The bigger picture... (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Voice_of_Reason
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James Smith
Well-Known Member
I'm all for a new ground if necessary, Joy says it's plan A we've moved on (and then attacks the council again), but we've seen or heard nothing from anyone about it except that Tim has been looking for Badger Droppings.There is a price to pay in moving to Northampton and you are right that it would have been cheaper to stay in the short term (if a rent less than £1.3M could have been agreed).
But the cost of moving to Northampton would not be as much if the fans were not staying away in protest and the long term gains from having our own ground and all revenues far outway the cost even with stay-away fans.
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Hobo
Well-Known Member
I am still very anti SISU over their stewardship they must take a lot of blame as owners.
Yes the rent was too high, that is something they had to negotiate, didn't and haven't got the fans on board.
They have always had the option to buy and haven't even made an offer.
The way I see it based on the information we have is they tried to distress ACL and moan when ACL try and distress them.
ACL and CCC have played a part but lion share of blame still with SISU.
If they bought Ricoh at a fair price yes I would give them a chance to move on. Yes I am always prepared to change my mind if further information comes out about either party. I base my opinion of SISU on their track record before Coventry, after being in charge for six years, their lack of accounts transparency etc etc.....they have written their own script but like to blame everyone else. Engagement with fans and CCC and ACL in my opinion has been awful, I wonder why people don't trust them?
Yes the rent was too high, that is something they had to negotiate, didn't and haven't got the fans on board.
They have always had the option to buy and haven't even made an offer.
The way I see it based on the information we have is they tried to distress ACL and moan when ACL try and distress them.
ACL and CCC have played a part but lion share of blame still with SISU.
If they bought Ricoh at a fair price yes I would give them a chance to move on. Yes I am always prepared to change my mind if further information comes out about either party. I base my opinion of SISU on their track record before Coventry, after being in charge for six years, their lack of accounts transparency etc etc.....they have written their own script but like to blame everyone else. Engagement with fans and CCC and ACL in my opinion has been awful, I wonder why people don't trust them?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
There is a price to pay in moving to Northampton and you are right that it would have been cheaper to stay in the short term (if a rent less than £1.3M could have been agreed).
But the cost of moving to Northampton would not be as much if the fans were not staying away in protest and the long term gains from having our own ground and all revenues far outway the cost even with stay-away fans.
Ok, lets assume fans sold out the shithole every week. These are just rough figures, but the ratio of loss is whats important.
7250 fans paying an average of £13 a ticket equates to income of £2.16m. Discount the £150k rent, leaves the club with £2.01m.
11000 fans paying an average of £15 a ticket equates to income of £3.79m. Discount the £1.3m rent, leaves the club with £2.49m.
You talk about long term gains of having "our own ground" (we used to have that, its called the Ricoh), yet why does that mean the club has to play in Northampton?
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Yes, and the offer was rejected.
http://www.coventrycity-mad.co.uk/news/tmnw/city_statement_on_acl_offer_772025/index.shtml
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Ltd were offered lower rents as I understand it and as they had (or were the last holders of) the Golden Share, that made them the Club according to what I understand the rules to be. Sisu were claiming Holdings were the club at this point. Then we get into the workings of the ears of Mr Labovitch and why he couldn't hear an offer made to Otium because he was being a director of a different Sisu subsidiary that day.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
Don't forget that you can't normally use maximum capacity of a stadium in your calculations because of the need for segregation between fans.
grego_gee
New Member
We never had the Ricoh!
It was a working arrangement until ACL pissed off the the football club by locking them out while they rented it to the Olympic committee.
SISU now have realised they can build their own Ricoh for £10m just like the council did, and reap all the benefits.
imp:thaiskyblue
New Member
reaping benefits, will that be ccfc or sisu and their investors ?We never had the Ricoh!
It was a working arrangement until ACL pissed off the the football club by locking them out while they rented it to the Olympic committee.
SISU now have realised they can build their own Ricoh for £10m just like the council did, and reap all the benefits.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
We never had the Ricoh!
It was a working arrangement until ACL pissed off the the football club by locking them out while they rented it to the Olympic committee.
SISU now have realised they can build their own Ricoh for £10m just like the council did, and reap all the benefits.
£10m Ricoh!
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Your funny.
Also please could you tell me when exactly the club were locked out? Some sort of newspaper article will do, only I think your lying about it.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
We never had the Ricoh!
It was a working arrangement until ACL pissed off the the football club by locking them out while they rented it to the Olympic committee.
SISU now have realised they can build their own Ricoh for £10m just like the council did, and reap all the benefits.
So why do they still want the Ricoh
grego_gee
New Member
Yes it will be the owners that benefit most but if they are comfortable with the profit they will be in a better position to finance the football team.
Do you really think they ought to give the the investment for free and let the football team have all the income?
Do you think its a better arrangement that ACL take all the profit and SISU still finance the football team?
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grego_gee
New Member
There happens to be a completely vacant football stadium in the area that they want one, there should be a deal to be done!
It might suit all sides eventually.
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RegTheDonk
Well-Known Member
.....SISU now have realised they can build their own Ricoh for £10m just like the council did, and reap all the benefits.
WTF? Where the hell can they build a Ricoh like stadium for £10m? They planning to re-locate us to Greece???
You're slightly right - SISU own their own and reap all the benefits - CCFC will still rent it.
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Yes it will be the owners that benefit most but if they are comfortable with the profit they will be in a better position to finance the football team.
Do you really think they ought to give the the investment for free and let the football team have all the income?
Do you think its a better arrangement that ACL take all the profit and SISU still finance the football team?
Why not? You seem happy to have the council and Higgs trust to put all the investment into the Ricoh only for sisu to get it for free.
