Even I must admit.... (16 Viewers)

[Grendel]

Did the neutral have us down as expected to be relegated then?

I don't know, however, given the fact the squad had been ripped apart the prior season I would say that is distinctly possible. Similarly when Reid took over the squad we had that season was truly awful. It was a miracle we survived. One thing is certain -- other than Season One we have never been considered a promotion candidate.

 

---

[dongonzalos]

The neutral never thought we were favourite to be relegate or the bookies
Till SISU said least sell and not replace and surprise the unexpected hits you between the eyes.

The neutral and the bookies said yes we will go down and we did

 

[Grendel]

The neutral never thought we were favourite to be relegate or the bookies
Till SISU said least sell and not replace and surprise the unexpected hits you between the eyes.

The neutral and the bookies said yes we will go down and we did

Well given that we had a weak squad and the worst football manager the club has ever had I agree it was inevitable.

 

[dongonzalos]

Well given that we had a weak squad and the worst football manager the club has ever had I agree it was inevitable.

Or maybe not ......

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

Ps find me a neutral who expected us to be in division 3 when we were relegated from the prem and I will find you a mermaid with a willy

As stupot stated, both 442 mag and the Guardian newspaper had us down for relegation. Preseason 11/12, most bookies had us favourites to go down.

You allude to SISU's actions getting us relegated, I'm going to disagree, had it not been for SISU 'saving us', and we took the -10 deduction, we would have been relegated the first season SISU took over, in hindsight, it may have been better to have gone into admin and take relegation. So we were nearly relegated due to SISU's predecessors' actions that nearly left us in administration. So I think this blows your theory out of the water.

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong here, and proved you have selective memory. In hindsight, relegation was inevitable and actually, bar the season we had Wise, as Grendel alluded to, we had been in relegation dogfights (not quite in the thick of it, but certainly fighting) or lower mid-table mediocracy. I'd rather us go down to L1 to rebuild and possibly return to the big time which I think is a possibility if PH4 (or acid we could call him ) is legit and is willing to spend.

 

[dongonzalos]

As stupot stated, both 442 mag and the Guardian newspaper had us down for relegation. Preseason 11/12, most bookies had us favourites to go down.

You allude to SISU's actions getting us relegated, I'm going to disagree, had it not been for SISU 'saving us', and we took the -10 deduction, we would have been relegated the first season SISU took over, in hindsight, it may have been better to have gone into admin and take relegation. So we were nearly relegated due to SISU's predecessors' actions that nearly left us in administration. So I think this blows your theory out of the water.

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong here, and proved you have selective memory. In hindsight, relegation was inevitable and actually, bar the season we had Wise, as Grendel alluded to, we had been in relegation dogfights (not quite in the thick of it, but certainly fighting) or lower mid-table mediocracy. I'd rather us go down to L1 to rebuild and possibly return to the big time which I think is a possibility if PH4 (or acid we could call him ) is legit and is willing to spend.

SBT

Re read what stupot said

What were we pre the decision by SISU to send us to division 3.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

SBT

Re read what stupot said

What were we pre the decision by SISU to send us to division 3.

What's your point? We were predicted relegation, but predictions of these sort haven't been correct on many occasion, Barnsley were always tipped for relegation yet survive (Watford were tipped to go down, yet stayed up under a good manager), and teams not tipped for relegation sometimes get relegated (if Blackburn get relegated, I can't imagine a sane person would've predicted it!) but here's something for you to digest, if it weren't FOR SISU, we would've already been relegated and in L1! So I will happily argue that SISU if anything, prevented the decline in the short-term, it's a fact that if we got the ten point deduction that season we would've been relegated, if the investment SISU put in was coupled with a good manager (not Coleman) I think we would've done well that season.

Blaming SISU for the loss of King and Westwood!? Wow, King got offered more money to play for a better team, what footballer turns that down!? If it weren't for Thorn blabbering that we had verbally signed him, then MK9 to publicly deny it, put clubs on red-alert to sign him! His 1-year contract was a risk, we couldn't have afforded him on a 2-year contract if he turned out shite, a serious risk considering he struggled for fitness when he first signed. With Westwood, you could argue we should've signed him up for 4-5 years, but A) he was a risk, could've got caught between L1/Championship standard (like McG) and B) how do we know what Westwood and his camp wanted? They might not have wanted to commit that long. It was AB's decision to keep him for the playoff push (that never happened) so he'd sign a new deal if we got promoted (never happened). He was too good for the league and Prem teams were going to try and sign him, in fact, promotion was the only way we could've re-signed him, and he signed for Sunderland in the summer on a contract we couldn't afford (I heard something stupid like 30k) how can we compete with that!? Anyway, we signed Joe Murphy who was, IMO, a satisfactory replacement, the best realistic option.

