SCG minutes... (28 Viewers)

[torchomatic]

Well, we shall see. ACL/CCC hardly dismiss any of the comments aimed at them, but then they always say they are not allowed. Interesting what he says about their PR company too. It would be interesting to know if any of that has any truth. I'm sure you'll tell me it hasn't.

In my opinion, based on his track record (he has been proved to be untruthfull in his statements in the past) and SISU's record as a whole I would say largely without truth and merit. My feeling is if he had any evidence to back up these claims we would have seen it by now. If there was some sort of 'smoking gun' that would change everyones opinion and but ACL / Higgs / Council under pressure I don't think they'd be hiding it. He seems to make outlandish claims knowing there is very little chance of any legal action being taken against him by the council for his statements.

 

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[chiefdave]

The suggestion that the council should negotiate with all the leaseholders, pay out all the leases and talk about selling the unfettered freehold is ludicrous in the extreme.

What isn't clear to me is that if SISU want the Ricoh and don't want the contracts why can they not take over with the contracts in place and then buy off / renegotiate the contracts themselves once they have ownership?

It's almost as if every time a move is made towards meeting SISUs requirements they add in something even more outlandish until it ends up at a point where what they are wanting is virtually impossible.

 

[Noggin]

What isn't clear to me is that if SISU want the Ricoh and don't want the contracts why can they not take over with the contracts in place and then buy off / renegotiate the contracts themselves once they have ownership?

It's almost as if every time a move is made towards meeting SISUs requirements they add in something even more outlandish until it ends up at a point where what they are wanting is virtually impossible.

AMEN! couldn't agree more with both statements.

 

[AJB1983]

AMEN! couldn't agree more with both statements.

Been like this all along. Sisu expecting acl/CCC to budge, and when they do they want more.
Hence them being impossible to deal with, they want everything on their terms.

 

[smileycov]

I was impressed and that surprised me. I do not think ccc or ACL are helping our cause. SISU have done wrong but so have they. I want acl to go, ccc to sell the ricoh or whatever to sisu and we come back home to coventry. if sisu remain in charge i think the future will be better than the way we were treated by them in the past. lessons learned maybe.

 

[The Gentleman]

He'd be accused of not being open.

The problem is with this tit is that a small simple sentence is enough, the more he rattles the deeper he gets. So no, I for one would welcome it if the little shit would shut his mouth

 

[limoncello]

What isn't clear to me is that if SISU want the Ricoh and don't want the contracts why can they not take over with the contracts in place and then buy off / renegotiate the contracts themselves once they have ownership?

It's almost as if every time a move is made towards meeting SISUs requirements they add in something even more outlandish until it ends up at a point where what they are wanting is virtually impossible.

But surely they would need to see ACL's books to determine whether it is viable to buy off/renegotiate contracts and if so what value to put on the package as it stands? After all, they've been lambasted for their poor due diligence regarding the rent by many, perhaps they don't want to make the same mistake again.

 

[Captain Dart]

ML was attacking ACL & its finances, nothing else mattered to him.. this new stadium is not really on his radar is it.. so in my opinion killing ACL is and always has been plan A.

 

[chiefdave]

Well, we shall see. ACL/CCC hardly dismiss any of the comments aimed at them, but then they always say they are not allowed. Interesting what he says about their PR company too. It would be interesting to know if any of that has any truth. I'm sure you'll tell me it hasn't.

I have no idea who Peter Ward is but he clearly isn't a fan of Weber Shandwick! The problem is it's again all unsubstantiated claims and everytime Weber Shandwick are mentioned there is no mention of the PR firm engaged by SISU.

I think the council would be correct in not responding to FOI requests about Weber Shandwick as they would be engaged by ACL. Not really that unusual for any company to engage a PR firm so unless there's some evidence they are doing something they shouldn't be I don't really have an issue with them.

 

[chiefdave]

But surely they would need to see ACL's books to determine whether it is viable to buy off/renegotiate contracts and if so what value to put on the package as it stands? After all, they've been lambasted for their poor due diligence regarding the rent by many, perhaps they don't want to make the same mistake again.

