Seasons End (8 Viewers)

[stupot07]

And they surely would. With appeals and secondary cases taken into account, all of a sudden you get to Timmy's 3 years to be back in Cov. At the Ricoh, with the huge drop in revenue caused by playing at Northampton used as a claim for compensation that would instead land them the Ricoh. Oh, fuck the fans by the way. Lovely people.

Given they were offered a lower rent deal, and chose not to take it I can't see a judge being sympathetic enough to award them damages regardless of the outcome of the JR.

 

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[spider_ricoh]

Given they were offered a lower rent deal, and chose not to take it I can't see a judge being sympathetic enough to award them damages regardless of the outcome of the JR.

Remember what Timmy said ... SISU batter people in court. They hire the best lawyers and could convince a court that black is white if needed. I'm praying for the council to win the JR but it is unlikely to end there..next it would be an appeal and then SISU will find another way to make life uncomfortable by harrassing litigation etc.

 

[dongonzalos]

Given they were offered a lower rent deal, and chose not to take it I can't see a judge being sympathetic enough to award them damages regardless of the outcome of the JR.

Yes I concur

Which is interesting.

If they don't get their damages and the judge finds in their favour. He or she may also ask what is the significance of reversing the decision (by the council to take over the loan.)
If SISU have moved on and are building a new stadium what is to be gained by quashing the action of the council. Nothing?

So the judge could still find in SISU's favour but not help them out

 

[Grendel]

So it will end up for sale and someone who can, by proper negotiation do a deal with ACL and get us back to where we belong.
Excellent bring on the JR!

Unfortunately it wont be that simple, the word appeal will feature heavily.

Also I think if a judge does come down on SISU's side I do not think they will award compo . They can refuse if the feel the complainant contributed in anyway to the situation they find themselves in.

I believe its very difficult to appeal a JR and its not a ruling of compensation but the findings may allow the owners to commence significant litigation action against the council if its deemed they have acted unlawfully.

 

[dongonzalos]

I believe its very difficult to appeal a JR and its not a ruling of compensation but the findings may allow the owners to commence significant litigation action against the council if its deemed they have acted unlawfully.

So the quashing order is most likely what they will try and obtain.

If they do surely the plan is still to force ACL out of business's and pick it up cheap.

Presumedly if the decision is revered SISU will wait until ACL are struggling.

However maybe a judge will say you are nothing to do with the Ricoh now so there is no gain from a quashing order.

 

[Paxman II]

There is nothing to stop ACL being funded by anyone else or indeed bought by anyone else so SISU would be taking a huge risk in assuming they would end up with the Ricoh?
I would not discount the fact they may well build a stadium and that would leave C C Council and ACL with no suitable tenant for the Ricoh and eventually a white elephant, trying to survive on a few concerts and exhibitions etc etc. It just won't survive without an anchor tenant and exposure a major football club brings.
I still believe ACL and the council have an opportunity now to try and at least make a deal and swallow some pride. Ask for a decent amount for the Ricoh and get the hell out of it. How much? How much would SISU be investing into a new stadium?
There is still a deal somewhere.

 

[Como]

Any money going into a new stadium could not be described as an investment. The Club would need to be able to pay a rent not that far off its current turnover.

General view that I agree with is that there is no new stadium.

 

[The Gentleman]

There is nothing to stop ACL being funded by anyone else or indeed bought by anyone else so SISU would be taking a huge risk in assuming they would end up with the Ricoh?
I would not discount the fact they may well build a stadium and that would leave C C Council and ACL with no suitable tenant for the Ricoh and eventually a white elephant, trying to survive on a few concerts and exhibitions etc etc. It just won't survive without an anchor tenant and exposure a major football club brings.
I still believe ACL and the council have an opportunity now to try and at least make a deal and swallow some pride. Ask for a decent amount for the Ricoh and get the hell out of it. How much? How much would SISU be investing into a new stadium?
There is still a deal somewhere.

