Regardless of 'ownership'! (3 Viewers)

[stupot07]

But weren't they supposed to have put the breaks on that? Well they didn't did they instead they put their foot flat to the gas and that is why we are where we are

Agreed they should have a) bought 1/2 Ricoh or at least renegotiated rent and F&B's, and b) slashed the wage bill right at the start. Costs need to be got under control and they didn't do it.

 

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[Paxman II]

Any new ground will be constructed by a developer who will raise the capital. The caveat to this is SISU/football club will then pay the mortgage. That mortgage will be far less than the 1.3m rent they were paying to ACL for a rented pitch.

CCFC/SISU will own the new stadium freehold and an increasing asset. ALL revenue streams will be received. Other activities such as concerts, F&B and then some will also be all the clubs.

SISU know we will not be rushing back to the big time for a number of years at best, maybe 5, 10 years unless there is some fantastic performances and luck. So this plan is the only way to recoup their investment. Once they stabilize the club in say the Championship again with a new stadium they will finally have their get out clause and the club with the stadium will sell for some 60m upwards easily.

The debt everyone says is already heaped on the football club is nonsense. paper and more paper trail and largely written down/off.

Now ask yourself will you pay rent for a pitch to play on when you could have your own if you are prepared to take some short term heartbreak to get it?

None of this is rocket science.

The only alternative is some ownership or long lease term in the Rocoh to provide an equivalent exit strategy but it seems up to now the council refuse to recognise this simple fact. It's never been about the rent on it's own. The 1.3m was extortion and the level ACL offered at 400k proved this fact. It moved on from there to the future of the football club which needs revenue from the stadium it plays in from the customers it provides to help sustain it's very survival.

SISU may have played hard ball and be seen to be inflexible and uncaring but I have not seen any action from the council that has been very different.

Perhaps now with new talks being suggested in progress there will be a final coming together and a way forward at the Ricoh arena?

 

[The Penguin]

No it's not! Who's been paying ALL the wages? Who paid for the 'Training Camp'? If things don't change and we don't own our own ground and receive ALL revenue streams (under FIFA Fair Play Rules, our Club will NOT EXIST), just ask Mark Robins, Paul Fletcher, Ray Ranson, Geoffrey Robinson and NUMEROUS OTHERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's all very well and good, but we are going to spend the next five years not owning our own ground, not receiving ALL revenue streams, and doing it all to miniscule crowds, thereby cutting our annual revenue from ticket sales and merchandising down to the bone.

And we're supposed to be grateful for that?

 

[The Penguin]

e

That's not actually known though is it, it's just something that's gained the currency of truth by being repeated... repeatedly.

I think it is a conclusion drawn from Fisher's non-answer when asked at a forum whether we would actually own any new ground that we built for ourselves.

I agree that bows shouldn't be drawn from non-answers but his inability/refusal to answer the question does give cause for concern.

 

[Otis]

That's not actually known though is it, it's just something that's gained the currency of truth by being repeated... repeatedly.

We've had this debate before haven't we.

My recollection from the forums was that Tim Fisher said we would be paying rent and it would be to one of Sisu's entities, though he was a bit vague on as to who that would be.

 

[Steve.B50]

I believe your correct Otis, we have discussed this before.
It's very obvious that the vast majority have spoken but always one strange and newish member who likes to rock the boat a little. But everyone has a choice?

 

[Otis]

I can't remember exactly which forum it was.

Would be great if someone could dig up the recording. I am convinced that Fisher did say we would not be owning the ground and would be paying rent.

 

[Steve.B50]

Otis, I think at first forum he said it has never been agreed than at last one when pushed he agreed we would not own it at first but pay rent.
What ever we think, they have another agenda and SISU would have to bring in investors to build a stadium and these people will want money back with big interests.

 

[italiahorse]

We ALL need to 'stick together' and Support the Manager, Team, Players & Staff even if it means attending games at Northampton IMHO! PUSB!

I have supported the team since 1967 Home and Away.
I will not go to Northampton regardless of our success this year preferring to just go away to as many as possible, if not all.
I will not support the team at all once it is 100% we are staying away for a minimum of 3 years.

 

[Jack Griffin]

I can't remember exactly which forum it was.

Would be great if someone could dig up the recording. I am convinced that Fisher did say we would not be owning the ground and would be paying rent.

