SCG minutes... (15 Viewers)

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
I still don't understand what difference it makes if you're trying to purchase 50% or even 100% of ACL. Prior to the change ACL were paying Yorkshire Bank, after they were paying CCC (at a lower rate). I don't really follow SISU's arguement. If I was buying a company and during the talks (although in this instance didn't it happen later) refinancing took place putting the debt on better terms I would view it as a good thing.

I am not sure if this is the case. It might be, but the key thing is that the terms of the mortgage are over a much longer period, thus reducing the capital payment each month and making the loan more manageable with the lack of football revenue streams.

Part of the JR argument is that this sort of loan would not have been available on the market which put ACL at a commercial advantage due to the state money... pretty hard to argue against that tbh...
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
So this centres then on SISU stating they were deliberately trying to deceive Yorkshire Bank by colluding with the council to create a false impression that ACL were distressed. Not sure I'd be wanting to stand up in court and state that. What was Labovich's quote from the last meeting? "It’s against the law for 2 or more people to conspire to cause damage to the business of a third party".

And of course, we have yet to see any actual evidence from SISU or Yorkshire Bank of that being true.

Similarly we have seen no evidence saying that it isn't true. Were CCFC/CCC trying to deceive YB by colluding? Possibly, but you can also argue that the club which is losing money hand over fist is within it's rights to try and renegotiate the rent. At the end of the day it is not like CCFC had the money to pay the rent... to pay the rent they needed Sisu to transfer the money, and if Sisu were only willing to pay the wages at this point what else could they do...

Look I realise this is making me look like a tool lol I am just trying to get across that it is not cut and dry what was going on, which is why I look forward to the JR to get some of the facts from both sides into the public domain - there is a massive lack of information from the council/ACL side from where I am standing....
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I wasn't actually aware of this. Are you saying the FL told Sisu they had to pay the full 1.7m outstanding (including the 1y break clause) or just what they were offered in the CVA. I guess it makes a little more sense, but at the time of rejecting the CVA they couldn't have known that the FL would have made them pay?

The full amount was around £600k and I think the amount to be paid back is around £573k so the total debt was no where near as high as you are being led to be believed.

I assume the payback is the legal responsibility of the liquidator as sisu no longer control the firm.
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
The full amount was around £600k and I think the amount to be paid back is around £573k so the total debt was no where near as high as you are being led to be believed.

I assume the payback is the legal responsibility of the liquidator as sisu no longer control the firm.

Right but there was a 1 year rent break clause applied to the debt adding on another years rent at 1.whatever million.... so they get that as well, or just the arrears... which was about what the CVA offer was give or take.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Right but there was a 1 year rent break clause applied to the debt adding on another years rent at 1.whatever million.... so they get that as well, or just the arrears... which was about what the CVA offer was give or take.

Yes it is the debt and it's about the same as the CVA
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
Yes it is the debt and it's about the same as the CVA

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/sisu-agrees-write-32m-debt-4872430

Sisu companies have agreed to write off £32million of debt as part of Coventry City administrator Paul Appleton’s sale to Otium for £1.5million, we can exclusively reveal.

Arena Coventry Limited, as an non-connected unsecured creditor, would get 25.95p in the pound back on its debts if it agrees to the Company Voluntary Arrangement (CVA) proposed by Mr Appleton.

That would see £553,261 returned to it.


This was the turning point in the whole dispute for me. Until then I was 100% pro-ACL. After this I now vent my anger at all parties involved.
 

chiefdave

Well-Known Member
This was the turning point in the whole dispute for me. Until then I was 100% pro-ACL. After this I now vent my anger at all parties involved.

What in that made you changed your mind? The £32m SISU wrote off wasn't really their money was it? Wasn't it debt from before they tookover that they had kept on the books not actually money they'd ever put in.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
I can't remember a break clause ever being mentioned before.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
What in that made you changed your mind? The £32m SISU wrote off wasn't really their money was it? Wasn't it debt from before they tookover that they had kept on the books not actually money they'd ever put in.

Sorry to clarify, I refer to ACL rejection of the CVA as the turning point for me. Yeah the SISU write off just shows why you keep the debt on the books incase you need it later on.
 

oldskyblue58

CCFC Finance Director
just exactly when do you think that £32m disappeared or was lost ?

You see everything that SISU investors and ARVO ever actually put in is still owing
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
I can't remember a break clause ever being mentioned before.....


