Where do things stand now? (2 Viewers)

[oldskyblue58]

Just my personal opinions as to where things stand at the moment. It wont agree to everyone elses view and I wouldnt expect it to.

CCFC (the team) - the important thing to fans
Seems to me that SP is doing a great job with a small squad that is young and committed. Cant comment on the standard of play because I havent seen them this season yet (to be rectified at Port Vale). Certainly the low crowds have not damaged the play and for all the focus on FFP and income streams we seem to be performing and winning despite the so called restrictions of no match day income streams

Academy
There are all sorts of things being said but what i understand is that talks are going well between the Alan Higgs Centre Trust and CCFC. Bottom line is there are no similar facilities in the surrounding area and the academy has never been so important to the future of CCFC. The centre needs the income and CCFC need the centre. Just to be clear the Alan Higgs Centre Trust is not the same as the Alan Edward Higgs Charity. It was the Alan Higgs Centre Trust that was owed money in the CVA arrangement and voted for it the Alan Edward Higgs Charity was not involved in the vote at all. It is the charity not the Trust that owns shares in ACL

SISU
I really do not understand their plan if you take it at face value. There is nothing about moving to Sixfields and building our own stadium that makes great financial sense to me either short, medium or long term. The debt it saddles CCFC with is simply out of kilter with the benefits of getting a income stream from food & drinks etc. There is no real evidence as yet of an alternative site. If you assume what they are doing is trying to get back at the Ricoh by owning the whole lot then I can see that makes some sense. Distress ACL, put CCC under pressure from media, politicians, fans etc to sell the site to the club, then flip it on to a stadium operator for a multi million profit then i can see that to a degree, but it supposes the distressing and pressure works.

Having spent so much time and money they have to keep at it for now but the CCC loan and the initial rebuttal of the JR have both dented the plan. They could be left with making CCFC breakeven, they could be left with having to accept a rent deal at the Ricoh. The low gates for the "home" games will be hurting, I think how low is a surprise to them, but this has become a longer term game to them. Time they hope that will see ACL suffer then keen to sell up and the CCC keen to offload. I think it would suit them to be tied up in expensive law suits to drain ACL & CCC of funds - I suspect they will be disappointed in that. They want the Freehold and having spent so much will wait to get it unless the game changes against them

They are no bodies fools

ACL
I think they have said "enough is enough they moved out we need to get on with our business". Their game has also like SISU become a longer term one. They are I think prepared to wait SISU out, to wait for them to give in and come back. Thats frustrating for CCFC fans but from the ACL perspective quite probably the right thing to do. Yes they could instigate more costly legal cases but I would think the chances of success are 50:50 at best and would that force CCFC back? I do not see them proceeding with action against Northampton, I suspect that it is difficult to prove that the FL has any duty towards them so no case there, it will be hard to prove Appleton was wrong - and they dont have a bottomless pit of money.

The CVA I think was rejected because they disagree with the fundamental basis of the administration - particularly how the errors in player registrations were rectified (the contracts/registrations follow the share not the other way round and the club & FL should have been rectified on that basis). The rejection had nothing to do with the amount involved, or in truth looking after primarily the interests of CCFC. Fans need to understand that ACL directors must by law look after the best interests of ACL first and foremost they must assess what is best for their company not for someone elses or the fans. They have assessed that and acted accordingly and however much some might rile against it so long as they considered all facts and arrived at a sensible conclusion for ACL they are not wrong to do so.

It might also say they are confident of a good business without CCFC - time will tell- but that would be a concern for SISU and their plans. From a pure business sense the facts might be that they have options to make more money from something other than CCFC (it might not be the case but we can not know from where we are) Unlike most other football venues the Ricoh is much more than a football stadium - something that gets lost in all the mud slinging. They are only offering a rental agreement, and they are prepared to sit and wait

Their decision making appears slow but thats partly because they have to refer back to Councillors and Trustees and are compared to SISU which is run by one person. Slow doesnt mean wrong or unintelligent or incapable

Council
Difficult to tell really because they say very little. I suspect the legal department have "gagged" them whilst the JR appeal is in progress. That works well for SISU as they can say what they like without much fear of being challenged by CCC. Will they sell the freehold, unlikely I would have said. Will they accept new partners in ACL probably but I dont think it would be SISU. Do some of the council feel that ACL should be doing better, certainly, but I think those same council members should look at how they have held the business and project back.

