated they all reconvene to discuss it. No party will say much, if anything, until before the decision maker(s)

 

[TheRoyalScam]

May 16th 1987 - FA Cup Winners - our finest hour!

May 16th 2013 - deadline for Administrator to report to the High Court on the state of CCFC Ltd (in administration) and proposals for the club to continue as a going concern.

Oh the irony!

 

[SkyblueBazza]

May 16th 1987 - FA Cup Winners - our finest hour!

May 16th 2013 - deadline for Administrator to report to the High Court on the state of CCFC Ltd (in administration) and proposals for the club to continue as a going concern.

Oh the irony!

...& oh the pain...