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

It is in the telegraph article linked above...

That figure is made up of a percentage of the debt it is owed in unpaid Sky Blues rent; and another year’s rent effectively as compensation for the lease agreement being broken between ACL and the Sky Blues, which has around 40 years remaining on it.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
Sorry to clarify, I refer to ACL rejection of
the CVA as the turning point for me. Yeah the SISU write off just shows why you keep the debt on the books incase you need it later on.

I should imagine Acl's directors had no choice but reject the cva due to the fact that the lease would be broken costing their company millions ?
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
If SISU get an independent valuation at say £5m and say CCC get a valuation at say £20m why do the council have to compromise to meet half way? Surely CCC are duty bound to get the full value and their advice received would be that's 20m. To sell at less than that value would be against Local authority rules but also likely to be seen as state aid

As owners of the freehold CCC are quite within their rights to say no unencumbered sale. It comes as is. To think that CCC could afford to pay off the various contracts to do this and still get a positive value at the end of it is simply ridiculous

They do not have to sell on terms demanded by SISU, no matter how often it is stated as the reasonable course of action. Keep hearing must sell, need to sell, its rightfully this or that. Well from the fans point of view it is what most want (not necessarily to SISU for many though), that does not mean that from other perspectives it is the right thing to do at all.

SISU can not pay the full market value simply because that wont get their investors the return on investment required. Right now they need to find a way to repay ARVO £9m+ and the original investors £28m that will not be done in buying the stadium at full market value there simply is not enough profit in it with or without the team being there

That leaves what is actually going on in my opinion....... court cases and legal challenges with the prospect of financial compensation

Nailed it, OSB. If the Council get a valuation then there won't be scope for much movement on that if they are to comply with their statutory duty of maximising any return on a sale of public assets.

The interesting thing about the JR is that there isn't any direct mechanism for compensation (as I understand it). If the JR succeeds, I think the worst thing that happens is that ACL are forced to find another lender. There's absolutely no guarantee that they go bust, or that SISU suddenly get to be the sole bidder if they choose to sell the business.

To be clear, as you know, the JR in itself cannot break ACL. They're not in court and have no costs.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I should imagine Acl's directors had no choice but reject the cva due to the fact that the lease would be broken costing their company millions ?

Wrong they would have signed if the 2 conditions were met.
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
I should imagine Acl's directors had no choice but reject the cva due to the fact that the lease would be broken costing their company millions ?

I think it was the process that ACL were deeply unhappy about - how a company that once was the football club suddenly turned into a vehicle containing only the lease and a vast amount of debt. The direct quote is here:

http://www.football.co.uk/coventry_city/acl_not_stopping_ccfc_ltd_being_liquidated_rss4395693.shtml

Speaking to the Coventry Telegraph's Les Reid, an ACL Spokesman said:

"ACL’s motivation for rejecting the CVA was about much more than pure financial interest. Along with various other parties, ranging from Sky Blues fans and Supporters Direct through to local MPs and potential bidders, ACL was not happy with the way the administration process was run.


Accepting the CVA would have been a tacit approval of a process that few people save Sisu and the administrator had any faith in. Along with HMRC, ACL rejected the CVA. We did so because we have significant doubts about how the process has been managed – particularly with new evidence that the administrator should have been aware of coming to light on an almost weekly basis."
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
Wrong they would have signed if the 2 conditions were met.

Im not wrong dummy of course they would they would have signed if the two conditions were met because that would have salvaged ccfc revenue streams.
But as Acl directors they are really going to say go on Sisu we are happy that your breaking the lease which is probably costing Acl over the term upwards of 20million !!!!
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Im not wrong dummy of course they would they would have signed if the two conditions were met because that would have salvaged ccfc revenue streams.
But as Acl directors they are really going to say go on Sisu we are happy that your breaking the lease which is probably costing Acl over the term upwards of 20million !!!!

But you said they wouldn't sign because if the lease - yes they would. The two conditions we can summise were the stopping of the JR and the commitment to sign the lease which I believe was £150,000 plus matchday costs and increased if crowds increased.

As for the ACL having concerns lets a be honest. They began this process as they wanted Haskell in control. They got it very wrong. PWKH I assume can't post on here anymore but I suspect, strongly suspect he was in favour of signing it. Rejecting it pretty much slammed the door for returning back to the ground.
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
The lease is not broken until ccfc ltd is liquidated which i think you will find is still ongoing !!!