Can they speak for ACL - No. They can sell the freehold but ACL would still hold the lease with no annual rent to pay. They could try to sell their shares but the Charity can block that sale and vice versa. They have to think what is best for the City of Coventry and like it or not one of the considerations is that a football team at the Ricoh might not be. I happen to think a vibrant CCFC at the Ricoh would be a benefit to Coventry but not at any cost. Ideally they want a sound investor to take the site on and develop it and to bring the team back. Takes time. Not looking to sell the Freehold

Higgs Charity
I think they are prepared to do a deal but again not at any price and not dancing to someone elses tune. Yes there are other projects they want to do but I think they are quite prepared to sit it out until the right buyer comes along. Ideally they would want to see the Club united with the stadium, well run and viable, and with the Ricoh able to access substantial invesment to take the development of the area to the next level. Again that longer game comes in to play

Haskell and others
I think he is still interested but he has so many other interests he isnt going to appear here every 5 minutes, will it come to anything who knows?. If he did do a deal for say 50% of ACL that would be a real game changer for SISU I feel. Mr Byng and other parties that might be in the shadows can't really tell, nothing concrete has ever come from what they have said or appeared to have said. Hoffman & Elliot - both great fans of the Club- but I am reticent to welcome their involvement, indeed I think in some ways they have hampered a solution for different reasons. Perhaps my doubts on some of the above will prove ill founded, certainly if the club is ultimately better off I am glad to be wrong.

The Supporters Trust & associated campaigns
needs to be clear in the messages it puts out, what are the objectives, how do they get them, how do they put forward their members message. Would have thought the immediate objective is to get CCFC playing back in Coventry - to most fans nothing else matters. But what is it they offer the fans, CCFC, the owners, the other stakeholders like ACL?

The Fans
the fans are hugely frustrated, they are angry, but above all they want their team back playing in Coventry. The problem is fans want a solution and they want it like yesterday........ it just isnt going to happen that quickly in my opinion. If I had to guess then I would not bet on a solution with CCFC back in Coventry before next season earliest.

Like I said just one view of where we are...... yours will probably be different and that doesnt make either of us right or wrong

 

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[singers_pore]

I agree with 99% of that and another great post from OSB. The only point I might quibble with is the following;

SISU
Having spent so much time and money they have to keep at it for now .... They want the Freehold and having spent so much will wait to get it inless the game changes against them.

You seem to be suggesting that SISU are suffering from the old "gambler's fallacy" i.e., the gambler thinks "I've had a run of bad luck and lost $1,000 but if I have a few more bets I should surely claw some of the money back."

It is a fallacy because the odds are not in the gambler's favor. The past is irrelevant to future decisions. (The old sunk cost argument of economists).

In other words, it makes no sense for SISU to think that they have to stay with the project because they have already invested so much. The future is a negative NPV project and as such SISU should exit right away.

In my view, the role of the Trust and NOPM is to drive home the point to SISU that they are better off exiting now than staying.

 

[edgy]

If you assume what they are doing is trying to get back at the Ricoh by owning the whole lot then I can see that makes some sense. Distress ACL, put CCC under pressure from media, politicians, fans etc to sell the site to the club, then flip it on to a stadium operator for a multi million profit then i can see that to a degree, but it supposes the distressing and pressure works.

This is my belief and stance. If that's what it takes for us to move forward then that's what we should all be pushing for.

 

[singers_pore]

This is my belief and stance. If that's what it takes for us to move forward then that's what we should all be pushing for.

Except that it will move us backwards not forwards because the club is a fundamentally unprofitable proposition. Therefore SISU will try to separate the club and stadium once they get their hands on the Ricoh.

 

[sky blue john]

Good post Osb. I have already said and inclined to agree that we won't be back at the Ricoh anytime soon.
I have a question regarding ccfc's
option to buy the higgs half of Acl, is it still live , expired or about to expire with ltd or have Otium purchased the option ?
I know that they are unlikely to sell to a Sisu owned company now anyway and if they did it would probably be vetoed by the council.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Just my personal opinions as to where things stand at the moment. It wont agree to everyone elses view and I wouldnt expect it to.

