If ACL forced the liquidation.. (7 Viewers)

[Diehard Si]

One of the scenarios that could play out is ACL block the CVA.

Could one of the outcomes therefore be that PH4 buys the stadium and the liquidated club starts a few divisions down in 1 year years? Conference perhaps based on our size?

Joe Elliott did say this week that PH4 remains keen.

Would people prefer this mess to the current mess? A whole year with no ccfc but losing Sisu and a fresh debt free start?

 

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[RogerH]

I think that reluctantly more people are beginning to think that it has to be a SISU free future,and are prepared to endure the pain to achieve that

 

[wozey]

I think that reluctantly more people are beginning to think that it has to be a SISU free future,and are prepared to endure the pain to achieve that

I'm not prepared to endure that at all and anyone that wants that is affectively wanting the club to die and take its history with it

 

[dadgad]

Well, it is a real choice.
Sisu are banking on Cov fans preferring their club rather than one free of them (Sisu).
Some might say they are bullying fans with this interpretation - Hobson's Choice.
How deep is the fans' resolve?

 

[blend]

The club is already dying so maybe it's not the worst solution. Hard to see any positives at present.

 

[magic82ball]

Wozey, I understand your view point and no one wants the club to die, but to a lot of people there is no real alternative. SISU have already killed the club in so many fans eyes and the sooner we start again, the sooner we get our club back.

 

[wozey]

Wozey, I understand your view point and no one wants the club to die, but to a lot of people there is no real alternative. SISU have already killed the club in so many fans eyes and the sooner we start again, the sooner we get our club back.

No easy answer to this one at all really I guess but I really don't want to start over unless that was the only option all party's need to sort this out and save the club and not be thinking about starting over just yet

 

[Samo]

If it's liquidated its gone, there's nothing to buy.

 

[magic82ball]

No easy answer to this one at all really I guess but I really don't want to start over unless that was the only option all party's need to sort this out and save the club and not be thinking about starting over just yet

Then I think it comes down to weather you truly believe/trust in SISU to do the right thing, keep to their word of returning us to Cov and to manage the club properly OR do you believe they have shown over and over they are not to be trusted and have a complete ineptitude in running a football club. If you have faith, that they will at least try harder and learn from mistakes then I can understand wanting to stick with them, unfortunately for SISU, they have failed so many times. Starting a new club would be a pre empting SISU's failure, but given past performance its about as certain as Usain Bolt beating me at the 100m.

 

[wozey]

Then I think it comes down to weather you truly believe/trust in SISU to do the right thing, keep to their word of returning us to Cov and to manage the club properly OR do you believe they have shown over and over they are not to be trusted and have a complete ineptitude in running a football club. If you have faith, that they will at least try harder and learn from mistakes then I can understand wanting to stick with them, unfortunately for SISU, they have failed so many times. Starting a new club would be a pre empting SISU's failure, but given past performance its about as certain as Usain Bolt beating me at the 100m.

I don't trust them at all but what choice do we have they hold the power not us and we can argue till we are blue in the face and point out how wrong they are but as long as the club exists you've got to have hope I admit not much hope exists but if its still alive everyone needs to focus on a solution. Yes probably the sort of good will sisu are wanting but really don't deserve

 

[Godiva]

I wouldn't count on a 'sisu-free' future even if ACL rejects the CVA.
Holdings still own the players and this 'beneficial ownership' is an unkonwn factor noone should dismiss.

I think the outcome of a non-CVA would be that the FL will still grant the golden share to Otium.
Limited will be liquidated - and that would probably happen anyway.

The club will start at -15 point but seeing the core of the squad is still there and with a few exciting additions we would probably end in a similar position to last season (where we lost 10 points).

The only real loser would be ACL.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

If it's liquidated its gone, there's nothing to buy.

Funny thing is that this is precisely what TF said about CCFC Ltd. Then his paymasters came in with a substantially higher bid than anyone else...for what exactly?
Maybe in the circumstances of liquidation, the FL (in order to overcome their biggest fear - clubs not fulfilling fixtures) would manipulate their own rules (as tey seem willing & able to do) very rapidly allow a new owner of ACL/Ricoh to transfer all contracts & registrations & the Golden Share & everything else necessary to them for a new ready-made, newly named Ricoh-based Coventry (whatever) FC.

 

[Jack Griffin]

I wouldn't count on a 'sisu-free' future even if ACL rejects the CVA.
Holdings still own the players and this 'beneficial ownership' is an unkonwn factor noone should dismiss.