As far as CCFC was concerned, regardless of accepting or rejecting the CVA there was no longer a lease for the football club at the Ricoh... so again I assert that your statement that they had no choice due to the lease is wrong. Duffer has posted their statement for rejecting the CVA... but principles and money should not be mixed. At the time they were presented the choice between 550k+ and 10k and they chose 10k.

Now if they knew they would get paid regardless then the choice was spiteful... if they didn't know they were getting paid then the choice was pretty dumb from where I am standing.
 

sky blue john

Well-Known Member
But you said they wouldn't sign because if the
lease - yes they would. The two conditions we can summise were the stopping of the JR and the commitment to sign the lease which I believe was £150,000 plus matchday costs and increased if crowds increased.

As for the ACL having concerns lets a be honest. They began this process as they wanted Haskell in control. They got it very wrong. PWKH I assume can't post on here anymore but I suspect, strongly suspect he was in favour of signing it. Rejecting it pretty much slammed the door for returning back to the ground.

I am saying that because lease was in the process of being broken without a new one in place they wouldnt sign the cva.
But we both know that Sisu had no intention of returning even if the cva had been signed.
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
I am saying that because lease was in the process of being broken without a new one in place they wouldnt sign the cva.
But we both know that Sisu had no intention of returning even if the cva had been signed.

That's not what you said - and the attempt to include a new lease in the negotiation was, as Appleton stated, not part of legal process so I guess Mucas and her bunch of cronies really are as dumb as they look and sound.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
I am saying that because lease was in the process of being broken without a new one in place they wouldnt sign the cva.
But we both know that Sisu had no intention of returning even if the cva had been signed.

So what did ACL gain from rejecting it? If anything it just gave sisu another excuse to stay away. I believe we'd have had more chance of returning this season had they not rejected it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
But you said they wouldn't sign because if the lease - yes they would. The two conditions we can summise were the stopping of the JR and the commitment to sign the lease which I believe was £150,000 plus matchday costs and increased if crowds increased.

As for the ACL having concerns lets a be honest. They began this process as they wanted Haskell in control. They got it very wrong. PWKH I assume can't post on here anymore but I suspect, strongly suspect he was in favour of signing it. Rejecting it pretty much slammed the door for returning back to the ground.

Let's be honest, ACL started this process because SISU wouldn't pay the rent or negotiate honestly regarding a reduction.

I don't doubt ACL would've wanted anyone else in control of the club, given SISU's continually escalating demands. Less rent, then access to income streams, then the freehold, now the 'unencumbered' freehold.

In the meantime, of course, SISU have shown that they're happy for the club (and fans) to suffer as long as it progresses their attempt to distress ACL. Let's not pretend being at Northampton is about anything else, eh.
 

Godiva

Well-Known Member
It is in the telegraph article linked above...

There are two parts in the final 'settlement'
1) The original sum owed to ACL when entering administration
2) 1 yr lease break (why so little - surely replacing ccfc as tenant will take more than one year?)

It's interesting that the 1.5m offer from Otium coupled with a 1yr break compensation equals to ACL receiving almost the original sum owed.
I could almost (well, I do actually) think that the result was given and then the price and the compensation was set accordingly.

So yes - ACL will receive approximately what they were owed, so FL's condition was met.
 

stupot07

Well-Known Member
As far as CCFC was concerned, regardless of accepting or rejecting the CVA there was no longer a lease for the football club at the Ricoh... so again I assert that your statement that they had no choice due to the lease is wrong. Duffer has posted their statement for rejecting the CVA... but principles and money should not be mixed. At the time they were presented the choice between 550k+ and 10k and they chose 10k.

Now if they knew they would get paid regardless then the choice was spiteful... if they didn't know they were getting paid then the choice was pretty dumb from where I am standing.

I'm pretty sure the FL said that we had to pay ACL the £550k+ not the 10k on rejecting the CVA as a condition of Otium getting to golden share.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)
 

duffer

Well-Known Member
As far as CCFC was concerned, regardless of accepting or rejecting the CVA there was no longer a lease for the football club at the Ricoh... so again I assert that your statement that they had no choice due to the lease is wrong. Duffer has posted their statement for rejecting the CVA... but principles and money should not be mixed. At the time they were presented the choice between 550k+ and 10k and they chose 10k.

Now if they knew they would get paid regardless then the choice was spiteful... if they didn't know they were getting paid then the choice was pretty dumb from where I am standing.