Don't let facts get in the way in your arguments :facepalm:

 

[georgehudson]

sb-t, a reasoned reply, however, consider a person(s),
who would be able to realistically converse with players / agents,
as opposed to what is the perception of an outfit that had / have only the remit to bully,
& additionally person(s) at the helm who know sfa about football,
only a thought or several,
PUSB

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

As stupot stated, both 442 mag and the Guardian newspaper had us down for relegation. Preseason 11/12, most bookies had us favourites to go down.

You allude to SISU's actions getting us relegated, I'm going to disagree, had it not been for SISU 'saving us', and we took the -10 deduction, we would have been relegated the first season SISU took over, in hindsight, it may have been better to have gone into admin and take relegation. So we were nearly relegated due to SISU's predecessors' actions that nearly left us in administration. So I think this blows your theory out of the water.

I'm sorry, but, you're wrong here, and proved you have selective memory. In hindsight, relegation was inevitable and actually, bar the season we had Wise, as Grendel alluded to, we had been in relegation dogfights (not quite in the thick of it, but certainly fighting) or lower mid-table mediocracy. I'd rather us go down to L1 to rebuild and possibly return to the big time which I think is a possibility if PH4 (or acid we could call him ) is legit and is willing to spend.

You are talking complete and utter rubbish. After relegation from the top flight we were no way near relegation candidates. It took around a decade for us to become favourites for relegation. The only pre-season that we had been amongst the favourites for relegation was last season-see the predictions quoted above. Up until then we were generally considered a mid-table side. Last season we were written off before a ball had been kicked, quite rightly, as anyone could see that the squad had lost its best players and not replaced them after struggling the season before. The loss of our best remaining player in January finished us off.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

What's your point? We were predicted relegation, but predictions of these sort haven't been correct on many occasion, Barnsley were always tipped for relegation yet survive (Watford were tipped to go down, yet stayed up under a good manager), and teams not tipped for relegation sometimes get relegated (if Blackburn get relegated, I can't imagine a sane person would've predicted it!) but here's something for you to digest, if it weren't FOR SISU, we would've already been relegated and in L1! So I will happily argue that SISU if anything, prevented the decline in the short-term, it's a fact that if we got the ten point deduction that season we would've been relegated, if the investment SISU put in was coupled with a good manager (not Coleman) I think we would've done well that season.

Blaming SISU for the loss of King and Westwood!? Wow, King got offered more money to play for a better team, what footballer turns that down!? If it weren't for Thorn blabbering that we had verbally signed him, then MK9 to publicly deny it, put clubs on red-alert to sign him! His 1-year contract was a risk, we couldn't have afforded him on a 2-year contract if he turned out shite, a serious risk considering he struggled for fitness when he first signed. With Westwood, you could argue we should've signed him up for 4-5 years, but A) he was a risk, could've got caught between L1/Championship standard (like McG) and B) how do we know what Westwood and his camp wanted? They might not have wanted to commit that long. It was AB's decision to keep him for the playoff push (that never happened) so he'd sign a new deal if we got promoted (never happened). He was too good for the league and Prem teams were going to try and sign him, in fact, promotion was the only way we could've re-signed him, and he signed for Sunderland in the summer on a contract we couldn't afford (I heard something stupid like 30k) how can we compete with that!? Anyway, we signed Joe Murphy who was, IMO, a satisfactory replacement, the best realistic option.

Don't let facts get in the way in your arguments :facepalm:

I missed your facts-all I see is opinions. Notably your assertion that SISU saved us-no they didn't. They were the only company willing to take us on not out of administration, and that's because they were too greedy to get on the Premiership gravy train to undertake the 5 year rebuilding project that was required-starting in L1 after relegation. SISU delayed the inevitable. We were an utter train wreck saddled with historic debt that needed to go into administration to have any hope of rebuilding with a clean slate. But SISU thought they could get into the top flight and sell us on for a tidy profit within two years-taking the hit of relegation when they took us on and doing it properly isn't their style.