Another point I'd like to throw in. As it stands SISU's last position was to insert a 3 year 'break' clause into the Ricoh rent agreement, if SISU entities own a stadium & rent it to CCFC then I bet there will be no break clause in their lease, effectively preventing new owners moving to a superior stadium.

Nice bit of hypocrisy.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I believe your correct Otis, we have discussed this before.
It's very obvious that the vast majority have spoken but always one strange and newish member who likes to rock the boat a little. But everyone has a choice?

Fucking hell, so actually trying to check what's reported of what happens is accuate, and split fact from urban myth makes you strange now?

 

[whiteheadj]

Any new ground will be constructed by a developer who will raise the capital. The caveat to this is SISU/football club will then pay the mortgage. That mortgage will be far less than the 1.3m rent they were paying to ACL for a rented pitch.

CCFC/SISU will own the new stadium freehold and an increasing asset. ALL revenue streams will be received. Other activities such as concerts, F&B and then some will also be all the clubs.

SISU know we will not be rushing back to the big time for a number of years at best, maybe 5, 10 years unless there is some fantastic performances and luck. So this plan is the only way to recoup their investment. Once they stabilize the club in say the Championship again with a new stadium they will finally have their get out clause and the club with the stadium will sell for some 60m upwards easily.

The debt everyone says is already heaped on the football club is nonsense. paper and more paper trail and largely written down/off.


Now ask yourself will you pay rent for a pitch to play on when you could have your own if you are prepared to take some short term heartbreak to get it?

None of this is rocket science.

The only alternative is some ownership or long lease term in the Rocoh to provide an equivalent exit strategy but it seems up to now the council refuse to recognise this simple fact. It's never been about the rent on it's own. The 1.3m was extortion and the level ACL offered at 400k proved this fact. It moved on from there to the future of the football club which needs revenue from the stadium it plays in from the customers it provides to help sustain it's very survival.

SISU may have played hard ball and be seen to be inflexible and uncaring but I have not seen any action from the council that has been very different.

Perhaps now with new talks being suggested in progress there will be a final coming together and a way forward at the Ricoh arena?

I admire what you have said but sisu will own the stadium in a different entreaty to the club. The developer will not raise the capital and if you look at it all the food and drink etc really does not make that much extra money, did the Ricoh only make 1 million last year? So that's the wage budget up to 3 million. But if the negotiated the lease down and then invested the money in a team that is capable of a top 6 championship finish we could get 28 thousand a week at the Ricoh which would be a far greater income than a few beers and pies on the side! The whole thing is sisu wanted the Ricoh not the football club. They thought if they got the football club it would be an easy way into the Ricoh but as the guy from alen Higgs said they negotiated with sisu and thought they had agreed a deal but sisu went back on that deal. Acl and the charity cannot trust sisu and I believe there is someone else ready to buy the Ricoh and possibly start there own new team at the Ricoh! Sisu are trying to get one over the Ricoh by taking the rent from the football and taking concerts etc from them by building the new stadium.

Sisu have bought this on there selfs I think if a new club is created at the Ricoh there will be a hell of a lot more people there than at sisu's ground. I also think if we have a bad start to this season the sisu lovers will turn.

 

[grego_gee]

Another point I'd like to throw in. As it stands SISU's last position was to insert a 3 year 'break' clause into the Ricoh rent agreement, if SISU entities own a stadium & rent it to CCFC then I bet there will be no break clause in their lease, effectively preventing new owners moving to a superior stadium.

Nice bit of hypocrisy.

Yes a nice bit of hypocrisy indeed!

but not surprising since it's totally all in your head!

imp:

 

[Sisued]

Your miss-guided IMHO. If our gross revenue continues to decrease, WE'LL HAVE LESS & LESS MONEY TO SPEND ON BOTH TRANSFERS & WAGES! Fact, 'FIFA Fair Play Rules'. I REPEAT I SUPPORT THE MANAGER, TEAM, PLAYERS & STAFF and will continue to do so as I've done for more years than I care to remember.
I have only ever 'supported' one owner (and even he came with 'baggage') and I'm pretty sure I'm not on my own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We are losing 500k a month apparently...so what exactly will we be restricted to under these fair play rules?
If this move to sixfields is all about having all the revenue from a stadium then please explain to me how 3oo season ticket holders plus some of the income from food over 5 years is better than 10,000 season ticket holders over 5 years?