I think the outcome of a non-CVA would be that the FL will still grant the golden share to Otium.
Limited will be liquidated - and that would probably happen anyway.

The club will start at -15 point but seeing the core of the squad is still there and with a few exciting additions we would probably end in a similar position to last season (where we lost 10 points).

The only real loser would be ACL.

Turnover down to £2M, FFP prevents signing any experienced players.
On the radio last night Pressley said they'll be looking in the Conference for new players.
TF said they won't be signing any players before kick off.

This season will be a relegation battle.

 

[Godiva]

Funny thing is that this is precisely what TF said about CCFC Ltd. Then his paymasters came in with a substantially higher bid than anyone else...for what exactly?
Maybe in the circumstances of liquidation, the FL (in order to overcome their biggest fear - clubs not fulfilling fixtures) would manipulate their own rules (as tey seem willing & able to do) very rapidly allow a new owner of ACL/Ricoh to transfer all contracts & registrations & the Golden Share & everything else necessary to them for a new ready-made, newly named Ricoh-based Coventry (whatever) FC.

I am sorry, but you're dreaming.
FL cannot transfer players contracts - they are owned by Holdings.

The only way FL can be sure the club can fullfill it's fixtures is by allowing groundshare (done already). Then they can do nothing until Limited comes out of administration or is being liquidated.

As suggested by many - including ACL - it may be well into the next season before there is a resolution. At that time the FL cannot really grant the Golden share to anyone but Otium. Time is not on the side of ACL - even if their actions and statements suggest it is.

 

[chiefdave]

Why is Fisher running around saying if ACL reject the CVA it's liquidation, did I miss the announcement where he was put in charge of the administration process? If the CVA isn't approved surely it goes back to Appleton to either get an improved offer from his preferred bidder, select another bidder or push on without a CVA?

What I'm not sure about is how PA can sell bits of Ltd while in administration? Is this normal practice, surely that means if it does come back to another round of bidding there's pretty much nothing left to bid on, how can that be right when one of the aims of admin is to secure a future for ltd as an ongoing business?

 

[Godiva]

Turnover down to £2M, FFP prevents signing any experienced players.
On the radio last night Pressley said they'll be looking in the Conference for new players.
TF said they won't be signing any players before kick off.

This season will be a relegation battle.

You do know that increase in equity counts as turnover in the FFP calculation?
This means that the necessary funding can be put in as equity - as opposed to loans.
It also means the owners can convert some of the loans to equity to increase the FFP budget.

They won't be signing players until the clubs transfer embargo is lifted. And that may well take 5-6 weeks. Or more.

 

[chiefdave]

FL cannot transfer players contracts - they are owned by Holdings.

has it yet been established if the transfer of players from ltd to holdings was authorised by the FL? if there's no valid player registrations for the players in holdings then the contracts themselves mean nothing don't they?

 

[Godiva]

Why is Fisher running around saying if ACL reject the CVA it's liquidation, did I miss the announcement where he was put in charge of the administration process? If the CVA isn't approved surely it goes back to Appleton to either get an improved offer from his preferred bidder, select another bidder or push on without a CVA?

What I'm not sure about is how PA can sell bits of Ltd while in administration? Is this normal practice, surely that means if it does come back to another round of bidding there's pretty much nothing left to bid on, how can that be right when one of the aims of admin is to secure a future for ltd as an ongoing business?

Because if ACL rejects the CVA there is no real option to sisu but liquidation of Limited. Otherwise the administration can be dragged out for ever.
So it's really a message to ACL: Take what you can or write off your losses. Choice is ACL's.

 

[Godiva]

has it yet been established if the transfer of players from ltd to holdings was authorised by the FL? if there's no valid player registrations for the players in holdings then the contracts themselves mean nothing don't they?

I would expect Appelton has established where the contracts are and have reported his findings to FL.

 

[SkyblueBazza]

I am sorry, but you're dreaming.
FL cannot transfer players contracts - they are owned by Holdings.

The only way FL can be sure the club can fullfill it's fixtures is by allowing groundshare (done already). Then they can do nothing until Limited comes out of administration or is being liquidated.

As suggested by many - including ACL - it may be well into the next season before there is a resolution. At that time the FL cannot really grant the Golden share to anyone but Otium. Time is not on the side of ACL - even if their actions and statements suggest it is.