Fwiw, if it comes to principles and money, I respect principles every time.

There was no spite in this. In what way would they get paid regardless?

Rejecting the CVA highlighted how bent the whole process was. Notionally, the way the administration was run cost ACL £40m in future income too - so rejecting it on the basis that there was even a slim chance of further investigation or action wasn't the worst decision from a purely financial point either.
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
Fwiw, if it comes to principles and money, I respect principles every time.

There was no spite in this. In what way would they get paid regardless?

Rejecting the CVA highlighted how bent the whole process was. Notionally, the way the administration was run cost ACL £40m in future income too - so rejecting it on the basis that there was even a slim chance of further investigation or action wasn't the worst decision from a purely financial point either.

Read what I wrote again... I didn't say they would get paid regardless. I commented if they knew/were aware that they were going to get paid regardless of their choice.

As a paid director of a company, your job is to accept the best deal for your owners regardless of principles or dislike of the other party. At the time their choice could hardly be considered the best value for the company, or the owners (CCC and ergo taxpayers).
 

Specs WT-R75

Well-Known Member
I'm pretty sure the FL said that we had to pay ACL the £550k+ not the 10k on rejecting the CVA as a condition of Otium getting to golden share.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors :)

Yes, but this happened after the CVA was rejected. At the time they could not have known that the FL were going to make Otium pay the full debt could they? I'm pretty sure if Sisu knew this then they would have made sure that the CVA offer came to more than the outstanding arrears when considering the break clause...
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
I hold my hands up - I did your name thing as an example so you just might perhaps see it as some others might, and see how pointless it seems. I don't find it particularly offensive, just that it diminishes the effect of some of the more salient points that are being made.

No problem.

As I have said a few times now whilst SISU are suing anyone to get what they want.....even though by law they are not allowed to give what they want......including a local childrens charity......I will call them SISUE. Not as strong as what I would like to call them but we do have kids on here. In a strange way it makes me feel slightly better. :D
 