Wake up you moron

 

[grego_gee]

Any new ground will be constructed by a developer who will raise the capital. The caveat to this is SISU/football club will then pay the mortgage. That mortgage will be far less than the 1.3m rent they were paying to ACL for a rented pitch.

CCFC/SISU will own the new stadium freehold and an increasing asset. ALL revenue streams will be received. Other activities such as concerts, F&B and then some will also be all the clubs.

SISU know we will not be rushing back to the big time for a number of years at best, maybe 5, 10 years unless there is some fantastic performances and luck. So this plan is the only way to recoup their investment. Once they stabilize the club in say the Championship again with a new stadium they will finally have their get out clause and the club with the stadium will sell for some 60m upwards easily.

The debt everyone says is already heaped on the football club is nonsense. paper and more paper trail and largely written down/off.

Now ask yourself will you pay rent for a pitch to play on when you could have your own if you are prepared to take some short term heartbreak to get it?

None of this is rocket science.

The only alternative is some ownership or long lease term in the Rocoh to provide an equivalent exit strategy but it seems up to now the council refuse to recognise this simple fact. It's never been about the rent on it's own. The 1.3m was extortion and the level ACL offered at 400k proved this fact. It moved on from there to the future of the football club which needs revenue from the stadium it plays in from the customers it provides to help sustain it's very survival.

SISU may have played hard ball and be seen to be inflexible and uncaring but I have not seen any action from the council that has been very different.

Perhaps now with new talks being suggested in progress there will be a final coming together and a way forward at the Ricoh arena?

The Ricoh is more than just a football stadium, it has extra accommodation for Hotel, conferences, exhibitions and casino. Although it is arguable that the football club generates much of the footfall that drives these ancillary business functions the prime requirement is for the football club to own the stadium part of the complex.
The whole Ricoh Complex cost £118m (£65m construction) but the stadium part would only constitute £30-40m. The stadium is bigger but its cost would be much less than other parts of the development and so would its land cost (its basically a huge empty shed over a playing field!)

I don't think Sepela is interested in renting or leasing any more it has caused far too much trouble already.

ACL don't own the Ricoh only a 50 year lease on it. The freehold is still 100% owned by the council.

A deal for the club to buy the freehold of just the stadium part of the Ricoh would perhaps be preferable to the ground-share and building anew for both the club and the fans.
Unfortunately because of deals already done by the council (the ACL lease) & ACL (Compass and IEC deals over F&B), the reality is that it is probably impossible for them to sell any part of the freehold even if they wanted to!


imp:

 

[Spionkop]

Whiteheadj, thankfully there aren't that many Sisu lovers. Just a few misguided souls. They just bury their heads in the sand.

 

[BrisbaneBronco]

Any new ground will be constructed by a developer who will raise the capital. The caveat to this is SISU/football club will then pay the mortgage. That mortgage will be far less than the 1.3m rent they were paying to ACL for a rented pitch.

CCFC/SISU will own the new stadium freehold and an increasing asset. ALL revenue streams will be received. Other activities such as concerts, F&B and then some will also be all the clubs.

SISU know we will not be rushing back to the big time for a number of years at best, maybe 5, 10 years unless there is some fantastic performances and luck. So this plan is the only way to recoup their investment. Once they stabilize the club in say the Championship again with a new stadium they will finally have their get out clause and the club with the stadium will sell for some 60m upwards easily.

The debt everyone says is already heaped on the football club is nonsense. paper and more paper trail and largely written down/off.

Now ask yourself will you pay rent for a pitch to play on when you could have your own if you are prepared to take some short term heartbreak to get it?

None of this is rocket science.

The only alternative is some ownership or long lease term in the Rocoh to provide an equivalent exit strategy but it seems up to now the council refuse to recognise this simple fact. It's never been about the rent on it's own. The 1.3m was extortion and the level ACL offered at 400k proved this fact. It moved on from there to the future of the football club which needs revenue from the stadium it plays in from the customers it provides to help sustain it's very survival.

SISU may have played hard ball and be seen to be inflexible and uncaring but I have not seen any action from the council that has been very different.

Perhaps now with new talks being suggested in progress there will be a final coming together and a way forward at the Ricoh arena?