The price for purchasing ACL or the freehold will not be impacted by the amount it costs to buy off other contracts. Most potential owners would see having business in place generating revenue as a plus point! There is nothing stopping SISU approaching any of those businesses at the Ricoh and enquiring how much they would be looking for to have their contracts bought out. It's not a case of looking at ACLs books and coming up with a figure, its a case of what those that hold the contracts will accept.

Of course if SISU were to make a serious bid this kind of thing could be carried out under the due diligence process but why should the council / ACL waste time and money on it when there is no bid on the table?

 

[M&B Stand]

So when Sisu bring up the same old bull$hit we should just sit back and take it?

You can believe it but I feel better for passing comment.

Stick together and the Sisu era will be die by a thousand little cuts.

When you say WE, do you mean ACL or the Council?

 

[limoncello]

The price for purchasing ACL or the freehold will not be impacted by the amount it costs to buy off other contracts. Most potential owners would see having business in place generating revenue as a plus point! There is nothing stopping SISU approaching any of those businesses at the Ricoh and enquiring how much they would be looking for to have their contracts bought out. It's not a case of looking at ACLs books and coming up with a figure, its a case of what those that hold the contracts will accept.

Of course if SISU were to make a serious bid this kind of thing could be carried out under the due diligence process but why should the council / ACL waste time and money on it when there is no bid on the table?

But how can you make a bid without seeing the books? That just doesn't make sense to me. Do you just pluck a figure out of the air and go with that?

 

[Noggin]

But surely they would need to see ACL's books to determine whether it is viable to buy off/renegotiate contracts and if so what value to put on the package as it stands? After all, they've been lambasted for their poor due diligence regarding the rent by many, perhaps they don't want to make the same mistake again.

I don't believe for a second there was poor due diligence from sisu when buying the club regarding the rent at least. It's not some secret thing that wouldn't be discovered without great searching.

Haven't they already seen the books when doing due diligence to buy the higgs share in ACL and they can see the yearly accounts when they are published because unlike most companies run by sisu acl file their accounts on time.

But anyway it probably won't make good financial sense for them to buy off contracts which makes it even more ludicrous to suggest the council do it.

If they were actually interested in the stadium for the football club they should have brought acl, there is no benefit to the club having the freehold.

Thier talk of being willing to accept a 99 year lease is again just trying to look good in the eyes of people who don't understand that just like the council can't sell the freehold unfettered they also can't give a 99 year lease (well they can but you'd have to wait 42 years before they can do so)

 

[chiefdave]

But how can you make a bid without seeing the books? That just doesn't make sense to me. Do you just pluck a figure out of the air and go with that?

Same way anyone does when making a bid for something that isn't for sale. You could make a conditional bid based on certain assumptions. ACL have published accounts and the term of their lease has a known pro rata value. That would be your starting point.

Not entirely accurate but lets say someone wanted to buy your house. You haven't had it valued and therefore there is no asking price but if you received a speculative bid you would have a vague idea if it was a) way above value and something you should accept straight away b) about right c) way under value and not worth bothering with. You would respond accordingly but the buyer would then carry out surveys etc and may adjust their offer based on their findings. Gives you a rough idea of the process.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I read another set of minutes and ask the same question "Why can we not get an independent valuation done for the Arena?" It's obvious that they're interested in purchasing the Arena.. I just wish that both sides would achieve this it would provide a fair solution and possibly a quick end to all this mess.


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[chiefdave]

But how can you make a bid without seeing the books? That just doesn't make sense to me. Do you just pluck a figure out of the air and go with that?

If I was in charge at SISU I would go back to Higgs and complete that deal to purchase 50% of ACL at what is believed to be around £5m. I would then go to the council and make an offer of around £14m (essentially clearing the loan) for their 50% as a starting point and go from there, I think that would be a bid that would make the council think I was serious. That deal would be conditional on the lease being converted to a rolling lease with peppercorn rent. If I then wanted any other business out of the Ricoh I would negotiate with them individually.

 

[chiefdave]

I read another set of minutes and ask the same question "Why can we not get an independent valuation done for the Arena?" It's obvious that they're interested in purchasing the Arena.. I just wish that both sides would achieve this it would provide a fair solution and possibly a quick end to all this mess.

A valuation costs money, why should ACL or CCC pay out? Why don't SISU get a valuation done themselves and make an offer based off that.