Not dreaming, I believe it is all already done & dusted...just trying to offer a possible alternative solution if someone else's dream comes to fruition.
Also, surely in liquidation - the player contracts could be sold to the new ACL/Ricoh owners? That aids the FL as there is a ready-made solution to their worry in the matter.

 

[magic82ball]

I don't trust them at all but what choice do we have they hold the power not us and we can argue till we are blue in the face and point out how wrong they are but as long as the club exists you've got to have hope I admit not much hope exists but if its still alive everyone needs to focus on a solution. Yes probably the sort of good will sisu are wanting but really don't deserve

And that last sentence is exactly why people are boycotting. If you have a cancer it needs to be cut out not given the oxygen it needs to grow bigger. Boycott and you may be right and the club as we know it does die. But, and it is a massive BUT for most people, at least you will have your pride and morals in tact. I for one would be prepared to sacrifice the club as we know it to show Joy and Fisher that people like them cannot ride rough-shot over the little people whenever it suits them, playing fast and lose with communities and institutions, and I would hope others would stand up to the bullies too. The day they walk out of town (Northampton that is) having done their money is the day I will be smiling from ear to ear. Feel free to disagree and most do, but that's just the strength of feeling I have on the matter.

 

[Jack Griffin]

You do know that increase in equity counts as turnover in the FFP calculation?
This means that the necessary funding can be put in as equity - as opposed to loans.
It also means the owners can convert some of the loans to equity to increase the FFP budget.

They won't be signing players until the clubs transfer embargo is lifted. And that may well take 5-6 weeks. Or more.

Timmy said he had no alternative, suddenly you find one, to run at a greater loss.

Debt to equity means someone has to put money in & effectively write it off as the equity is worthless. ointlaugh:

It is more likely next season is a planned relegation.

 

[Godiva]

Not dreaming, I believe it is all already done & dusted...just trying to offer a possible alternative solution if someone else's dream comes to fruition.
Also, surely in liquidation - the player contracts could be sold to the new ACL/Ricoh owners? That aids the FL as there is a ready-made solution to their worry in the matter.

Yes, sisu could sell the contracts to new owners, but they will not! Have we not yet learned that they are NOT selling anytime soon?
The will play the 'beneficiary ownership' card and nobody fully knows what that means. All everyone know is if the FL decide to ignore it, then they will hear from sisu's lawyers pretty fast.

 

[Godiva]

Timmy said he had no alternative, suddenly you find one, to run at a greater loss.

Debt to equity means someone has to put money in & effectively write it off as the equity is worthless. ointlaugh:

It is more likely next season is a planned relegation.

And you did hear Fisher say that the owners already have written off the value of the loans in their books?
So no additional loss in converting worthless loans to worthless shares.

 

[Samo]

Yes, sisu could sell the contracts to new owners, but they will not! Have we not yet learned that they are NOT selling anytime soon?
The will play the 'beneficiary ownership' card and nobody fully knows what that means. All everyone know is if the FL decide to ignore it, then they will hear from sisu's lawyers pretty fast.[/QUOTE]

Godiva, there has been some discussion on another thread around the FL's rule that no club can sue them. (Apparently Leeds made noises and the FL threatened to withdraw the share) What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Senior Vick from Alicante]

Liquidation is a real possibility. We will know more after ACL have had their meeting with the league on Monday, this will go a long way towards giving them either the reassurances or answers to the way they play out their next move. If they are able to block the CVA look at a 15 point deduction and make sure the club plays in the city it would be well worth it. They may also be looking at how the league would react to the club if it was made insolvent but had everything set up to fulfil its obligations and fixtures as with Rangers did with the newco. PUSB

 

[duffer]

Yes, sisu could sell the contracts to new owners, but they will not! Have we not yet learned that they are NOT selling anytime soon?
The will play the 'beneficiary ownership' card and nobody fully knows what that means. All everyone know is if the FL decide to ignore it, then they will hear from sisu's lawyers pretty fast.[/QUOTE]

Godiva, there has been some discussion on another thread around the FL's rule that no club can sue them. (Apparently Leeds made noises and the FL threatened to withdraw the share) What are your thoughts on this?

The FL can be sued, Stevenage did it a while back when they were denied promotion. They didn't win, and the judgement was basically along the lines that the injured party would have to show that the FL's rules were 'capricious' and/or 'arbitrary', or that they had been applied in that way.

