CET: Sky Blues take Coventry City Council to high court over bailout (22 Viewers)

RegTheDonk

Well-Known Member
Don't think it would make any difference what he said Don, he won't be bothered if he's confronted by a "well, previously you said..." etc, he'll just say the situation has changed so now we're going down another route.

Now, IF he'd shook hands on it..... :whistle:
 

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
here we go again...more sentiment and accusation instead of looking at facts or what was actually said. When faced with a legal situation you just can't be throwing out your own sentiments as though they were fact.

I didn't imply I want SISU in control?
SISU's rent boycott is a matter for them and how they wish to do business is for them. many companies will deal underhandedly to get what they are after, so long as it's legal.
I never talked about finding money to build a new stadium? You are reading what you want to hear!
If there are interested parties - then where are they and where were they? If you are so sure name them!
ACL was not formed to specifically include the club. This is false.



I cannot for the life of me fathom why you want SISU to retain control of the club at any cost. So many things which happened in the past which you're forgetting on top:

1. SISU are the ones who initiated a rent boycott without bothering to negotiate first. At the same time, the ARVO charge was filed-strongly hints that the only aim was to bust ACL.

2. Where exactly do you think we can find the money to build a new ground? Even if we can, it will take years to build and leaves us having to groundshare in the meantime-a guaranteed crowd killer if ever there was one.

3. SISU have only themselves to blame for their terrible running of the club for the last 6 years. There are interested parties, contrary to some on here, and so they are capable of recouping some of their losses through a takeover.

4. ACL was formed specifically to include the club-McGinnity not only sold our 50% share in it but also demanded that we have the fixed rental price of £1.3m which shouldn't fluctuate with league status.

There's only one guilty party here and it's not the council.
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
Don't think it would make any difference what he said Don, he won't be bothered if he's confronted by a "well, previously you said..." etc, he'll just say the situation has changed so now we're going down another route.

Now, IF he'd shook hands on it..... :whistle:

May be relevant in court proceedings
 

RPHunt

New Member
Just had an interesting chat with a corporate lawyer with one of the international firms in the City. In the absence of any detail and as the lawyer's experience does not cover local government, this is informed opinion rather than legal opinion.

The main point to come out of this opinion was the the complainant must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the other party have adversely effected the complainant. In other words, CCFC Holdings must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the council have harmed Holdings.

So, are Holdings prepared to stand up in court and say they were attempting to distress the landlord of their subsidiary company by withholding rent so that they could step in and buy the assets of the landlord at a knockdown price and that the actions of the council prevented this?
Do they have another reason why they were adversely effected?
Or is this whole thing just more SISU bluster?
 

dongonzalos

Well-Known Member
Just had an interesting chat with a corporate lawyer with one of the international firms in the City. In the absence of any detail and as the lawyer's experience does not cover local government, this is informed opinion rather than legal opinion.

The main point to come out of this opinion was the the complainant must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the other party have adversely effected the complainant. In other words, CCFC Holdings must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the council have harmed Holdings.

So, are Holdings prepared to stand up in court and say they were attempting to distress the landlord of their subsidiary company by withholding rent so that they could step in and buy the assets of the landlord at a knockdown price and that the actions of the council prevented this?
Do they have another reason why they were adversely effected?
Or is this whole thing just more SISU bluster?

Hence the relevance of statement from SISU saying that the decision by the council did not affected them at all.
 

RPHunt

New Member
Hence the relevance of statement from SISU saying that the decision by the council did not affected them at all.

It could be. They could claim they were trying to destabilize ACL and had to say that at the time - depends on how low they are prepared to stoop -
 

@richh87

Member
If there are interested parties - then where are they and where were they? If you are so sure name them!
ACL was not formed to specifically include the club. This is false.

Have you gone mental Paxman? Erm Preston Haskell??
 

WFC

New Member
Just had an interesting chat with a corporate lawyer with one of the international firms in the City. In the absence of any detail and as the lawyer's experience does not cover local government, this is informed opinion rather than legal opinion.

The main point to come out of this opinion was the the complainant must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the other party have adversely effected the complainant. In other words, CCFC Holdings must be able to demonstrate that the actions of the council have harmed Holdings.

So, are Holdings prepared to stand up in court and say they were attempting to distress the landlord of their subsidiary company by withholding rent so that they could step in and buy the assets of the landlord at a knockdown price and that the actions of the council prevented this?
Do they have another reason why they were adversely effected?
Or is this whole thing just more SISU bluster?

That would be the case where someone is claiming against another, ie one party suing another but that's not quite what's happening here. I know there have been headlines/titles like CCFC sue CCC but theybare actually inaccurate.