 

[Captain Dart]

If I was in charge at SISU I would go back to Higgs and complete that deal to purchase 50% of ACL at what is believed to be around £5m. I would then go to the council and make an offer of around £14m (essentially clearing the loan) for their 50% as a starting point and go from there, I think that would be a bid that would make the council think I was serious. That deal would be conditional on the lease being converted to a rolling lease with peppercorn rent. If I then wanted any other business out of the Ricoh I would negotiate with them individually.

But that is a common sense approach.. which you know can't be done.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

A valuation costs money, why should ACL or CCC pay out? Why don't SISU get a valuation done themselves and make an offer based off that.

Because if CCFC get a valuation what chances are they going to be able to get access to the full ACL accounts meaning how reliable is the valuation going to be? Meaning further down the line any bid could just be considered unsatisfactory which also means a waste of time and money.


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[chiefdave]

Because if CCFC get a valuation what chances are they going to be able to get access to the full ACL accounts meaning how reliable is the valuation going to be? Meaning further down the line any bid could just be considered unsatisfactory which also means a waste of time and money.

Well ACL have filed accounts which should give the valuers a fair idea and enable them to come up with a decent valuation. At the very least it would show SISU are serious and put the ball in the councils court. If SISU made a serious bid based off a valuation the council would then have to respond and things would either move forward or we would see if the council were unfairly blocking SISU from purchasing.

 

[Noggin]

I read another set of minutes and ask the same question "Why can we not get an independent valuation done for the Arena?" It's obvious that they're interested in purchasing the Arena.. I just wish that both sides would achieve this it would provide a fair solution and possibly a quick end to all this mess.


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I've said this before to you I think, Sisu don't want to buy what the council can sell, so the talk of valuations is completely irrelevant, it's again just a smoke screen.

 

[limoncello]

If I was in charge at SISU I would go back to Higgs and complete that deal to purchase 50% of ACL at what is believed to be around £5m. I would then go to the council and make an offer of around £14m (essentially clearing the loan) for their 50% as a starting point and go from there, I think that would be a bid that would make the council think I was serious. That deal would be conditional on the lease being converted to a rolling lease with peppercorn rent. If I then wanted any other business out of the Ricoh I would negotiate with them individually.

Fair enough. But what if they bought Higgs share and then the council refused to negotiate? They would have spent £5m and not really gained anything (I believe ACL has a 5-man board and the Higgs share would give them 2 board places - which would mean they could technically be outvoted on any decisions).

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Well ACL have filed accounts which should give the valuers a fair idea and enable them to come up with a decent valuation. At the very least it would show SISU are serious and put the ball in the councils court. If SISU made a serious bid based off a valuation the council would then have to respond and things would either move forward or we would see if the council were unfairly blocking SISU from purchasing.

I think the JR will provide more answers and clarity to all this mess.

With respect to the valuation I do agree the Club should get the ball rolling.


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[chiefdave]

Fair enough. But what if they bought Higgs share and then the council refused to negotiate? They would have spent £5m and not really gained anything (I believe ACL has a 5-man board and the Higgs share would give them 2 board places - which would mean they could technically be outvoted on any decisions).

Well the Higgs share comes with 50% of revenues from the Ricoh complex (at the moment all going towards repaying the loan) and 100% of all matchday revenues so in itself would seem worth purchasing at that price.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I've said this before to you I think, Sisu don't want to buy what the council can sell, so the talk of valuations is completely irrelevant, it's again just a smoke screen.

I think we have had this discussion Noggin, a valuation might be a smoke screen but Sisu are making this noise if they want to show the fans they're serious they should go ahead and take the floor..


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[oldskyblue58]

If SISU get an independent valuation at say £5m and say CCC get a valuation at say £20m why do the council have to compromise to meet half way? Surely CCC are duty bound to get the full value and their advice received would be that's 20m. To sell at less than that value would be against Local authority rules but also likely to be seen as state aid

As owners of the freehold CCC are quite within their rights to say no unencumbered sale. It comes as is. To think that CCC could afford to pay off the various contracts to do this and still get a positive value at the end of it is simply ridiculous

They do not have to sell on terms demanded by SISU, no matter how often it is stated as the reasonable course of action. Keep hearing must sell, need to sell, its rightfully this or that. Well from the fans point of view it is what most want (not necessarily to SISU for many though), that does not mean that from other perspectives it is the right thing to do at all.

