shmmeee
Well-Known Member
On another note. Why the focus on a rental deal that is no longer valid and isn't the offer on the table?
Why the incessant refusal to deal with the issues we face today?
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On another note. Why the focus on a rental deal that is no longer valid and isn't the offer on the table?
Why the incessant refusal to deal with the issues we face today?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
Why are you putting words in my mouth? I've not said that the rent being high is justification for them wanting the freehold, you have.
The simple, isolated point is that they spent too much money on wages etc. The rent set by ACL was also too high. That's it. It isn't a difficult concept.
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
I am not arguing nothing I am just asking that if you are to refer to issues of Contracts, Transfers, Managerial Appointments, you state the blame to the correct party i.e the Club, Joy Seppala is Sisu and has no active to day, to day running with the Club, however the Club employs Tim Fisher who does such activity and Ray Ranson before him.
I was never instigating an argument with you merely pointing out where you were inaccurate, something you seem to love doing constantly, same with The Gent.
If you don't like it be A-C-C-U-R-A-T-E
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I know. It's so simple everyone grasped it over a year ago. You're the one that keeps bringing it up.
I'll state this simply and maybe at last you can grasp why your opinion is at odds with the vast majority of City fans:
I have no problem with the club trying to renegotiate the rent. It's the tactics they used and the effectiveness of those tactics that I have an issue with.
If Sisu had taken the £450k offer or the £150k offer or even the £0k offer on the table at the moment, they would not have 95% of City fans wanting them out. It's not even the greediness of wanting the whole site for free. It's the fact that they've moved us to Northampton needlessly.
Edit: and what words did I put in your mouth? I (and several others) answered your question and asked a couple of my own. Yet I notice you ignored that to go on some paranoid rant.
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RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
I'd actually prefer that if we can all be supportive of this it would make things a lot easier.
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
Tim Fisher.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Interesting. Not sure if I disagree to be honest, it's hard to pull the two apart because he started when Joy became more involved.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Sorry - and not wishing to continue this - that's wrong. In October 2012, Fisher commented how 'hands on' Joy Seppala is, and that he 'speaks to her every day'. Joy is CEO of SISU Capital.
There is an invisible line, from the effective ownership of the club to their appointed officer; and therefore it's not 'inaccurate' to term them as one; especially when they cooperate as closely as the club's senior official confirms.
When SISU's CEO is in daily contact with the club - as is claimed by the club's CEO - it's fair to surmise she has a hand in significant decisions such as contracts being awarded; and operating in conjunction with their appointed senor official will make such decisions. Therefore, and in this light, it's not as profoundly wrong as you are trying to make it out to term contracts 'SISU awarded', as presumably they have the ultimate sanction?
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
The point was only brought up in the context of a post about how the club runs in the future.
There is a contradiction between the assertion that SISU's lack of spending saw us relegated from the Championship and the assertion that the rent wasn't an issue because they spent too much on personnel!
Grendel
Well-Known Member
The flaw here of course is that when quoting turnover you have to context the industry in. The wage bill in those percentages is normal by football standards but you'd struggle to find many rents at 12% in the industry and the real relevant figure is turnover through the turnstiles. This was up to 25% at one stage - outrageous by any standards.
And of course our turnover is suppressed due to the restrictions of the deal....
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
But you are, I talk to my Mum every day yet this has no baring on everything I do, now where as I don't think Mr Fisher is slightly taking the fall for every issue Sisu have caused I believe TF is responsible for a lot of the issues we face today at our Club.
Also if Joy Seppala was as you hint wouldn't this be considered a Shadow Director which is something we know is forbidden by the FA/FL?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
Not at all. You'd have to look at where those wages were being spent (Doyle on £100k 
) and when they were cut.
Correct me if I'm wrong but accounts go April-April so you can't pull out one season.
I'd also argue that trying to run a club at a profit at that time was foolish with FFP looming. And I'd argue it's less about the whole number than about where it went. Finally, much like the rent row, it's no good cutting your outgoings by a couple of million if it leads to your revenue being cut by more.
A smaller, slower reduction in wages could've seen us survive another year and cut more. Instead we lost millions and are back at square one.
And above all of this, the real issue was poor fan communication on what was happening and why.
You'll get no argument from me that the club are overspending. But so is every other club.
) and when they were cut. Correct me if I'm wrong but accounts go April-April so you can't pull out one season.
I'd also argue that trying to run a club at a profit at that time was foolish with FFP looming. And I'd argue it's less about the whole number than about where it went. Finally, much like the rent row, it's no good cutting your outgoings by a couple of million if it leads to your revenue being cut by more.
A smaller, slower reduction in wages could've seen us survive another year and cut more. Instead we lost millions and are back at square one.
And above all of this, the real issue was poor fan communication on what was happening and why.
You'll get no argument from me that the club are overspending. But so is every other club.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I agree, it's a point we've made a lot.
To counterpoint: if she's not in ultimate control, why does everyone else need her sign off on any rent deal? Why does she call the stadium project exciting if she's not involved?
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
Counter question which may answer your own question: If you were Sisu and had seen how your investment has been thrown down the toilet would you not request every moved that was made not to be run through yourself first?
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Fisher says she's 'hands on'. How many times do I need to type Fisher's own words? Or are you saying she's massaging him, and that's the meaning of 'hands on'?