Broken Hearted Sky Blue
Well-Known Member
There happens to be a completely vacant football stadium in the area that they want one, there should be a deal to be done!
It might suit all sides eventually.
But you said they could build a stadium like the Ricoh for ten million pounds why bother with the Ricoh?
skybluefred
New Member
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
The Council only paid £10m for the Ricoh!
You ignore the millions in land value and the fact that only they could attract the regeneration funding.
Edit: and the £60m from the sale of land to Tesco.
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grego_gee
New Member
No, I am referring to the published final account and the land value (cost) was included.
Grant funding was less than £10m in total and would have been applicable had CCFC had the money to have completed the project in the first place.
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skybluefred
New Member
James--Please--that would have taken common sense.
James Smith
Well-Known Member
There was a deal to be done, especially before the rent boycott was started when trust broke down. I think I'm right in saying they only started negotiations after that, agreed HOT with the charity and then according to PWKH walked away and didn't reimburse the Higgs their legal costs despite having agreed to do so.There happens to be a completely vacant football stadium in the area that they want one, there should be a deal to be done!
It might suit all sides eventually.
grego_gee
New Member
There was a deal to be done with ACL when SISU were still prepared to be tenants under a reduced rent.
There came a turning point when SISU realised it was not in their interests to continue under any sort of rent agreement at all.
From that point on there was no deal to be done with ACL.
A deal for the freehold can only be done with the council, and they are not free to sell the freehold without dissolving ACL first.
imp:shy_tall_knight
Well-Known Member
The £10m is true, the council have done very well from it thanks to Tesco and the European funding that they received. Had McGin & robo been given the stadium for nothing then they would have been able to sell the club for a lot more than what had SISU paid for the club as they would have a significant asset. They bought us on the cheap were bad owners as demonstrated by the crowds and now want the freehold on the cheap to get their return on their investment
bigfatronssba
Well-Known Member
Tesco paid for land bought from the council. That land was an asset of the city of Coventry.
Do you expect it to be given away for free?
The council/citizens of Coventry had an asset in land to the value of £40m. That asset was sold to Tesco, then money used was put towards Ricoh building costs.
The council effectively swapped the land for capital in the Ricoh project.
The way some of you on here carry on you would think Tesco just gave the Council £40m for nothing.
No, I am referring to the published final account and the land value (cost) was included.
Grant funding was less than £10m in total and would have been applicable had CCFC had the money to have completed the project in the first place.
I think IIRC The £10M. cash figure is supplemented with some Council land being in the Initial equation ,Thus the £21M. lease payback through ACL .Its also worth remembering that InItially ACL took the Stadium ownership on with a £900K. rental agreement .So they actually started off charging £0.3- 0.4M. premium ,which does'nt sound horrific.You could argue at the point where they took out the YB Mortgage they should have looked at reducung the Rent at that point .
Of course its an Interesting thought that as they started off on a rental basis and the Judicial Review determines that the loan was unlawful ,whether they may return to the original setup.
grego_gee
New Member
True the council have done very well out of 'it', but not out of the stadium itself - the stadium empty is of very little value! it is the club that fills the stadium and generates the income streams. SISU have realised this and have been forced to move out. The stadium is now empty and will not be generating much income if any but still has significant ongoing maintenance costs.
SISU hold the aces, they can build another Ricoh somewhere else. The council are reluctant to let go but in reallity they would be best advised to encourage SISU to build an alternative stadium INSIDE the boundaries of Coventry - after all THAT would be in the best interests of the City commercially. SISU will if the council insist, build anew OUTSIDE the boundaries of the city. It would be of little consequence for SISU to be inside or outside the boundary given goodwill for either. It makes sense for them to give all the time they can for the council to come to their senses and do a deal to sell the Ricoh freehold to SISU - if any alternative stadium is built either inside or outside the boundary the Ricoh will be left empty and become a huge liability rather than any sort of asset.
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James Smith
Well-Known Member
There was a deal to be done with ACL when SISU were still prepared to be tenants under a reduced rent.
There came a turning point when SISU realised it was not in their interests to continue under any sort of rent agreement at all.
From that point on there was no deal to be done with ACL.
A deal for the freehold can only be done with the council, and they are not free to sell the freehold without dissolving ACL first.
If there was a deal to be done why didn't they do it? Why are we homeless in self imposed exile in Northampton? Why didn't they start negotiations with the Higgs (who must really regret helping us out) earlier? What does our football club need from the freehold that owning ACL wouldn't give us?
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Its Personal James and Involves squashing CCC.
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
They need to own it so that Joy in her own words said "I need to recoup my investment". they can charge CCFC a rent for playing in the Ricoh and then reinvest any other money they make back into her first and only love SISU.
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
Hobo
Well-Known Member
Is the level of rent unfair? yes
Have SISU exercised the right to buy a share? No
Have ACL offered reduced rent?
Have SISU been Vigorous in negotiating rent ? No, most offers of door open seem to be from ACL
Is it a facility for ACL and CCC to give away? No there are mortgages and costs to cover.
Have SISU engaged fans with situation and sold them a sensible future financial plan? No I don't think so!
Can you trust them? No!
Don't bleat about they have done this and that. They are owners they have a duty to pay wages etc....judge them on what they haven't done...they run a closed shop and are clever, Self Interest rules.
Have SISU exercised the right to buy a share? No
Have ACL offered reduced rent?
Have SISU been Vigorous in negotiating rent ? No, most offers of door open seem to be from ACL
Is it a facility for ACL and CCC to give away? No there are mortgages and costs to cover.
Have SISU engaged fans with situation and sold them a sensible future financial plan? No I don't think so!
Can you trust them? No!
Don't bleat about they have done this and that. They are owners they have a duty to pay wages etc....judge them on what they haven't done...they run a closed shop and are clever, Self Interest rules.