Agree with this post, but still not convinced that SISU will build a new stadium. Neither will they tie themselves to a lease having just gone thru all this BS to end the current one.
They want to bring ACL/CCC to their knee's so that they get ownership of ACL and at least a share of the Ricoh.
What worries me, is that failure to do so will mean the end of CCFC.
SISU are taking a massive risk with the move to Northampton and funding of such with so little income. The end could not be too far away.

 

[CCFC_GT]

I can't remember exactly which forum it was.

Would be great if someone could dig up the recording. I am convinced that Fisher did say we would not be owning the ground and would be paying rent.

At the final fans forum on 10th June, when asked if a new stadium would be a CCFC asset or a SISU asset, I believe TF gave just one reply. His actual reply was "the structure hasn't even been considered at this stage, it would be an opco propco which is the most important point".

The definition of an opco propco is:- An operating company/property company deal (opco propco) is a strategy in which a company is divided into at least two parts: a property company that owns all the real estate and assets associated with generating revenues, and an operating company that uses those assets to generate sales.

So for a new stadium asset to belong to CCFC and not SISU, CCFC would need to consist of two companies, one which operates the football club and one which is a property company owning the stadium. Fat chance.

Effectively TF has still not answered the question on ownership of a new stadium because it depends on whether CCCFC or SISU/developers would own the property company. I am sure he would be quick to tell us if it was CCFC that would own the property company as this might generate support for his plans. I am equally sure that the structure of asset ownership has been considered as this would be an essential component of any development plan, and he has already been quick to tell us the names of the impressive (OSB58's description) list of business partners in this venture. Of course it would not be in SISU interest to tell us the stadium will not be an asset of CCFC, as this would undoubtedly increase hostility for SISU plans, so no surprise TF claims they haven't even considered this. Does anyone on here seriously believe him on this?

 

[Otis]

At the final fans forum on 10th June, when asked if a new stadium would be a CCFC asset or a SISU asset, I believe TF gave just one reply. His actual reply was "the structure hasn't even been considered at this stage, it would be an opco propco which is the most important point".

The definition of an opco propco is:- An operating company/property company deal (opco propco) is a strategy in which a company is divided into at least two parts: a property company that owns all the real estate and assets associated with generating revenues, and an operating company that uses those assets to generate sales.

So for a new stadium asset to belong to CCFC and not SISU, CCFC would need to consist of two companies, one which operates the football club and one which is a property company owning the stadium. Fat chance.

Effectively TF has still not answered the question on ownership of a new stadium because it depends on whether CCCFC or SISU/developers would own the property company. I am sure he would be quick to tell us if it was CCFC that would own the property company as this might generate support for his plans. I am equally sure that the structure of asset ownership has been considered as this would be an essential component of any development plan, and he has already been quick to tell us the names of the impressive (OSB58's description) list of business partners in this venture. Of course it would not be in SISU interest to tell us the stadium will not be an asset of CCFC, as this would undoubtedly increase hostility for SISU plans, so no surprise TF claims they haven't even considered this. Does anyone on here seriously believe him on this?

Thanks for that. :thumbup:

Sent from my KIS using Tapatalk 2

 

[italiahorse]

By supporting the Team you are helping to pay their wages, not supporting the owners. As supporters we don't get to choose the owners, never have done and never will IMHO! Why don't you protest so vigorously against CCC & ACL??????????

They had enough income last year to support a good team but choose not to. Don't mention the previous years when they sold off the silver as well.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

So for a new stadium asset to belong to CCFC and not SISU, CCFC would need to consist of two companies, one which operates the football club and one which is a property company owning the stadium. Fat chance.

Although of course the club's whole argument re: CCFC is Holdings operates the football club, while Ltd. is the property arm.

 

[italiahorse]

If we don't play at the Ricoh for the next 3 years we will go out of existence solely based on SISU estimated revenues.
Why can't people see this?
Move out of Coventry and we will not come back.

 

[CCFC_GT]

Although of course the club's whole argument re: CCFC is Holdings operates the football club, while Ltd. is the property arm.

It seems this is only because they wished to avoid paying due rent.

Do you or do you not believe that SISU hasn't even yet considered whether it will be CCFC or SISU/developer that would own a new stadium?