What has been set in motion is a judicial review which is different. Where public money is involved any one could file for such, e.g if I think that funding provided for something from the public purse was provide outside of what regulations allow I could seek a judicial review to get a legally binding judgement on whether it is legal or not regardless of whether I have personally lost out in anyway. They will not have to prove they have incurred any losses, they will not at this point be seeking any damages just a judgement that suits their purposes.

Although it's a court case as such it really should be referred to as a judicial review as it's not really like most court case most of us would be familiar with like in the case your lawyer friend is referring to.
 

Brighton Sky Blue

Well-Known Member
here we go again...more sentiment and accusation instead of looking at facts or what was actually said. When faced with a legal situation you just can't be throwing out your own sentiments as though they were fact.

I didn't imply I want SISU in control?
SISU's rent boycott is a matter for them and how they wish to do business is for them. many companies will deal underhandedly to get what they are after, so long as it's legal.
I never talked about finding money to build a new stadium? You are reading what you want to hear!
If there are interested parties - then where are they and where were they? If you are so sure name them!
ACL was not formed to specifically include the club. This is false.

I see you subscribe to the Grendel philosophy towards business-'Contracts are there to be broken'. It is unfortunately a fact that SISU initiated a rent boycott in violation of a legally binding agreement and that decision is what has ultimately led us to the current position. It is also a fact that SISU made no formal attempt to negotiate the rent prior to the boycott-ACL's offer in spite of these events has shown huge flexibility on their part to get the deal done which would keep the City at the Ricoh.

As for interested parties-don't think I need to address that. Finally-ACL was formed with the club given a 50% stake in the venture; this is a fact, plain and simple. We sold the stake holding under McGinnity and signed up to a £1.3m rent which would stay at that level regardless of circumstance.

The real Paxman wouldn't be seen dead getting his facts so horribly wrong.
 

RPHunt

New Member
That would be the case where someone is claiming against another, ie one party suing another but that's not quite what's happening here. I know there have been headlines/titles like CCFC sue CCC but theybare actually inaccurate.

What has been set in motion is a judicial review which is different. Where public money is involved any one could file for such, e.g if I think that funding provided for something from the public purse was provide outside of what regulations allow I could seek a judicial review to get a legally binding judgement on whether it is legal or not regardless of whether I have personally lost out in anyway. They will not have to prove they have incurred any losses, they will not at this point be seeking any damages just a judgement that suits their purposes.

Although it's a court case as such it really should be referred to as a judicial review as it's not really like most court case most of us would be familiar with like in the case your lawyer friend is referring to.

Just to be clear here, my informant was well aware that this was a request for a judicial review and was quite specific that any party requesting one must be able to prove that they have been directly effected. This point was specifically made and hence why I highlighted it.
 
J

Jack Griffin

Guest
This is more of a technical move, based on the wording of a European directive not based on reality or reason or benefit to the community, trouble is the law is an ass.
 

WFC

New Member
Just to be clear here, my informant was well aware that this was a request for a judicial review and was quite specific that any party requesting one must be able to prove that they have been directly effected. This point was specifically made and hence why I highlighted it.

Fair enough wasn't my understanding, but your friend is more qualified than me in this area so is probably better placed to give a view.
 

Paxman II

Well-Known Member
Haskell has not to my knowledge made any formal offer or otherwise? We have been down this road plenty of times including Hoffman who ultimately seems to talk the talk and never make the walk? Now we have the same protagonist including uncle Joe trying again in some sort of way? Nothing on the table and looking extremely unlikely too if I was to take a stab. Are their more?

ACL was not formed in the way suggested. Please study it properly. The football club may have had a 50% share they sold to Higgs but that was not the original layout. The lease holder is ACL and always was.
 

DazzleTommyDazzle

Well-Known Member
Haskell has not to my knowledge made any formal offer or otherwise? We have been down this road plenty of times including Hoffman who ultimately seems to talk the talk and never make the walk? Now we have the same protagonist including uncle Joe trying again in some sort of way? Nothing on the table and looking extremely unlikely too if I was to take a stab. Are their more?
QUOTE]

It was reported that the "Hoffman camp" had formally registered their interest with the administrator.

Not sure what more you'd expect at this stage, particularly given the uncertainty of what exactly sits in each of the legal entities.

I've no doubt you'd be the first to (rightly) criticise, if they made a "formal offer" of £x million without being aware of what they were bidding for.
 

YamYam

New Member
I am not a lawyer (only a law student) and, although a Saddler, I come in peace...