I know, they could make an offer of less rent than the club currently play at Sixfields and when there sit down for real discussions on the sale, hang on a minute..................

There is no indication that Sisu would pay market rate (which ACL have to get for it) because if they would pay it, why the hell haven't they at least got a valuation or made an offer and instead continue to make massive loses in Northampton?

 

[shmmeee]

There is nothing to stop ACL being funded by anyone else or indeed bought by anyone else so SISU would be taking a huge risk in assuming they would end up with the Ricoh?
I would not discount the fact they may well build a stadium and that would leave C C Council and ACL with no suitable tenant for the Ricoh and eventually a white elephant, trying to survive on a few concerts and exhibitions etc etc. It just won't survive without an anchor tenant and exposure a major football club brings.
I still believe ACL and the council have an opportunity now to try and at least make a deal and swallow some pride. Ask for a decent amount for the Ricoh and get the hell out of it. How much? How much would SISU be investing into a new stadium?
There is still a deal somewhere.

You buy into the Sisu story that ACL is in trouble without the club. As G said at the top of the thread, we won't know for sure for a few years, but all signs suggest it's doing OK. I think that's a key flaw in your thinking (and Sisu's).

People talk about "a few exhibitions" but one of those makes far more money than a L1 football match. And I expect when this is finally sorted one way or another, if CCFC aren't there another anchor tenant will be.

 

[Spionkop]

Paxman, you seem totally unaware or unwilling to see all the deals the Council have put in front of those bastards Sisu.
Swallow some pride, I can't believe you typed those words. Incredible.

 

[Jack Griffin]

100% speculation till the JR, but Grendel is right (cough), it is points of law that count, it isn't anything to do with fairness, if there was unlawful behaviour then action can be taken, but till the Judge rules on the case we just have 2 sides with opposing arguments & no conclusion.

Paxman reckons a deal could be made, that is true, but personally I do not trust SISU with the stadium, surely the result of them getting it is they mitigate their losses against its value & the club ends up languishing in division 3 or 4 paying off the remaining debt for a decade or more. It won't in the end do the club any good. I don't give a stuff about the fortunes of Joy Seppala, Tim Fisher and their investors, they ran the risks & they lost, I don't want them bleeding the club dry for year on year to repair the damage to their own finances their mismanagement has caused.

 

[torchomatic]

To me, I hope that if someone on either side has done something illegal then they are pulled up for it and punished, regardless of whether that is SISU, ACL or CCC. I don't care who "wins" and long as the fans ultimately do and we are back where we belong. The Ricoh.

Apart from you hoping that SISU wins a litigation against the council I would agree with all of that. I sincerely hope that they do give in once their current attempt to litigate fails. This clears the ground for someone else to give it a shot without the Richardson debt legacy.

 

[Sky Blue Kid]

@ Genduffy...The first post you've ever made that I, totally 100% agree with.

 

[lewys33]

First time Grendel has posted his full thoughts on happenings?

100% agree in all fairness. As much as I am not fond of SISU, I seriously do think liquidation as a result of losing the JR is a possibility. So them winning the JR may be the only way this club survives.

 

[The Prefect]

Great thread.

I do think that there's an option that hasn't been mentioned. I'm not sure the JR process will complete in 2014...

The first judge found in favour of CCC - I think the crux was that they were protecting their own investment and it was felt that justified their action. The judge gave leave for SISU to appeal (or SISU won an appeal hearing - I don't remember) and we are where we are... Having given SISU the right to appeal I don't see the Court refusing CCC the right to appeal if they lose. After all, one court found in their favour so it's a close call.

If SISU win I am sure CCC will appeal and drag things out for another 8 months or so. I would do the same. If SISU lose it might be the end of the JR but the rantings of ML and TF indicate to me that they have another case ready to roll - after all, JS was supposed to have threatened to tie ACL (or CCC) up in endless litigation. You don't play your cards together when you can drop them down one-by-one.