CCFC (the team) - the important thing to fans
Seems to me that SP is doing a great job with a small squad that is young and committed. Cant comment on the standard of play because I havent seen them this season yet (to be rectified at Port Vale). Certainly the low crowds have not damaged the play and for all the focus on FFP and income streams we seem to be performing and winning despite the so called restrictions of no match day income streams

Academy
There are all sorts of things being said but what i understand is that talks are going well between the Alan Higgs Centre Trust and CCFC. Bottom line is there are no similar facilities in the surrounding area and the academy has never been so important to the future of CCFC. The centre needs the income and CCFC need the centre. Just to be clear the Alan Higgs Centre Trust is not the same as the Alan Edward Higgs Charity. It was the Alan Higgs Centre Trust that was owed money in the CVA arrangement and voted for it the Alan Edward Higgs Charity was not involved in the vote at all. It is the charity not the Trust that owns shares in ACL

SISU
I really do not understand their plan if you take it at face value. There is nothing about moving to Sixfields and building our own stadium that makes great financial sense to me either short, medium or long term. The debt it saddles CCFC with is simply out of kilter with the benefits of getting a income stream from food & drinks etc. There is no real evidence as yet of an alternative site. If you assume what they are doing is trying to get back at the Ricoh by owning the whole lot then I can see that makes some sense. Distress ACL, put CCC under pressure from media, politicians, fans etc to sell the site to the club, then flip it on to a stadium operator for a multi million profit then i can see that to a degree, but it supposes the distressing and pressure works.

Having spent so much time and money they have to keep at it for now but the CCC loan and the initial rebuttal of the JR have both dented the plan. They could be left with making CCFC breakeven, they could be left with having to accept a rent deal at the Ricoh. The low gates for the "home" games will be hurting, I think how low is a surprise to them, but this has become a longer term game to them. Time they hope that will see ACL suffer then keen to sell up and the CCC keen to offload. I think it would suit them to be tied up in expensive law suits to drain ACL & CCC of funds - I suspect they will be disappointed in that. They want the Freehold and having spent so much will wait to get it inless the game changes against them

They are no bodies fools

ACL
I think they have said "enough is enough they moved out we need to get on with our business". Their game has also like SISU become a longer term one. They are I think prepared to wait SISU out, to wait for them to give in and come back. Thats frustrating for CCFC fans but from the ACL perspective quite probably the right thing to do. Yes they could instigate more costly legal cases but I would think the chances of success are 50:50 at best and would that force CCFC back? I do not see them proceeding with action against Northampton, I suspect that it is difficult to prove that the FL has any duty towards them so no case there, it will be hard to prove Appleton was wrong - and they dont have a bottomless pit of money.

The CVA I think was rejected because they disagree with the fundamental basis of the administration - particularly how the errors in player registrations were rectified (the contracts/registrations follow the share not the other way round and the club & FL should have been rectified on that basis). The rejection had nothing to do with the amount involved, or in truth looking after primarily the interests of CCFC. Fans need to understand that ACL directors must by law look after the best interests of ACL first and foremost they must assess what is best for their company not for someone elses or the fans. They have assessed that and acted accordingly and however much some might rile against it so long as they considered all facts and arrived at a sensible conclusion for ACL they are not wrong to do so.

It might also say they are confident of a good business without CCFC - time will tell- but that would be a concern for SISU and their plans. From a pure business sense the facts might be that they have options to make more money from something other than CCFC (it might not be the case but we can not know from where we are) Unlike most other football venues the Ricoh is much more than a football stadium - something that gets lost in all the mud slinging. They are only offering a rental agreement, and they are prepared to sit and wait

Their decision making appears slow but thats partly because they have to refer back to Councillors and Trustees and are compared to SISU which is run by one person. Slow doesnt mean wrong or unintelligent or incapable

Council
Difficult to tell really because they say very little. I suspect the legal department have "gagged" them whilst the JR appeal is in progress. That works well for SISU as they can say what they like without much fear of being challenged by CCC. Will they sell the freehold, unlikely I would have said. Will they accept new partners in ACL probably but I dont think it would be SISU. Do some of the council feel that ACL should be doing better, certainly, but I think those same council members should look at how they have held the business and project back.

