Did sisu save ACL? (21 Viewers)

[Godiva]

If this forum had a dis-like button, I am sure this post would set a new record.
But as the Trust hold an open meeting tomorrow I thought I would give the meeting something different to talk about (or not).

I am sure most of you who have trawled through the court transcript have already read the interesting e-mails and either decided that CCC politicians and officers have some explaining to do, and I am sure they will be given every opportunity during the JR.

So this is not another post from me pointing at CCC saying 'they're just as bad, or more, than sisu.
This is about how fragile ACL were when the club was taken over.


From the transcript - Sisu barrister(Q) questioning PWKH(A):

Q. Let's see if we can agree on the
second point, that ACL couldn't afford the Yorkshire Bank loan unless the football club kept paying the rent; would you agree with that?
A. Certainly the sudden cessation of payment from the football club was inevitably going to lead to cash flow
difficulties for ACL.


PWKH is saying that the rent strike would put ACL under considerably pressure. And this is just before the rent strike was initiated. At a point where everyone expected the whole transaction of sisu buying out the Yorkshire Bank loan plus acquiring Higgs shares within a few month. AND during the rent strike ACL would be able to draw on the Escrow account plus receive 10K per game.

Well, if that was the case then surely the cash situation must have been very, very difficult at that time in Spring of 2012.

But what if the club hadn't been bought by sisu? Or bought by somebody insisting on a reduced rent from day one?
Wouldn't that have made it more or less impossible for ACL to survive?

Isn't it somehow possible, that when sisu took over the club on an unchanged rent contract with ACL they not only saved the club, but in fact also saved ACL?

 

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[Samo]

If this forum had a dis-like button, I am sure this post would set a new record.
But as the Trust hold an open meeting tomorrow I thought I would give the meeting something different to talk about (or not).

I am sure most of you who have trawled through the court transcript have already read the interesting e-mails and either decided that CCC politicians and officers have some explaining to do, and I am sure they will be given every opportunity during the JR.

So this is not another post from me pointing at CCC saying 'they're just as bad, or more, than sisu.
This is about how fragile ACL were when the club was taken over.


From the transcript - Sisu barrister(Q) questioning PWKH(A):

Q. Let's see if we can agree on the
second point, that ACL couldn't afford the Yorkshire Bank loan unless the football club kept paying the rent; would you agree with that?
A. Certainly the sudden cessation of payment from the football club was inevitably going to lead to cash flow
difficulties for ACL.


PWKH is saying that the rent strike would put ACL under considerably pressure. And this is just before the rent strike was initiated. At a point where everyone expected the whole transaction of sisu buying out the Yorkshire Bank loan plus acquiring Higgs shares within a few month. AND during the rent strike ACL would be able to draw on the Escrow account plus receive 10K per game.

Well, if that was the case then surely the cash situation must have been very, very difficult at that time in Spring of 2012.

But what if the club hadn't been bought by sisu? Or bought by somebody insisting on a reduced rent from day one?
Wouldn't that have made it more or less impossible for ACL to survive?

Isn't it somehow possible, that when sisu took over the club on an unchanged rent contract with ACL they not only saved the club, but in fact also saved ACL?

There may be something in what you say but I think from a business point of view the word 'sudden' is significant.

 

[Nick]

Was it that "sudden"? It came across as if it had been discussed in the past.

 

[Godiva]

There may be something in what you say but I think from a business point of view the word 'sudden' is significant.

Yes - but prior to that ACL would have lost out on something like £4m in total. Could they have survived that?

 

[Godiva]

There may be something in what you say but I think from a business point of view the word 'sudden' is significant.

And - while you say 'sudden' you forget the 6 month worth of Escrow.

 

[Samo]

Yes - but prior to that ACL would have lost out on something like £4m in total. Could they have survived that?

It is hard to see how, but then it's hard to see how they can survive now.

 

[Samo]

And - while you say 'sudden' you forget the 6 month worth of Escrow.

Can't argue with that.

 

[Jack Griffin]

This argument forgets that the original Arena concept included support from CCFC as part owners, they let all the other stakeholders down badly.
In the end AEHC stepped in, (grossly over) paying £6.5M for the half share owed by CCFC, money that was used to pay off some of CCFC's debts.

It was AEHC that saved the Arena and ACL, the club is a victim of its own inability to manage itself sensibly.
They should have negotiated a buy back clause as a condition of paying rent (and so should have SISU), that is how badly they've been managed.

 

[Godiva]

This argument forgets that the original Arena concept included support from CCFC as part owners, they let all the other stakeholders down badly.
In the end AEHC stepped in, (grossly over) paying £6.5M for the half share owed by CCFC, money that was used to pay off some of CCFC's debts.

It was AEHC that saved the Arena and ACL, the club is a victim of its own inability to manage itself sensibly.

Uhm - how long into sisu's reign was that?

 

[skybluetony176]

You're asking the wrong question Godiva (assuming you're a CCFF fan and not a ACL fan).

The only company that sisu were tasked with saving was CCFC. From where they started how are they doing?

Failing miserably I would say. And that is all the Trust need to be concerned about, not a history of ACL.

 

[Grendel]

You're asking the wrong question Godiva (assuming you're a CCFF fan and not a ACL fan).

The only company that sisu were tasked with saving was CCFC. From where they started how are they doing?

Failing miserably I would say. And that is all the Trust need to be concerned about, not a history of ACL.

But on this forum many posters seem far more concerned about ACL so its perfectly valid.

 

[italiahorse]

A little bit obvious to me, but fortunately football was not the only income.