I think, and this is just mho, that ACL actually have a better case agaisnt the FL on this basis than SISU, if the FL allow the SISU 'plan' to go ahead. There are a number of places where it seems the FL are bending or breaking their own rules to allow the Northampton deal to happen.

As for the CVA being voted down, I'd rather take the chance on that than SISU being allowed to continue. If there's a willing buyer still in place for CCFC Ltd, then I think there's also scope for legal challenge against the Administrator's decision if he subsequently decides to go for liquidation. Liquidation also brings the threat of a thorough investigation into the directors' affairs, something that I'm not sure TF would really fancy either.

There's a long way to go on this yet I think, and it's hard to see a scenario where there isn't either some kind of negotiated settlement (even if only temporary), or a court case to sort it all out.

 

[skybluehugh]

I think that reluctantly more people are beginning to think that it has to be a SISU free future,and are prepared to endure the pain to achieve that

I am one of these I'm afraid. I can not see any other way to get our club back.

 

[dazzabulldog]

Otium won't be able to liquidate ccfc Ltd as the golden share is held there. I don't think the football league would allow it to be transferred without good reason. With the current situation with fraud investigations and deception being mentioned looks like sisu are stuffed. acl is threatening to sue because it has a contract that still stands while Ltd is still in operation and as long as Ltd own the golden share there's no way of ccfc or sisu/otium backing out.

 

[Godiva]

Otium won't be able to liquidate ccfc Ltd as the golden share is held there. I don't think the football league would allow it to be transferred without good reason. With the current situation with fraud investigations and deception being mentioned looks like sisu are stuffed. acl is threatening to sue because it has a contract that still stands while Ltd is still in operation and as long as Ltd own the golden share there's no way of ccfc or sisu/otium backing out.

The golden share is with the FL. It will decide who it will be issued to. Limited has first right, but if Limited is being liquidated the share has to be transferred. Otium may then be the natural choice as they have bought all assets and are taking over the players from Limited.

The rumors of fraud and illegal dealings are just that - rumors. There are no ongoing investigation, though someone may ask for one if they have substantial evidence to support their claim.
The rumors have been started by someone, surely not the administrator or sisu or Fisher. So who has an interest in starting such a rumor?
Neither the FL or the courts will react to rumors.

ACL are not threatening to sue, they consider taking any decision made by the administrator or the FL to the courts.

 

[Warwickhunt]

One of the scenarios that could play out is ACL block the CVA.

Could one of the outcomes therefore be that PH4 buys the stadium and the liquidated club starts a few divisions down in 1 year years? Conference perhaps based on our size?

Joe Elliott did say this week that PH4 remains keen.

Would people prefer this mess to the current mess? A whole year with no ccfc but losing Sisu and a fresh debt free start?

 

[Warwickhunt]

If ACL block the CVA the administrator would liquidate the company that has the rental agreement and as such the club will remain as is without a home ground?

 

[skybluehugh]

If ACL block the CVA the administrator would liquidate the company that has the rental agreement and as such the club will remain as is without a home ground?

That is no the only option he would have. But I agree he may well take the orders from SHITSU, but would have to answer to the court why he didn't try to re-sell the club.

 

[TheRoyalScam]

The golden share is with the FL. It will decide who it will be issued to. Limited has first right, but if Limited is being liquidated the share has to be transferred. Otium may then be the natural choice as they have bought all assets and are taking over the players from Limited.

The rumors of fraud and illegal dealings are just that - rumors. There are no ongoing investigation, though someone may ask for one if they have substantial evidence to support their claim.
The rumors have been started by someone, surely not the administrator or sisu or Fisher. So who has an interest in starting such a rumor?
Neither the FL or the courts will react to rumors.

ACL are not threatening to sue, they consider taking any decision made by the administrator or the FL to the courts.

Surely the players were in CCFC Ltd (with the GS), but now they're mysteriously in CCFC (Holdings) - this is why there are allegations of asset stripping and fraud (allegedly).

 

[Godiva]

Surely the players were in CCFC Ltd (with the GS), but now they're mysteriously in CCFC (Holdings) - this is why there are allegations of asset stripping and fraud (allegedly).

I did mean Holdings ... sorry.

Still, allegations are not proof.
Fisher could not move assets, it would require at least the corporation with the accountants, the finance director and possibly the auditors.
Somebody inside the group and below top management would know - and tell somebody else. It would spread wide and fast, and it hasn't.