If SISU lose there's more litigation on the way. SISU are in such a mess with the club that they may as well waste a few hundred grand on spurious legal cases in order to try and deflect thoughts away from the failing club.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

100% speculation till the JR, but Grendel is right (cough), it is points of law that count, it isn't anything to do with fairness, if there was unlawful behaviour then action can be taken, but till the Judge rules on the case we just have 2 sides with opposing arguments & no conclusion.

Paxman reckons a deal could be made, that is true, but personally I do not trust SISU with the stadium, surely the result of them getting it is they mitigate their losses against its value & the club ends up languishing in division 3 or 4 paying off the remaining debt for a decade or more. It won't in the end do the club any good. I don't give a stuff about the fortunes of Joy Seppala, Tim Fisher and their investors, they ran the risks & they lost, I don't want them bleeding the club dry for year on year to repair the damage to their own finances their mismanagement has caused.

I would expect the club to be promptly sold if SISU got their hands on it. They can then sell the club and the ground as a package to whoever wants it and recoup far more money than they're ever likely to get out of it in its present state.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

You buy into the Sisu story that ACL is in trouble without the club. As G said at the top of the thread, we won't know for sure for a few years, but all signs suggest it's doing OK. I think that's a key flaw in your thinking (and Sisu's).

People talk about "a few exhibitions" but one of those makes far more money than a L1 football match. And I expect when this is finally sorted one way or another, if CCFC aren't there another anchor tenant will be.

I've said a few times that SISU are gambling on the ability of the business to manage without the club. If after a few years all seems rosy then they will a) have to build a new stadium, b) go begging to be allowed back in or c) admit defeat and sell/wind-up.

 

[Grendel]

Great thread.

I do think that there's an option that hasn't been mentioned. I'm not sure the JR process will complete in 2014...

The first judge found in favour of CCC - I think the crux was that they were protecting their own investment and it was felt that justified their action. The judge gave leave for SISU to appeal (or SISU won an appeal hearing - I don't remember) and we are where we are... Having given SISU the right to appeal I don't see the Court refusing CCC the right to appeal if they lose. After all, one court found in their favour so it's a close call.

If SISU win I am sure CCC will appeal and drag things out for another 8 months or so. I would do the same. If SISU lose it might be the end of the JR but the rantings of ML and TF indicate to me that they have another case ready to roll - after all, JS was supposed to have threatened to tie ACL (or CCC) up in endless litigation. You don't play your cards together when you can drop them down one-by-one.

If SISU lose there's more litigation on the way. SISU are in such a mess with the club that they may as well waste a few hundred grand on spurious legal cases in order to try and deflect thoughts away from the failing club.

There may be other strategies if they fail but one of these would not be going back to the Ricoh as a tenant. This would then put time pressures on them as they would eventually have to show a new ground is being developed.

If ACL lost then they would have a problem. An appeal if allowed would be a lengthy process. Its difficult to operate a business if this goes against you as long term their is uncertainty. If sisu win I assume some form of damages will be claimed which again will be a lengthy process. So I can see one more season at Northampton while an ultimate conclusion is drawn.

Sisu can play a waiting game up to a point but they have to show some credibility with the claim they are building a stadium. This would be difficult if, as we suspect, they have no interest in perusing this at all.

 

[Godiva]

I do think though the shocking reality of sisu are defeated is something many on here have never seriously considered.

Well someone have over the past month or so tried to introduce the idea that Otium may take over in the event sisu loses the JR.

Otium hold security in all assets own by the club and almost all debts are owed to Otium. Otium have also secured some shares in the club.
Remember that sisu do not own the club or have any shares and is not the owner of the original funds. But sisu may (we don't know) actually own - or part own - Otium.

Losing the JR could therefor see sisu take over the club from the original funds.

My personal belief is that even if sisu loses the JR the club will continue. I don't think there will be any administration or liquidation process involving Otium - the club, but something major could happen to SBS&L.

 

[Godiva]

I do think though the shocking reality of sisu are defeated is something many on here have never seriously considered.

Well someone have over the past month or so tried to introduce the idea that Otium may take over in the event sisu loses the JR.