Can they speak for ACL - No. They can sell the freehold but ACL would still hold the lease with no annual rent to pay. They could try to sell their shares but the Charity can block that sale and vice versa. They have to think what is best for the City of Coventry and like it or not one of the considerations is that a football team at the Ricoh might not be. I happen to think a vibrant CCFC at the Ricoh would be a benefit to Coventry but not at any cost. Ideally they want a sound investor to take the site on and develop it and to bring the team back. Takes time. Not looking to sell the Freehold

Higgs Charity
I think they are prepared to do a deal but again not at any price and not dancing to someone elses tune. Yes there are other projects they want to do but I think they are quite prepared to sit it out until the right buyer comes along. Ideally they would want to see the Club united with the stadium, well run and viable, and with the Ricoh able to access substantial invesment to take the development of the area to the next level. Again that longer game comes in to play

Haskell and others
I think he is still interested but he has so many other interests he isnt going to appear here every 5 minutes, will it come to anything who knows?. If he did do a deal for say 50% of ACL that would be a real game changer for SISU I feel. Mr Byng and other parties that might be in the shadows can't really tell, nothing concrete has ever come from what they have said or appeared to have said. Hoffman & Elliot - both great fans of the Club- but I am reticent to welcome their involvement, indeed I think in some ways they have hampered a solution for different reasons. Perhaps my doubts on some of the above will prove ill founded, certainly if the club is ultimately better off I am glad to be wrong.

The Supporters Trust & associated campaigns
needs to be clear in the messages it puts out, what are the objectives, how do they get them, how do they put forward their members message. Would have thought the immediate objective is to get CCFC playing back in Coventry - to most fans nothing else matters. But what is it they offer the fans, CCFC, the owners, the other stakeholders like ACL?

The Fans
the fans are hugely frustrated, they are angry, but above all they want their team back playing in Coventry. The problem is fans want a solution and they want it like yesterday........ it just isnt going to happen that quickly in my opinion. If I had to guess then I would not bet on a solution with CCFC back in Coventry before next season earliest.

Like I said just one view of where we are...... yours will probably be different and that doesnt make either of us right or wrong

The thing is with just that one point from what else was an exceptional post OSB is can ACL sustain the long term fight with SISU, as you have ACL don't have a bottomless pit of funds in this situation and according to one councillor ACL's business model for the Arena wasn't perfect even when CCFC were at the Arena?

 

[oldskyblue58]

I agree with 99% of that and another great post from OSB. The only point I might quibble with is the following;



You seem to be suggesting that SISU are suffering from the old "gambler's fallacy" i.e., the gambler thinks "I've had a run of bad luck and lost $1,000 but if I have a few more bets I should surely claw some of the money back."

It is a fallacy because the odds are not in the gambler's favor. The past is irrelevant to future decisions. (The old sunk cost argument of economists).

In other words, it makes no sense for SISU to think that they have to stay with the project because they have already invested so much. The future is a negative NPV project and as such SISU should exit right away.

In my view, the role of the Trust and NOPM is to drive home the point to SISU that they are better off exiting now than staying.

more implying they are not willing to give in yet ........ and if administration settled what major legal costs are there left to fund, especially if ACL dont go for any more legals. They have to fund the playing side ....... was TF right in saying they can do that for 3 years and had planned to?

 

[oldskyblue58]

Good post Osb. I have already said and inclined to agree that we won't be back at the Ricoh anytime soon.
I have a question regarding ccfc's
option to buy the higgs half of Acl, is it still live , expired or about to expire with ltd or have Otium purchased the option ?
I know that they are unlikely to sell to a Sisu owned company now anyway and if they did it would probably be vetoed by the council.

The option can not be actioned so long as ACL are owed money by CCFC LTd. If CCFC Ltd is liquidated then so is the option, it can not be transferred without the Charity permission so Otium can not just claim it. In any case if TF is to be believed then the price the option sets is well above what he thinks it is worth

 

[oldskyblue58]

The thing is with just that one point from what else was an exceptional post OSB is can ACL sustain the long term fight with SISU, as you have ACL don't have a bottomless pit of funds in this situation and according to one councillor ACL's business model for the Arena wasn't perfect even when CCFC were at the Arena?

Depends on what new income they can bring in...... if they dont initiate any new court cases then those costs wont continue adding up and it is just down to normal running costs

 

[Paxman II]

Good all round summary by OSB. Nothing new in there but I would disagree slightly over the thought SISU want the stadium freehold.
I do see the financial road ahead for building a new stadium. Perhaps it's the entrepreneur in me. I certainly would not discount it.

Attendances may be low at Sixfields and they may increase a little if we keep playing like we are. The fact is they have laid out their plans about funding while away and that is whether they get a few or thousands at Sixfields - it really makes little difference.