James Smith

Well-Known Member
Well having read all that I suspect that Mr Labovitch has had a chat with somebody in the legal profession. I say that he is now using the qualifier that this is his personal opinion and so that it can’t be construed as fact.
*
So he thinks that ACL is functionally bust as it can only survive with and injection of more cash. The same can be said of our club though can’t it – it can only survive with and injection of more cash. Who has the bigger debts/money that may be owed to someone? Anyway this is his opinion though and not a fact, ACL have yet to produce their accounts (at least they do them & on time). So he then tries to give some substance to this by mentioning the going concern statement and explaining it for those who might not be up to speed. Here he talks about the ACL no longer being in negotiaitions with our club and and that affecting it as well as the Judicial Review. We don’t know if ACL are doing better or worse without our club playing there, no accounts due yet. The only thing that we have heard before the legal curtain dropped was on the CWR from PWKH saying they were doing better. We will have to wait for the accounts to come out before we can know for definite if he was telling the truth. Then there is the Judicial Review and we don’t know when this will finally be settled be it this financial year or some distant date in the future thanks to appeals dragging it out.
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Then he says that Ms Lucas has offered support and implies but again has nothing to back it up that this will probably be financial. The next bit is again about the going concern and is at best a bleak prediction of the future of ACL (Mystic Mark anyone?) - we’ve moved on don’t forget - and at worst an attempt to distress them further with negative comments. Lucky he is only expressing a personal opinion. It ends with the line
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ML said:
A councillor has today said it won’t be financial support but I’m not clear on that.
What is he not clear on? To check I wasn’t missing something I’ve shown it to a few people at work and everyone understood it to mean that the council won’t be providing financial support.
*
Then we move onto what’s for sale and well you can kind of understand if the Higgs now don’t want to sell to SISU given the news from last week. Whether something is for sale probably depends on the price, my house technically isn’t for sale. I like living there and am not keen to move however if someone offered me what I consider to be a reasonable amount (at least double what I think it’s worth) I’d be out of there faster than Sisu from the Ricoh. I can’t comment on the valuations stuff as I don’t know enough about it but I wasn’t aware the council had done one. I thought the only one in existence was the YB one when ACL were under the financial cosh from SISU not paying rent, has another one emerged or doe he mean that one?
*
*
SB – I don’t remember it being said that you want to make an offer.
ML – we’d need access to their books. We could ask that if we get an Independent Valuation done, would you (ACL) give access to carry that out.*
So no chance that question is going to get answered?
*
Then he mentions the change in tack regarding Plan A, we no longer consider building the new stadium as Plan A or do we? Are we to understand that North Korea is not for sale or that they don’t sell freeholds there? Yes as many people have been saying on this site for a while that a long leasehold is as good as a freehold for our club. It is nice to think that Sisu have found a way of explaining it better or have finally come round to this way of thinking about long leaseholds.
*
Now we get on to retail (okay so Mark mentions a shop) and we need to be clear about this theoretical shop and what we are talking about. If you were offered the freehold with a sitting retail tenant then all you’re being offered is the freehold. If you think you can make more money than the leaseholder then you could always offer to buy them out, having acquired the freehold on the cheap if as he says it isn’t worth very much with a sitting tenant. However I thought he just said that the council don’t sell freeholds?
*
More speculation about ACL finances that are again only his opinion and that you’d stop injecting cash rather than shut it down. So if ACL don’t need any more money loaning (and we don’t know one way or another if they do) and are making enough to prosper you’re back to the sitting retail tenant he mentioned before.
*
Very please to hear that the future of the club is not dependent on the outcome of the JR,as that must mean that the costs of the legal action won’t be added to the already stratospheric debts that we have. Just get on and buy the land and build the stadium stop talking about it being tipping point etc. - we’ve either moved on or we haven’t stop being indecisive. If AEG think they can turn the Ricoh into a world class venue what do they need you for other than to provide our club? Couldn’t they buy ACL and rent to the club? I can’t comment on the bits about the Judicial review because I haven’t seen all the arguments from both sides and whether anything was signed.
*
Then we hit this
*
ML – At the final creditors meeting, the first vote was Peter Wyndham Knatchbull-Hugessen, he voted for the CVA on behalf of the Alan Higgs Centre Trust. Martin Reeves then rejected on behalf of ACL. HMRC always reject CVAs and in any case this is irrelevant as Ltd. is in the same VAT group as the other club companies. I was confused by Peter. He approves it, then a company he’s 50% shareholder of rejects it.I wondered if that suggested a split on the board of ACL. Then he saidon social media that he fully supported ACL rejecting it. Very confusing.
*
No there's two separate parties involved here that Mr Labovitch is confusing whether because of a lack of knowledge or deliberately I haven't got the faintest idea. PWKH is Chairman of the trustees of the AHCT which because of charity rules and regs can’t easily reject a CVA, he is also on the board of ACL but was I guess only wearing his AHCT hat that day. Therefore he was only acting for them and not as a director of ACL which Mr Martin Reeve was that day. You’d think Mr Labovitch would understand that concept, given he managed not to hear an offer made by ACL because he was acting as a director of CCFC (holdings or limited) on that day and not Otium.
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It’s good to hear that SP is being given a chance to manage the team/squad and we’re not back to the bad old days he mentions with Ken D and Onye.
*
It’s interesting to hear that the he says SISU are not suing anyone, (although obviously their lawyers have been in touch with loads of people) and that the Higgs shouldn’t be risking their donors money. Well last time I checked their donor (and his son) are both dead so probably won’t get too upset that the charity is just doing what it’s supposed to do which is take steps to recover money owed to it. He mentions the council as well but again we have no actual facts about whether ACL are meeting their repayments or not and speculation helps nobody. The counterclaim is fair enough but they could still have just defended it, if they are in the right and not antagonised the Higgs further.
*
Then there is stuff about the JR and when it is and what procedural stuff takes place. Then we come to the most depressing news of all………he says that the new ground location won’t be announced in three weeks – he was misquoted. So we’re getting ever closer to a whole year with no news on a site or any plans. Brilliant :(
 

Grendel

Well-Known Member
Just out if interest James why are you so passionate about defending ACL and the councils position yet never seem to offer an opinion on nostalgic posts about the club at all?
 

Ashdown1

New Member
Just out if interest James why are you so passionate about defending ACL and the councils position yet never seem to offer an opinion on nostalgic posts about the club at all?

Wouldn't you like to add to any other thread that doesn't involve ACL/SISU. You're going to be fucked for what to post when all this shite has been eventually sorted out !
 

Astute

Well-Known Member
Just out if interest James why are you so passionate about defending ACL and the councils position yet never seem to offer an opinion on nostalgic posts about the club at all?

So you can't have any points to disagree on what he has posted then.
 

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