Saved? You call this salvation? They condemned us. And the term salvation implies that there is some kind of noble, altruistic intent-that's what most sticks in the craw with such terminology; they thought they could get rich quick out of us, that's the only reason they took us on. Before anyone fires back with any "well that's the reality of capitalism" crap, yes, I know, but most capitalists looking to exploit a failing business don't claim such kind generosity in intent!

 

[valiant15]

You're wasting your breath mate,theres nothing worse than a know it all teenager,he won't listen to your side. Spoilt brat springs to mind.

 

[sky blue john]

Well given that we had a weak squad and the worst football manager the club has ever had I agree it was inevitable.

Wow thats the first time that you have ever acknowlidged that it wasn't solely Thorns fault !!!

 

[stupot07]

I missed your facts-all I see is opinions. Notably your assertion that SISU saved us-no they didn't. They were the only company willing to take us on not out of administration, and that's because they were too greedy to get on the Premiership gravy train to undertake the 5 year rebuilding project that was required-starting in L1 after relegation. SISU delayed the inevitable. We were an utter train wreck saddled with historic debt that needed to go into administration to have any hope of rebuilding with a clean slate. But SISU thought they could get into the top flight and sell us on for a tidy profit within two years-taking the hit of relegation when they took us on and doing it properly isn't their style.

Saved? You call this salvation? They condemned us. And the term salvation implies that there is some kind of noble, altruistic intent-that's what most sticks in the craw with such terminology; they thought they could get rich quick out of us, that's the only reason they took us on. Before anyone fires back with any "well that's the reality of capitalism" crap, yes, I know, but most capitalists looking to exploit a failing business don't claim such kind generosity in intent!

I may be a little confused, but haven't you been trying to argue that relegation to league 1 wasn't inevitable?

 

[covmark]

You're wasting your breath mate,theres nothing worse than a know it all teenager,he won't listen to your side. Spoilt brat springs to mind.

Haha pot and kettle spring to mind, if anyone disagrees with you they are a sisu rent boy

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Wow thats the first time that you have ever acknowlidged that it wasn't solely Thorns fault !!!

I think most of us with similar thinking would say that Thorn was ultimately blameless. It was SISU who could and should have sacked Thorn early in the season. To hold SISU culpable on that score is fair game; it is the defence of Thorn's managerial abilities which is bewildering.

 

[Colonel Mustard]

Wow thats the first time that you have ever acknowlidged that it wasn't solely Thorns fault !!!

I reckon most of us with similar thinking would say that Thorn was ultimately blameless. It was SISU who could and should have sacked Thorn early in the season. To hold SISU culpable on that score is fair game; it is the defence of Thorn's managerial abilities which is bewildering.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I may be a little confused, but haven't you been trying to argue that relegation to league 1 wasn't inevitable?

You must be confused, I've argued that relegation to L1 was inevitable from the start of last season. Or rather the end of last season's summer transfer window.

 

[dongonzalos]

What's your point? We were predicted relegation, but predictions of these sort haven't been correct on many occasion, Barnsley were always tipped for relegation yet survive (Watford were tipped to go down, yet stayed up under a good manager), and teams not tipped for relegation sometimes get relegated (if Blackburn get relegated, I can't imagine a sane person would've predicted it!) but here's something for you to digest, if it weren't FOR SISU, we would've already been relegated and in L1! So I will happily argue that SISU if anything, prevented the decline in the short-term, it's a fact that if we got the ten point deduction that season we would've been relegated, if the investment SISU put in was coupled with a good manager (not Coleman) I think we would've done well that season.

Blaming SISU for the loss of King and Westwood!? Wow, King got offered more money to play for a better team, what footballer turns that down!? If it weren't for Thorn blabbering that we had verbally signed him, then MK9 to publicly deny it, put clubs on red-alert to sign him! His 1-year contract was a risk, we couldn't have afforded him on a 2-year contract if he turned out shite, a serious risk considering he struggled for fitness when he first signed. With Westwood, you could argue we should've signed him up for 4-5 years, but A) he was a risk, could've got caught between L1/Championship standard (like McG) and B) how do we know what Westwood and his camp wanted? They might not have wanted to commit that long. It was AB's decision to keep him for the playoff push (that never happened) so he'd sign a new deal if we got promoted (never happened). He was too good for the league and Prem teams were going to try and sign him, in fact, promotion was the only way we could've re-signed him, and he signed for Sunderland in the summer on a contract we couldn't afford (I heard something stupid like 30k) how can we compete with that!? Anyway, we signed Joe Murphy who was, IMO, a satisfactory replacement, the best realistic option.