I'm sure when the JR is out of the way we will see a bit more eagerness to talk. I feel ACL did wrong in in not accepting the CVA as I can't see any correlation that says it was wise for them.

Clearly if something is not agreed about a return to the Ricoh in time for next season at least then I fear we may see CCFC gone for good through the liquidators door as the stadium while I see it as a possibility, don't think SISU would have the stomach for it.

Time will indeed tell. Nothing we do as fans will have any affect I'm afraid. In fact you may have some effect on keeping the owners around if you all showed support and did not stay away? But that's another story.

 

[edgy]

Except that it will move us backwards not forwards because the club is a fundamentally unprofitable proposition. Therefore SISU will try to separate the club and stadium once they get their hands on the Ricoh.

That's you guessing with your Anti-SISU hat on though. You don't know that. It's more likely they will sell the whole package as it will bring big profits which is what hedge funds are all about, right?
They are highly unlikely to keep the Ricoh seperate and charge rent as this will only dribble funds in and would be equally difficult to sell without the football club somehow attached when they've had enough.

 

[oldskyblue58]

I dont discount it Paxman but right now I have not seen anything that indicates it stacks up - you know accountants like to see it in black and white

If ACL were due to be paid the money anyway because of FL instructions then perhaps that gave them the luxury of taking what they percieve as the moral high ground over the administration process. In theory they were originally due around £42m in the terms of the lease for early termination they were to get 590k

If the claim that the FL has made Otium pay the £590k in return for the share I wonder have they paid it, have ACL assumed they wont, and does that give them leverage with the FL?
Have no idea but I do wonder

I didnt put down the possibility of SISU pulling the plug but I do agree it is still a possibility

 

[oldskyblue58]

but if ACL/CCC/Charity thought that the stadium would be sold on by SISU why dont they do it themselves and take the profit not the hedge fund...... especially if they were in some way able to fill the CCFC void?

 

[Astute]

That was about your best post ever OSB.

I have to agree with it all. There is no evidence at all to say anything different. The only thing we don't know is what SISU will do next. Will they do the right thing? Will they do what is best for their finances? Or will they just act in spite?

To me they will always do what is best for their finances. After all it is what they are all about. They have tried a bluff on a pair of two's. Their opponent has nearly gone all the way to calling them. If so the bluff has failed. The biggest problem to me is they have gambled with our club.

So what is next? Try to sell and get back as much as they can? Hold on and hope for promotions? I can't see a liquidation as there is much less value than they have lost so far. There would be more value in a sale if we were back at the Ricoh on a low rent with a long lease. With the wage bill being so low now there is money to be made on whoever gets promotion with our club....as long as we have a ground in or very very close to Coventry that has room for all of our fans. But if it isn't the Ricoh it would cost a serious investment by someone. So to me the b est thing for any owner would be to take us home....SISU or whoever it will be.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Depends on what new income they can bring in...... if they dont initiate any new court cases then those costs wont continue adding up and it is just down to normal running costs

However ACL's accounts (Which I think saw someone post on here just recently) for 2012 show that had there not been CCFC Rent and Olympic Revenue then there would have been a loss, correct me if I am wrong OSB but that doesn't look good.

I'll try and dig out the post I am referring too.

 

[oldskyblue58]

The olympic income will be in the accounts to May 2013 Robo .... that hasnt been filed yet

In addition there were some big profitable events in 2012/13 that were put off for one year because of the Olympics eg the Boots national conference i think some of those have come back

Also the "rent" isnt just rent it is the match day expenses as I understand it included in that figure. So no matches no expenses. It isnt quite as simple as just taking out the rent from income and saying there you go

In addition there will be the effect of the reduction in interest charges because of the new deal with CCC plus some of the senior staff have not been replaced and the wage bill cost has been cut significantly

The set up just is not the same, but the effect as yet hasnt been quantified where we can analyse it

 

[edgy]

but if ACL/CCC/Charity thought that the stadium would be sold on by SISU why dont they do it themselves and take the profit not the hedge fund...... especially if they were in some way able to fill the CCFC void?