Otium hold security in all assets own by the club and almost all debts are owed to Otium. Otium have also secured some shares in the club.
Remember that sisu do not own the club or have any shares and is not the owner of the original funds. But sisu may (we don't know) actually own - or part own - Otium.

Losing the JR could therefor see sisu take over the club from the original funds.

My personal belief is that even if sisu loses the JR the club will continue. I don't think there will be any administration or liquidation process involving Otium - the club, but something major could happen to SBS&L.

 

[Godiva]

Double post

 

[Godiva]

I do think though the shocking reality of sisu are defeated is something many on here have never seriously considered.

Well someone have over the past month or so tried to introduce the idea that ARVO may take over in the event sisu loses the JR.

ARVO hold security in all assets owned by the club and almost all debts are owed to ARVO. ARVO have also secured some shares in the club.
Remember that sisu do not own the club or have any shares and is not the owner of the original funds. But sisu may (we don't know) actually own - or part own - ARVO.

Losing the JR could therefor see sisu take over the club from the original funds - if they own/part own ARVO.

My personal belief is that even if sisu loses the JR the club will continue. I don't think there will be any administration or liquidation process involving Otium - the club, but something major could happen to SBS&L.

 

[Lorksalordy]

And while all this plays out all us plebs can do is speculate amongst ourselves on possible scenarios whilst being fed spin filled, fact free tosh from all sides. A clear and unequivocal statement of intent from any side would go a long way in my opinion but there has effectively been nothing of consequence announced by anyone since the move out of The Ricoh.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

To me, I hope that if someone on either side has done something illegal then they are pulled up for it and punished, regardless of whether that is SISU, ACL or CCC. I don't care who "wins" and long as the fans ultimately do and we are back where we belong. The Ricoh.

Can't disagree with this.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

Well someone have over the past month or so tried to introduce the idea that ARVO may take over in the event sisu loses the JR.

ARVO hold security in all assets owned by the club and almost all debts are owed to ARVO. ARVO have also secured some shares in the club.
Remember that sisu do not own the club or have any shares and is not the owner of the original funds. But sisu may (we don't know) actually own - or part own - ARVO.

Losing the JR could therefor see sisu take over the club from the original funds - if they own/part own ARVO.

My personal belief is that even if sisu loses the JR the club will continue. I don't think there will be any administration or liquidation process involving Otium - the club, but something major could happen to SBS&L.

ARVO is a SISU owned fund. It served as a mechanism for helping to manipulate last year's administration process and will do so again if needs be.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Double post

You can delete your own posts!

 

[orig skyblue87]

The Football League demanded answers a few weeks ago into the ongoings at the club, CCFC responded with a nothing statement.

Im hoping that once the JR process is decided that the football league give SISU a deadline regarding the new stadium or face severe consequences.

The JR had nothing to do with them sanctioning Otium with golden share or letting them play in Northampton, and almost a season on nothings changed

 

[ecky]

Are sisu still sueing the charity Higgs trust or has that been settled?
I also thought sisu had to pay ACL the rent they owed?

 

[Noggin]

The Football League demanded answers a few weeks ago into the ongoings at the club, CCFC responded with a nothing statement.

Im hoping that once the JR process is decided that the football league give SISU a deadline regarding the new stadium or face severe consequences.

The JR had nothing to do with them sanctioning Otium with golden share or letting them play in Northampton, and almost a season on nothings changed

I don't think we want the football league to get involved now though really, seems to me at this point any penaltys imposed would hurt the club and not sisu. The football league had their chance to help us and instead helped sisu.

 

[The Gentleman]

The Football League demanded answers a few weeks ago into the ongoings at the club, CCFC responded with a nothing statement.

Im hoping that once the JR process is decided that the football league give SISU a deadline regarding the new stadium or face severe consequences.