SISU can not pay the full market value simply because that wont get their investors the return on investment required. Right now they need to find a way to repay ARVO £9m+ and the original investors £28m that will not be done in buying the stadium at full market value there simply is not enough profit in it with or without the team being there

That leaves what is actually going on in my opinion....... court cases and legal challenges with the prospect of financial compensation

 

[chiefdave]

SISU can not pay the full market value simply because that wont get their investors the return on investment required. Right now they need to find a way to repay ARVO £9m+ and the original investors £28m that will not be done in buying the stadium at full market value there simply is not enough profit in it with or without the team being there

This is the key point. A lot of people talk about what is best for CCFC but that is not SISU's main concern, they need to get the best return for their investors. Buying the Ricoh at market value gives them no room to make a profit. However get a £40m stadium for next to nothing ...

 

[RoboCCFC90]

If SISU get an independent valuation at say £5m and say CCC get a valuation at say £20m why do the council have to compromise to meet half way? Surely CCC are duty bound to get the full value and their advice received would be that's 20m. To sell at less than that value would be against Local authority rules but also likely to be seen as state aid

As owners of the freehold CCC are quite within their rights to say no unencumbered sale. It comes as is. To think that CCC could afford to pay off the various contracts to do this and still get a positive value at the end of it is simply ridiculous

They do not have to sell on terms demanded by SISU, no matter how often it is stated as the reasonable course of action. Keep hearing must sell, need to sell, its rightfully this or that. Well from the fans point of view it is what most want (not necessarily to SISU for many though), that does not mean that from other perspectives it is the right thing to do at all.

SISU can not pay the full market value simply because that wont get their investors the return on investment required. Right now they need to find a way to repay ARVO £9m+ and the original investors £28m that will not be done in buying the stadium at full market value there simply is not enough profit in it with or without the team being there

That leaves what is actually going on in my opinion....... court cases and legal challenges with the prospect of financial compensation

I see no reason why CCC should compromise with costs but it's gives CCFC the Benchmark of what they should be offering..


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[sky blue john]

I am trying to work out why Acl's books are required to purchase the ricoh freehold. When Acl are a Seperate entity to the owners of the ricoh. Its like saying i want to buy ccfc and demanding i see Arvos books aswell as Otium's. Only one of the two sets of books is related to what your purchasing.
Anyway they only want to pick at Acl's books for the JR.

 

[oldskyblue58]

Do you really think that SISU are interested in offering what the CCC think it is worth though Robbo?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Do you really think that SISU are interested in offering what the CCC think it is worth though Robbo?

I partly agree OSB however at least using your example Sisu can then decide whether the valuation prie established is what they're willing to pay.. £20M for the Ricoh (your example) or £25M for a stadium with 1/4 of the potential..


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[chiefdave]

Do you really think that SISU are interested in offering what the CCC think it is worth though Robbo?

Do you think we're at a point now where SISU have to get the Ricoh for next to nothing or they are out of options? I can't really see any other way they can get close to recouping what has been put in even if you assume the actual figure 'invested' is far lower than they claim.

If they had to walk away how big an impact will it be on them? Will they have written off the money invested over time or will they have a big hole at the point they walk away?

 

[Captain Dart]

Do you think we're at a point now where SISU have to get the Ricoh for next to nothing or they are out of options? I can't really see any other way they can get close to recouping what has been put in even if you assume the actual figure 'invested' is far lower than they claim.

If they had to walk away how big an impact will it be on them? Will they have written off the money invested over time or will they have a big hole at the point they walk away?

I think they have to win the JR & distress ACL otherwise the game is up & all they can do is cut their losses.. this will not take place quickly, there will be a few more years of litigation.

 

[sky blue john]

Another point that ml made that that i laughed at is the bit about it is illegal for two or more people to conspire to damage a third party.

 

[Captain Dart]

Another point that ml made that that i laughed at is the bit about it is illegal for two or more people to conspire to damage a third party.

I saw that one, it happens all the time, you don't think large companies don't conspire to damage their competitors.