That's a very good question and one that we should be asking CCC. Could it be they do not want to sell to anyone (wasn't PH4 interested?) and that they want to continue raking in rent from the club or whatever is hosted at the Ricoh?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

The olympic income will be in the accounts to May 2013 Robo .... that hasnt been filed yet

In addition there were some big profitable events in 2012/13 that were put off for one year because of the Olympics eg the Boots national conference i think some of those have come back

Also the "rent" isnt just rent it is the match day expenses as I understand it included in that figure. So no matches no expenses. It isnt quite as simple as just taking out the rent from income and saying there you go

In addition there will be the effect of the reduction in interest charges because of the new deal with CCC plus some of the senior staff have not been replaced and the wage bill cost has been cut significantly

The set up just is not the same, but the effect as yet hasnt been quantified where we can analyse it

Thanks for that OSB never sure on it myself.

So we have to wait until their next set of accounts are filed to see what type of impact that no CCFC will have on there business? As you said I am sure they will have things going on and I am not hoping for a second that they do not profit without CCFC, however if they do well it forces the hand of SISU and that might not be a bad thing.

 

[oldskyblue58]

yep we have to wait see...... if the figures are good then they might be filed early to back up what you say about forcing SISU hand

Of course a couple things I did forget is that in the year to 31/05/13 there were the following

- draw down of the Escrow account to pay the rent missed £536k
- match day expenses that were paid by CCFC
- the legal costs of the dispute

So the 2013 will not be a "normal" year (even if you exclude the Olympic effect)

The first "normal" year without CCFC will be 31/05/14 I reckon ........ if they dont come back

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Fans-kcic!! I miss my team. I go up with my father in law and 6 year old lad. We can't go currently for various reasons and that makes me sad. Someone has knicked a part of my life and I want it back

 

[BurbageSkyBlues]

Just a thought on all of this

We tend to look at what may happen next, but with our sky blue specs on! We all view it from the angle of how the club can progress. But for me, Sisu will only be thinking how to maximise their return.

As has been stated, there is a long way to go, and at least this season before a return to the Ricoh. But what if Sisu have a plan b ( or c or whatever) that involves their role at Northampton.?

It was suggested that there are plans afoot for significant development around sixfields, involving the local authorities and the NT club owners. If I were them , I'd be very concerned about what Sisu may be concocting as an alternative strategy

 

[sky blue john]

The option can not be actioned so long as
ACL are owed money by CCFC LTd. If CCFC Ltd is liquidated then so is the option, it can not be transferred without the Charity permission so Otium can not just claim it. In any case if TF is to be believed then the price the option sets is well above what he thinks it is worth

So currently they can't sell their share until ltd is liquidated. If this is the case is this a reason for Sisu not want or a delay on the liquidation process ?
Or at least to wait for the outcome of the JR. It would some what scupper their plans if the Higgs sold their half to someone else !!!!

 

[RFC]

I would suggest that Coventry City Council will continue to 'Bail-Out' ACL as they appear to have a bottom less pit of 'Council Tax Payers' money to throw around with Coombe Abbey being the latest recipient! PUSB!

 

[oldskyblue58]

Go on RFC humour me and describe exactly how CCC keep giving ACL free money to bail them out?

 

[duffer]

Great post OSB. FWIW I think SISU's plan is, and has been for a while, getting their hands on the stadium for as little as possible. If the JR succeeds, then I think they'll be a bit closer to that outcome, but if it fails I think they'll be a lot further away. Given the firm terms of the initial rejection, I have real doubts that it will be overturned on appeal.

ACL may or may not be able to run at a profit, but as long as it doesn't run at a massive loss I think the council will continue to back it. They can point to the jobs it provides, and go through a couple of rearrangements in terms of personnel and organisation to try to improve things before there'll be any significant pressure to sell.

CCFC at Northampton though is financially ruinous, and it already seems clear that there isn't a credible plan to build a stadium.

If it turns into a waiting game, and I think it will if ACL don't challenge the administration, then I reckon SISU have to sell up and move on before ACL do. The more pressure that is loaded onto SISU through NOPM, the quicker that happens, imho.

The alternative of handing over the Ricoh for next-to-nothing to SISU as a way of resolving this might appeal to some fans, but plenty of other fans and a lot of otherwise disinterested taxpayers wouldn't be too keen on that approach - again, imho.

 

[Paxman II]

I hope that what OSB has done here in the OP and a couple of further answers, has enlightened everyone to the facts a little more clearly? So can we have more sensible talk from now on about this whole issue without the assumptions and rhetoric that gets repeated without facts often appearing on here please?