Don't let facts get in the way in your arguments :facepalm:

The point is it was never inevitable that we were to be relegated to league one.

Until that summer

 

[stupot07]

You must be confused, I've argued that relegation to L1 was inevitable from the start of last season. Or rather the end of last season's summer transfer window.

Yep, i was confused. To be honest with the mess they inherited it was always going to be inevitable.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

I missed your facts-all I see is opinions. Notably your assertion that SISU saved us-no they didn't. They were the only company willing to take us on not out of administration, and that's because they were too greedy to get on the Premiership gravy train to undertake the 5 year rebuilding project that was required-starting in L1 after relegation. SISU delayed the inevitable. We were an utter train wreck saddled with historic debt that needed to go into administration to have any hope of rebuilding with a clean slate. But SISU thought they could get into the top flight and sell us on for a tidy profit within two years-taking the hit of relegation when they took us on and doing it properly isn't their style.

Saved? You call this salvation? They condemned us. And the term salvation implies that there is some kind of noble, altruistic intent-that's what most sticks in the craw with such terminology; they thought they could get rich quick out of us, that's the only reason they took us on. Before anyone fires back with any "well that's the reality of capitalism" crap, yes, I know, but most capitalists looking to exploit a failing business don't claim such kind generosity in intent!

So MK9 and Westwood leaving was not inevitable? It's also a fact that in the season SISU came, if they hadn't took over, we most likely outlive gone into admin which would condemn us to relegation, so my assertion that if anything, they halted the decline has credibility, regardless of your views of SISU.

I put 'saved us' not saved us because the use of apostrophes was to give it a sarcastic tone, I suppose that can't really be judged when reading the text but it was kinda mocking the assertion inow we all have hindsight.

You have an identical argument to me here.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

The point is it was never inevitable that we were to be relegated to league one.

Until that summer

But we would've got relegated anyway, had SISU not come into town!

 

[dongonzalos]

But we would've got relegated anyway, had SISU not come into town!

My point is mate
When we were relegated we were like Blackburn tipped to come back up.

If was never considered by the neutral that we would go down to league one until that infamous summer.

Prior to that summer the way we finished the season people were saying keep Westwood Marlon Gunnar add a couple if others and mount a promotion campaign.

The direction the owners went from that point which they themselves have admitted was a mistake.

It was only then that people thought it is inevitable we will go down.

For me personally it was only when we sold juke.

 

[Mucca Mad Boys]

You are talking complete and utter rubbish. After relegation from the top flight we were no way near relegation candidates. It took around a decade for us to become favourites for relegation. The only pre-season that we had been amongst the favourites for relegation was last season-see the predictions quoted above. Up until then we were generally considered a mid-table side. Last season we were written off before a ball had been kicked, quite rightly, as anyone could see that the squad had lost its best players and not replaced them after struggling the season before. The loss of our best remaining player in January finished us off.

I don't blame the sale of Juke, we were effectively finished then already, and had we got relegated and he was still on the books, we would've had to sell him for peanuts.

In the championship we have finished:

02/03 - 20th, 4 off relegation
03/04 - 12th, 14 off relegation
04/05 - 19th, 2 off relegation
05/06 - 8th, 21 off relegation
06/07 - 14th, 14 off relegation
07/08 - 21st, 1 off relegation *
08/09 - 17th, 8 off relegation
09/10 - 19th, 7 off relegation
10/11 - 18th, 13 off relegation
11/12 - 23rd, relegated

As you can see, we've been consistently involved in relegation battles since relegation in all seasons but 3 seasons and were nearly relegated twice before SISU came and if it weren't for SISU, we would've got relegated in 07/08, so it seems relegation was inevitable.

 

[stupot07]

My point is mate
When we were relegated we were like Blackburn tipped to come back up.

If was never considered by the neutral that we would go down to league one until that infamous summer.

Prior to that summer the way we finished the season people were saying keep Westwood Marlon Gunnar add a couple if others and mount a promotion campaign.

The direction the owners went from that point which they themselves have admitted was a mistake.

It was only then that people thought it is inevitable we will go down.

For me personally it was only when we sold juke.

We were only tipped to come back up in the first season after relegation.

When we sold juke we were bottom. With 19 points from 26 games - 0.73 points per game.