When they talk daily, and she's 'hands on' - she's influencing affairs. Certainly significant affairs such as contracts. As ultimate owner, she's ever liable to be. As to know that sits with the shadow directors ruling is for the authorities to view in the context of Fisher's own interview. But my guess, as ever, is that they'll d nothing.
Again, this is not my assertion, it is me reporting Fisher's own words. I find it incredible you are taking such a disingenuous view
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
If you have such proof why don't you tell it to the FL and get them to investigate it?
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Again, a disingenuous view. Yes, there was an overspend on personal – and managers – but this was primarily in the years 2007 to 2011 (that's already been acknowledged in this thread). Howeve, in the relegation year, again, this was our movement of personal when compared to the previous season:
Players in: 4: Chris Dunn, Joe Murphy, Cody McDonald and Hermann Hreiðarsson
Players out: 14 including: Michael McIndoe, Marlon King, Keiren Westwood, Aron Gunnarsson, Lee Carsley, Ben Turner and Lukas Jutkiewicz
Of the 7 players I’ve listed above; and there is no way you can persuade me that there was not a profoundly significant downturn in personal costs. Therefore, it is quite fair to draw a line between SISU’s overspend in the years 2007 to 2011; and that which came thereafter. It’s not a paradoxical view to hold
fernandopartridge
Well-Known Member
It isn't illegal to be a shadow director. I am not sure what the FL think about it but I suppose what they think is irrelevant by now.
I agree with MMM, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest JS has a level of influence on the running of the club. Why would she not as the CEO of a company that has the majority shareholding? It's slightly similar to any perceived influence Mutton or Lucas has on ACL.
I agree with MMM, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest JS has a level of influence on the running of the club. Why would she not as the CEO of a company that has the majority shareholding? It's slightly similar to any perceived influence Mutton or Lucas has on ACL.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Proof? I don't need feckin' proof. It's all over the internet. It's on the club's own website, for Christ's sake:
http://www.ccfc.co.uk/news/article/fisher-confirms-onye-igwe-departure-367241.aspx
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
No need to bring Christ into this..
Okay so you have a point if you think they're in the wrong tell the FL as it's against there regulations and you have proof.
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
And if you really want me to rub it in, Rob; read Fisher's own words:
“There has been a change of personnel at Sisu and the people, who were previously responsible for the football club, have left Sisu"
Does he draw the same semantic division bewteen the club, and SISU, as you've been trying to do?
“There has been a change of personnel at Sisu and the people, who were previously responsible for the football club, have left Sisu"
Does he draw the same semantic division bewteen the club, and SISU, as you've been trying to do?
RoboCCFC90
Well-Known Member
Can you clarify something for me when you say rub it in, does this mean your being hands on or metaphorically?
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
I'll keep biblical references to a minimum now you're playing nicely
What do you think they'd do even if such control was deemed improper? We're meant to be in a new stadium in a couple of years - with the Football League standing over developments - and right now, all we have is a Play-Doh model on Fisher's kids farm model. They're not doing much about that, either
Mary_Mungo_Midge
Well-Known Member
Well, it's a few days to pay-day yet; and I'll do most things that pay their way until we arrive there...
ccfcway
Well-Known Member
“Joy is now hands-on. I speak to her every single day and, by the way, she comes to games and, by the way, she stood in front of the players and told them very clearly what it is she expects, and what the fans expect.”
she told them the fans expect us to play in Coventry ?
she told them the fans expect us to play in Coventry ?
J
Jack Griffin
Guest
First breach in Waggots wall.
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I think (think) that the FL were informed of her being a shadow director but didn't look into it. I thought it was around the time of Otium taking over.
chiefdave
Well-Known Member
Didn't the trust give the FL a load of information which the league claimed they had never received despite the trust having proof they had?
shmmeee
Well-Known Member
I knew about them sending the pack of info. Didn't know the outcome of it.
letsallsingtogether
Well-Known Member
If it is that easy to make money on academy players year after year then all clubs would adopt this.
There have been seasons where they have struggled to get more then 2 decent players.
seems to come in cycles. After all we are at a lower division then before so more of the players will shine.
Would this still be the case if we were in the Prem?
Not having a go just making a general comment on why it may have not worked so well in the past.
There have been seasons where they have struggled to get more then 2 decent players.
seems to come in cycles. After all we are at a lower division then before so more of the players will shine.
Would this still be the case if we were in the Prem?
Not having a go just making a general comment on why it may have not worked so well in the past.
D
Deleted member 4232
Guest
Have to say I agree with the article, love seeing a team with home grown talent. I for one like seeing the west midlands successful with football, regardless of meaningless rivalries etc; it's good to see midland teams do well.
stupot07
Well-Known Member
Probably not but then we would be able to sell them on and loaning them to lower league clubs in the championship and lower for a tidy profit. Not sure how the EPPP rules are going to work in that respect.
Plus Southampton and palace seem to be able to produce a decent stream of talent as does Crewe.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - so please excuse any spelling or grammar errors
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chiefdave
Well-Known Member
You have to wonder if the turmoil at the club is going to impact on the ability to sign even academy players. If they're good and have offers from elsewhere do we look a good proposition these days. I guess the plus for signing would be you'd probably get in the first team before too long!