Not getting at anyone, just trying to suggest a lid on reality.

 

[@richh87]

Good all round summary by OSB. Nothing new in there but I would disagree slightly over the thought SISU want the stadium freehold.
I do see the financial road ahead for building a new stadium. Perhaps it's the entrepreneur in me. I certainly would not discount it.

Attendances may be low at Sixfields and they may increase a little if we keep playing like we are. The fact is they have laid out their plans about funding while away and that is whether they get a few or thousands at Sixfields - it really makes little difference.

I'm sure when the JR is out of the way we will see a bit more eagerness to talk. I feel ACL did wrong in in not accepting the CVA as I can't see any correlation that says it was wise for them.

Clearly if something is not agreed about a return to the Ricoh in time for next season at least then I fear we may see CCFC gone for good through the liquidators door as the stadium while I see it as a possibility, don't think SISU would have the stomach for it.

Time will indeed tell. Nothing we do as fans will have any affect I'm afraid. In fact you may have some effect on keeping the owners around if you all showed support and did not stay away? But that's another story.

We don't want the owners to stay around you nutter.

Also, you say that SISU have a plan to build a stadium (where's the land they were so close to acquiring then?), and that they can afford to sit it out regardless of attendance; but then say if a deal to return to the Ricoh isn't agreed by next season they'll liquidate us and leave. Make your mind up.

I know it's hard backing SISU when they are clearly arseholes, but if you're going to do it then try to make sense.

 

[Grendel]

We don't want the owners to stay around you nutter.

Also, you say that SISU have a plan to build a stadium (where's the land they were so close to acquiring then?), and that they can afford to sit it out regardless of attendance; but then say if a deal to return to the Ricoh isn't agreed by next season they'll liquidate us and leave. Make your mind up.

I know it's hard backing SISU when they are clearly arseholes, but if you're going to do it then try to make sense.

You always backed thorn and that never made sense.

 

[@richh87]

You always backed thorn and that never made sense.

I did. I liked the style of play and thought he was a decent bloke.

Hardly the same is it?

Also - I'm clearly right in how I dissected Paxman's tripe; otherwise you'd have backed him up.

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

I feel a lot depends on the Administrator's final findings when presented which could paint an entirely different picture (or not). This, coupled with the JR appeal outcome may change things.

 

[chorlton]

I hope you don't mind but I'm re-posting something I wrote in another thread which was a bit buried but I wanted to share. OSB, when you query what's in it for SISU I think it's possible to consider that SISU have achieved their aim, that is to unify the Arena and the Club into a future sale thereby raising the value of the club:

I was thinking through this question the other day and remembered Fisher recently stating that when SISU bought CCFC they identified two possible ways to make profit:
1. Take the club into the Premiership and then milk the money this provides, or
2. The normal SISU operation which is to turn round a failing business and sell it for a profit.

Now, if you consider that option 1 is a long way off and involves a huge amount of financing to build the new stadium etc then the only reason they can be holding on to CCFC is for option 2. To create an attractive offer to buyers they would need to:
A. Unite the stadium and the club, and
B. Demonstrate a positive future on the pitch

Deadline day's passing brought home a thought to me that SISU have actually achieved both of these things. By refusing to sell key players at a time when we're scoring so freely any prospective bidders would feel confident the team will progress and open up revenue for the future. Inadvertently, I think, by moving out of the Ricoh SISU have demonstrated that there must be a uniting of the club and stadium. Rumours that ACL will deal with Byng or Haskell would suggest that whoever it is that buys the club will almost inevitably be guaranteed the purchase of the stadium (or 50% with management of it). Therefore, without actually owning the Ricoh SISU have tied the stadium and club together.

None of this is to praise SISU. I am firmly in the NOPM camp and believe their tenure as owners has been awful (in every way). I just think that, possibly, a very hard-nosed exit strategy which reduces losses to a minimum could now be in place. Like so many people I just cannot see that a hedge fund would prop up a football club just for the love of the game. I hope this isn't just wishful thinking, just a train of thought which tried to work out what was in it for SISU.

 

[longjohnskyblue]

All credit to OSB - I would say he has pretty much nailed it - at the very least I agree with all he said. As for the criticism of the view vis a vis ACL, I drove past the ricoh today, and saw the car park once more full of cars on the ricoh side. With others mentioning that compass caterings profits have actually increased since the club left, from circumstantial evidence of my own eyes I can well believe this. While it may not be as glamorous or as emotion inducing as holding football games there, the sheer amount of corporate exhibitions being held there virtually every week will add weight to ACLs contention that the club needs them more than ACL need CCFC.