The JR had nothing to do with them sanctioning Otium with golden share or letting them play in Northampton, and almost a season on nothings changed

To be honest, this is a very good chance to see exactly how strong the FL can be. They said they needed answers by the end of the season April/May. With the JR not until June they can demand answers from Otium about the stadium without the threat of legal action because these are the terms they set out and Otium agreed to. They can and should also force Sisu/Otium's hand with regard to the outstanding debt to ACL because again it was linked in with the move being sanctioned. With all the battering the FL have endured this season, surely this is an opportunity to show they are significant and have authority, I'm not sure it will happen but they have to do something, don't they?

 

[orig skyblue87]

I don't think we want the football league to get involved now though really, seems to me at this point any penaltys imposed would hurt the club and not sisu. The football league had their chance to help us and instead helped sisu.

My problem with the whole thing is they said they regrettably awarded the GS to Otium on the eve of the season as if they hadnt there would have been no CCFC.

Thats a fair comment as, legally the admin process was concluded correctly. But now SISU have not acted on any of the agreed conditions could the FL withdraw the GS from them as punishment until they act on there promises.

 

[orig skyblue87]

To be honest, this is a very good chance to see exactly how strong the FL can be. They said they needed answers by the end of the season April/May. With the JR not until June they can demand answers from Otium about the stadium without the threat of legal action because these are the terms they set out and Otium agreed to. They can and should also force Sisu/Otium's hand with regard to the outstanding debt to ACL because again it was linked in with the move being sanctioned. With all the battering the FL have endured this season, surely this is an opportunity to show they are significant and have authority, I'm not sure it will happen but they have to do something, don't they?

I think ML said that the debt would be paid once the company liquidation process was completed. As for the football league my point previously regarding taking the GS from them.

 

[Noggin]

My problem with the whole thing is they said they regrettably awarded the GS to Otium on the eve of the season as if they hadnt there would have been no CCFC.

Thats a fair comment as, legally the admin process was concluded correctly. But now SISU have not acted on any of the agreed conditions could the FL withdraw the GS from them as punishment until they act on there promises.

At that point the football league probably did need to grant the share, a few weeks earlier though there were lots of ways to end up with a happy outcome. They could have told the administrator that the golden share could only be sold to someone who has an agreement in place to play in Coventry for the next 10 years. The administrator could then not have sold it to Otium.

I don't see though that the football league withdrawing the share from otium now is a good thing, surely that just ends the club? Of course the football league could take the share back and then offer it for sale but that is probably going to get them sued and it seems they have no appetite for standing up to sisu and their lawyers.

 

[orig skyblue87]

At that point the football league probably did need to grant the share, a few weeks earlier though there were lots of ways to end up with a happy outcome. They could have told the administrator that the golden share could only be sold to someone who has an agreement in place to play in Coventry for the next 10 years. The administrator could then not have sold it to Otium



I don't see though that the football league withdrawing the share from otium now is a good thing, surely that just ends the club? Of course the football league could take the share back and then offer it for sale but that is probably going to get them sued and it seems they have no appetite for standing up to sisu and their lawyers.

Agree totally with that point. Im trying to remember the timescale of them few weeks leading upto August, and most likely the admin was held up purely for this reason.



Of course i wouldnt want to see the end of the club but the way its heading there looks likely there will be an abrupt end if things carry on. Taking the GS of them and then offering it for sale would be fantastic news if legally could be done.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

At that point the football league probably did need to grant the share, a few weeks earlier though there were lots of ways to end up with a happy outcome. They could have told the administrator that the golden share could only be sold to someone who has an agreement in place to play in Coventry for the next 10 years. The administrator could then not have sold it to Otium.

I don't see though that the football league withdrawing the share from otium now is a good thing, surely that just ends the club? Of course the football league could take the share back and then offer it for sale but that is probably going to get them sued and it seems they have no appetite for standing up to sisu and their lawyers.

They pulled out all the stops to make sure Portsmouth were sold to the supporters' trust and nobody else. They refused to consider bids from those attached to the previous regime and put pressure on the administrator to this effect. No such help was forthcoming to some random team from the West Midlands though.