What do you think the decision is?

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Do you or do you not believe that SISU hasn't even yet considered whether it will be CCFC or SISU/developer that would own a new stadium?

I don't think it would be set in stone, no, as this particular course of action is clearly a rushed decision to progress along this line of discourse (otherwise you'd have plans to show people, land bought, and be a fair way along the planning process).

Therefore, if (IF) it did actually happen, I think it would be far more logical for the club to have possession of the ground. The aim, after all, is to package the club for sale as effectively as possible.

 

[italiahorse]

I don't think it would be set in stone, no, as this particular course of action is clearly a rushed decision to progress along this line of discourse (otherwise you'd have plans to show people, land bought, and be a fair way along the planning process).

Therefore, if (IF) it did actually happen, I think it would be far more logical for the club to have possession of the ground. The aim, after all, is to package the club for sale as effectively as possible.

The crap keeps coming.
CCFC will never own the ground, it will be owned by SISU. Even TF has said that.

 

[italiahorse]

Your miss-guided IMHO. If our gross revenue continues to decrease, WE'LL HAVE LESS & LESS MONEY TO SPEND ON BOTH TRANSFERS & WAGES! Fact, 'FIFA Fair Play Rules'. I REPEAT I SUPPORT THE MANAGER, TEAM, PLAYERS & STAFF and will continue to do so as I've done for more years than I care to remember.
I have only ever 'supported' one owner (and even he came with 'baggage') and I'm pretty sure I'm not on my own!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You will always be on your own, until you start talking sense. Thanks goodness for computers and bedrooms !!!

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The crap keeps coming.
CCFC will never own the ground, it will be owned by SISU. Even TF has said that.

He hasn;t though has he, the quote above confirms he hasn't and the 'answer' is still ambiguous!

Or we can stay in entrenched positions, remain closed to alternatives which don;t fit our (current) world view... and be as bad as SISU in being utterly inflexible, and being utterly unwilling to consider alternatives.

 

[italiahorse]

He hasn;t though has he, the quote above confirms he hasn't and the 'answer' is still ambiguous!

Or we can stay in entrenched positions, remain closed to alternatives which don;t fit our (current) world view... and be as bad as SISU in being utterly inflexible, and being utterly unwilling to consider alternatives.

The fact that he has not been clear on it is confirmation in itself that this is the case.
If CCFC were too own it he would have put it forward a s a positive pitch at the forums.
But he didn't so anyone with an ounce of sense knows what will happen.
You can go with them to oblivion but most fans will not.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The fact that he has not been clear on it is confirmation in itself that this is the case.

No it isn't.

if it's a rushed 'plan' that hasn't been put together properly, how can you be clear on it?

Who the hell says I want to go with them to oblivion?!? This is exactly what I mean, people set themselves up in opposition and decide confrontation is the way forward.

Confrontation and dogma.

So rushed to decide anybody with a different world view of possible scenarios LOVES SHITZU that any hope of having a sensible discussion is lost.

 

[true sky blue]

ABSOLUTELY AGREE! STICK BY THE TEAM, Balls to the pretend supporters turning their backs on the lads, who needs them. we certainly dont at sisu blues

 

[italiahorse]

ABSOLUTELY AGREE! STICK BY THE TEAM, Balls to the pretend supporters turning their backs on the lads, who needs them. we certainly dont at sisu blues

The only way the team can survive is at the Ricoh.
Even if we 3000 people can manage to get to sixfields this season, next season will see FP revenue streams (and hence playing staff) cut to 25% of this seasons.
If nobody goes it shows the FL (and maybe SISU !!) that the plan is not sustainable. If you believe this (like most people) this is the only way to get back.
Play at the Ricoh and we can maintain our budget and maybe get a chance of promotion.
You can follow them to oblivion if you want but I will NEVER be there.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

ABSOLUTELY AGREE! STICK BY THE TEAM, Balls to the pretend supporters turning their backs on the lads, who needs them. we certainly dont at sisu blues

Wut?

This ain;t exactly bringing people together either...

 

[true sky blue]

we are playing at the ricoh. chill - its a defo

 

[italiahorse]

Wut ? ..........

 

[italiahorse]

we are playing at the ricoh. chill - its a defo

Oh thanks. Don't know what I was worrying about. I'll get a season ticket tomorrow