ACL would gain kudos, but not necessarily profits (as have been consistently shown since construction). Indeed the very fact that rent was allowed to go unpaid for a year was I suspect purely for PR. There cannot be a business case to allow a tenant not to pay rent for over a year!

With Sisu's litigious nature, I up am strongly suspicious that as OSB and others have said, they were hoping for the judge to tie ACL in legal hoops for years. I can only imagine this was their Plan B (Plan A was to get the club in the prem - but the botched that by not continuing to invest in the club). So they are in Plan C, which is being done on the hoof - hence no concrete plans in place and almost inevitably none will surface.

It is great to se that the majority of fans are sticking to NOPM (much to the trust's chegrin - as they distanced themselves from this campaign). Even with the luck of having a crop of capable players in the academy (SP's signing webster has hardly set the world alight so far) the crowds have remained stubbornly pitiful. As I have said several times, in reality for all the chest puffing, in reality the crowds are never going to increase above what would be typical away day crowds.

All in all sisu will never show it in public, but must be desperate for the JR to go in their favour. If it doesn't It will not surprise me if they call for talks in short order. Only time will tell!

 

[@richh87]

I hope you don't mind but I'm re-posting something I wrote in another thread which was a bit buried but I wanted to share. OSB, when you query what's in it for SISU I think it's possible to consider that SISU have achieved their aim, that is to unify the Arena and the Club into a future sale thereby raising the value of the club:

I was thinking through this question the other day and remembered Fisher recently stating that when SISU bought CCFC they identified two possible ways to make profit:
1. Take the club into the Premiership and then milk the money this provides, or
2. The normal SISU operation which is to turn round a failing business and sell it for a profit.

Now, if you consider that option 1 is a long way off and involves a huge amount of financing to build the new stadium etc then the only reason they can be holding on to CCFC is for option 2. To create an attractive offer to buyers they would need to:
A. Unite the stadium and the club, and
B. Demonstrate a positive future on the pitch

Deadline day's passing brought home a thought to me that SISU have actually achieved both of these things. By refusing to sell key players at a time when we're scoring so freely any prospective bidders would feel confident the team will progress and open up revenue for the future. Inadvertently, I think, by moving out of the Ricoh SISU have demonstrated that there must be a uniting of the club and stadium. Rumours that ACL will deal with Byng or Haskell would suggest that whoever it is that buys the club will almost inevitably be guaranteed the purchase of the stadium (or 50% with management of it). Therefore, without actually owning the Ricoh SISU have tied the stadium and club together.

None of this is to praise SISU. I am firmly in the NOPM camp and believe their tenure as owners has been awful (in every way). I just think that, possibly, a very hard-nosed exit strategy which reduces losses to a minimum could now be in place. Like so many people I just cannot see that a hedge fund would prop up a football club just for the love of the game. I hope this isn't just wishful thinking, just a train of thought which tried to work out what was in it for SISU.

That's a very interesting thought actually.

The Council may have been unwilling to sell previously, giving no owner of the football club a chance to unite the two.

By moving to Northampton there's still very little chance that SISU could buy the Rioch, but it's quite likely that a new owner could.

The quotes from Byng in the last few weeks/months suggested his backers would be willing to do a deal when things settle down...

...now to find out if he's another Jojar Dhinsa.

 

[Paxman II]

...so why has uncle Joe and his cohorts Haskell and Hoffman made a move? The chance of any of these ideas seemed to die months ago. Anyone attempting to buy the stadium (in any form) would take a huge risk that they could procure the club from SISU?
Not going to happen is it?

 

[Astute]

...so why has uncle Joe and his cohorts Haskell and Hoffman made a move? The chance of any of these ideas seemed to die months ago. Anyone attempting to buy the stadium (in any form) would take a huge risk that they could procure the club from SISU?
Not going to happen is it?

I wouldn't be so sure.

Everything went quiet when they found out that they would have bought debt and the Ricoh rent contract. SISU now have no rights to the Ricoh. Everyone, including a judge knew what they were up to. ACL have even said that they see the future without them.

How long will SISU carry on with the money pit they have designed in Northampton? ACL have gone very quiet.