Some points to note:

I'm not going to quote the various parts of this length thread, but:

1. There has been criticism that ACL has refused to meet CCFC(H) Ltd. I don't know if they have or haven't; but they have no reason to meet them and a meeting would only confuse matters.

It is now established (by the Football League/FA; subject to what transpires at next hearing in the administration case in May) that the Football Club is CCFC Ltd. CCFC Ltd is now in administration and being run by an independent administrator, approved by the High Court and operating under the Insolvency Act.

CCFC(H) Ltd therefore have no business trying to meet with ACL to discuss issues such as where CCFC Ltd will do business next year: they cannot interfere with the work of the administrator. They may own CCFC Ltd; but owners lose control when a company is in administration.

2. In order to apply for a judicial review, a person ("person" includes a company) has to show a sufficient interest in the proceedings. This will be difficult but not impossible. They will, presumably, argue that ownership of a company with a contract with ACL gives them sufficient interest; but the law recognises what it calls the "veil of incorporation" - CCFC Ltd and CCFC(H) Ltd are two distinct entities. CCFC Ltd has a stronger interest than CCFC(H) Ltd; but this doesn't mean that CCFC(H) Ltd has no claim.

2a Incidentally, the High Court can (rarely) lift the veil of incorporation in it feels that two companies have been trading, for all intents and purposes, as if they were just one. I can't say that this is the case here; but I think that sufficient comments have come out from "the club" and/or its various owners to suggest that the administrator will news to look at this. It is a possibility - I'll say no stronger than that - that the High Court in May could declare that CCFC Ltd and CCFC(H) Ltd are one-and-the-same and both are in administration. If that happens the Judicial Review proceedings would only be able to take place with the consent I the administrator.

3. The original report spoke of an "appeal" to the High Court for judicial review. This is sloppy journalism and just factually wrong regarding the procedures.

A claimant applies for judicial review on paper. A single judge will review the paper and decide whether the claim is in time; whether the claimant has sufficient interest and whether he has an arguable case (not the same as a "strong" case). If yes, the matter proceeds to a hearing (a respondent can't appeal this decision).

If the judge says no, and refuses permission for judicial review, the claimant can request (but is not always granted) an oral hearing to request permission.

This latter stage is often referred to as an appeal against a refusal - so perhaps the wording of the article should be taken as suggesting that permission has already been refused? Or, perhaps it's just a poor use of words (sports journalists aren't legal journalists).

4. An application for judicial review must be made expeditiously (quickly) and in any event no later than three months from the decision in question. It must also be a matter of last resort - the person bringing the claim must have exhausted all non-legal routes to satisfaction.

5. Finally, in terms of outcome, I don't want to second-guess the judges (dangerous!); but in terms of outcome: IF the judges find the council acted unlawfully, they can award damages (but I can't see how either SISU or CCFC(H) Ltd can argue that they've suffered any loss by the decision); they can make an injunction or a prohibiting order (but the action decided by the Council in this case has already happened); they can make a mandatory order (but that's not applicable because it isn't being argues that the council isn't doing what they should be doing).

This leaves two options:

A quashing order: this would reverse the decision; but I can't see the court deciding this because the action has been made. They can't order the bank to reimpose the loan because the bank isn't a party to the proceedings.

A declaration: this is, in my view, the more likely outcome (assuming the court finds against the council); and is the courts way of saying "you're a very naughty boy". A declaration would set out what the legal decision/position of the parties ought to be, but has no real impact on the decision.

Finally, no money will have come from the council's revenue account (which pays for public services: schools, care homes, pothole repairs, etc).

Councils are large bodies with big funds which they have to invest. Would you prefer your council invested its money in some poorly regulated Icelandic Bank( or in a scheme that the council half owns?

Finally, Finally: The Government has established a "prudential borrowing" scheme for local authorities; providing money that can be spent on a variety of purposes, including regeneration schemes, improving leisure facilities, encouraging local businesses. The Ricoh would, to my mind, qualify for support even if it wasn't part-owned by the council.

Details: http://www.local.gov.uk/c/document_...c3b-d869-417d-8953-38c614e574ff&groupId=10171

And, really finally! ACL can't just write off the existing debt. It is half owned by a charitable trust. The trustees would be acting in breach of their duties under charity law were they to do so unless they sought the permission of the Charity Commission. The figures involved are so great that I don't think that the Commission would give consent without an approval order from the High Court.

(Incidentally, if the council-half of the owners agreed to write off the rental debt; wouldn't that amount to state-aid to CCFC Ltd of the kind that CCFC(H) Ltd now complain off?
 

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