Post juke we piled up 21 points in 20 games - 1.05 points per game.

As much as I was angry to see juke go, our results improved when he left.

Maybe if our 'potential' 30k supporters turned up more regularly, we wouldn't have been put in that position.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Yep, i was confused. To be honest with the mess they inherited it was always going to be inevitable.

Who inherited? Now I'm confused..

 

[stupot07]

Who inherited? Now I'm confused..

Sisu. On the verge admin/liquidation, high rent, no match day income, large wage bill, little assets, money owed to creditors, £30m debt.

These are all things that they failed to sort out, but like you said in an earlier thread, it needed clearing the decks, and rebuilding which would inevitably would have to happen in league one.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

I don't blame the sale of Juke, we were effectively finished then already, and had we got relegated and he was still on the books, we would've had to sell him for peanuts.

In the championship we have finished:

02/03 - 20th, 4 off relegation
03/04 - 12th, 14 off relegation
04/05 - 19th, 2 off relegation
05/06 - 8th, 21 off relegation
06/07 - 14th, 14 off relegation
07/08 - 21st, 1 off relegation *
08/09 - 17th, 8 off relegation
09/10 - 19th, 7 off relegation
10/11 - 18th, 13 off relegation
11/12 - 23rd, relegated

As you can see, we've been consistently involved in relegation battles since relegation in all seasons but 3 seasons and were nearly relegated twice before SISU came and if it weren't for SISU, we would've got relegated in 07/08, so it seems relegation was inevitable.

I'd say 2 of those count as "involved in relegation". Your "stats" really don't back up your argument that "relegation was inevitable without SISU". It would have been in the season they bought us due to adminstration, but that was the only time. Maybe you should have a look at the number of seasons where we ended dreadfully as we had nothing to play for?

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Sisu. On the verge admin/liquidation, high rent, no match day income, large wage bill, little assets, money owed to creditors, £30m debt.

These are all things that they failed to sort out, but like you said in an earlier thread, it needed clearing the decks, and rebuilding which would inevitably would have to happen in league one.

And much more easily with a prospect of long term success if it had been via administration.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

We were only tipped to come back up in the first season after relegation.

When we sold juke we were bottom. With 19 points from 26 games - 0.73 points per game.

Post juke we piled up 21 points in 20 games - 1.05 points per game.

As much as I was angry to see juke go, our results improved when he left.

Maybe if our 'potential' 30k supporters turned up more regularly, we wouldn't have been put in that position.

Fractionally but that was more down to the impact of Norwood. We still didn't have a striker of Championship class. To have any hope, we needed one. They sold him. If it had been Lukas with Norwood, we may have had a chance. But no, SISU cashed in on an asset, relegation costing them more than they got for him. Doh! :facepalm:

 

[stupot07]

And much more easily with a prospect of long term success if it had been via administration.

Yep....we needed an abromavich, we didnt get one. The money was always going to run out.

 

[stupot07]

Fractionally but that was more down to the impact of Norwood. We still didn't have a striker of Championship class. To have any hope, we needed one. They sold him. If it had been Lukas with Norwood, we may have had a chance. But no, SISU cashed in on an asset, relegation costing them more than they got for him. Doh! :facepalm:

It's a difficult one though...we're losing £6m per year in the championship, and although we have lost £4-5m through relegation, we were anticipating only £3m losses this season. In a way we're actually £3m better off.

 

[Nonleagueherewecome]

Through having to slash the wage bill? Classic SISU Masterplan stuff that...if you were trying to get a club relegated, you really couldn't have done much more than they did. I include KD in that.

 

[stupot07]

Through having to slash the wage bill? Classic SISU Masterplan stuff that...if you were trying to get a club relegated, you really couldn't have done much more than they did. I include KD in that.

Which is why admin and 10 point deduction and relegation prior to them taking over in hindsight would have been a better move.

I didn't like it, and I don't like being in this league but the bottom line is we need to maximise income and reduce outgoings to balance the books going forward.

 

[RichieGunns]

Well that was torterous reading there.

Venky's are just another example of owners who don't know how to run a football club!

Jack Walker would be turning in his grave if he could see what they've done to his beloved club!

 

[stupot07]

Well that was torterous reading there.

Venky's are just another example of owners who don't know how to run a football club!

Jack Walker would be turning in his grave if he could see what they've done to his beloved club!

You could argue that Jack Walker buying the title was the very start of the boom or bust ethos to football ownership.