If you give a long lease of 50 years surely your business plan could rely on that income as it is fairly secure.
The first few years would be marginal and a company knowledgable in how to stress a company could take advantage.
This is what has happened, so the blame is clear.

In balance the company with the stadium should be sympathetic to its clients particularly if one of them has overstretched themselves.

 

[skybluetony176]

But on this forum many posters seem far more concerned about ACL so its perfectly valid.

You mean like you with their accounts. I was concerned only with the company's that make up the club. You rang your "accountant" so he could help you start a thread on ACL's. Did you even post on the threads about the clubs shocking accounts?

 

[italiahorse]

But on this forum many posters seem far more concerned about ACL so its perfectly valid.

Someone needs to own/run the stadium.
It will never be CCFC so the question to you is .....

... would you prefer the stadium to owned and run by Sisu or CCC/Higgs ?

 

[italiahorse]

You mean like you with their accounts. I was concerned only with the company's that make up the club. You rang your "accountant" so he could help you start a thread on ACL's. Did you even post on the threads about the clubs shocking accounts?

He's a WUM so its not in his nature.

 

[Grendel]

Someone needs to own/run the stadium.
It will never be CCFC so the question to you is .....

... would you prefer the stadium to owned and run by Sisu or CCC/Higgs ?

The owners if the club every time.

 

[italiahorse]

The owners if the club every time.

Really ?

 

[Grendel]

He's a WUM so its not in his nature.

Sorry? How many other football clubs forums would anyone care about a management company. They wouldn't want it to have a fair deal they'd want it to go bust and get it as cheaply as possible. As I do.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Grendel. Js has no interest in the football club!!!!!!!

 

[coop]

Are you having a laugh sisu have fucked this club up

 

[italiahorse]

Sorry? How many other football clubs forums would anyone care about a management company. They wouldn't want it to have a fair deal they'd want it to go bust and get it as cheaply as possible. As I do.

To be honest I would want a management company based in my town to run it rather than some mysterious offshore company that has proven to be incompetent.

The fact that it is a council as well gives me a feeling of security and I am willing to put up with its inefficiencies in the hope that any future profits will go into the public purse.

 

[Florence1898]

SISU's plan derived by Fisher in December 2011, and then activated in March 2012 when ARVO registered 2 Debentures at Company's House against the Football Club, was the beginning of the end for Coventry City. The ACL Management had insight into Fisher and Seppala's plan, and scuppered it. Certain players on the ACL Board were a little smarter than SISU thought.

 

[skybluetony176]

Sorry? How many other football clubs forums would anyone care about a management company. They wouldn't want it to have a fair deal they'd want it to go bust and get it as cheaply as possible. As I do.

I take your point. If ACL were owned by a hedge fund I would be right there with you. But it isn't, it's owned by a local children's charity and the local tax payer. The fact that you'd like to see them out of pocket says more about you than anyone else.

You were trying to big yourself up the other night as someone who does a lot for charity. I doubt that to be true of anyone with the mindset you have just demonstrated.

 

[Godiva]

SISU's plan derived by Fisher in December 2011, and then activated in March 2012 when ARVO registered 2 Debentures at Company's House against the Football Club, was the beginning of the end for Coventry City. The ACL Management had insight into Fisher and Seppala's plan, and scuppered it. Certain players on the ACL Board were a little smarter than SISU thought.

And back in 2007? Did sisu save ACL?

 

[italiahorse]

SISU's plan derived by Fisher in December 2011, and then activated in March 2012 when ARVO registered 2 Debentures at Company's House against the Football Club, was the beginning of the end for Coventry City. The ACL Management had insight into Fisher and Seppala's plan, and scuppered it. Certain players on the ACL Board were a little smarter than SISU thought.

I've tried to understand this but although I suspect something is happening, that leaves the debt in the club regardless, I have not been clever enough to work it out.

 

[Grendel]

Grendel. Js has no interest in the football club!!!!!!!

You know this because old iron lung told you?

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Ochums razor

 

[skybluetony176]

To be honest I would want a management company based in my town to run it rather than some mysterious offshore company that has proven to be incompetent.

The fact that it is a council as well gives me a feeling of security and I am willing to put up with its inefficiencies in the hope that any future profits will go into the public purse.

Now you're just talking nonsense italia. What do you think could possibly happen. The club liquidated and the ricoh a derelict sight having been sold to the highest bidder and meanwhile the hedge fund rides off into the Cayman Island sunset having milked it for every penny for their non dom investors. HELP!!!!

;-)

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

Only interested in the Ricoh arena complex for a cheap amount then everything falls into place

 

[skybluetony176]

You know this because old iron lung told you?

I think we know this because she threatened to pull the plug if she didn't get the ricoh.

Pretty sure that got mentioned in court last week. You probably missed it, I think it came out while the court case thread was still irrelevant.

 

[italiahorse]

You know this because old iron lung told you?

Bigoted to the end ............... definitely a WUM and your only claim to fame is that you have kept this board going.

 

[Florence1898]

Sadly the Club are completely shot. Although their losses will be smaller next financial year as the wage bill is now very small, the agency fees between SISU entities are so large, as are the interest charges, that the club has no chance. With no income and expensive management, eg Fisher and Waggot alone are creaming £350k pa, which ironically would pay the rent for the Ricoh. Bottom line being the club will never return to Cov, Joy will make sure of that, everyone loses.

 

[M&B Stand]

To be honest I would want a management company based in my town to run it rather than some mysterious offshore company that has proven to be incompetent.

The fact that it is a council as well gives me a feeling of security and I am willing to put up with its inefficiencies in the hope that any future profits will go into the public purse.

I'm sure any prospective new owners will take note.

 

[Sky Blue Pete]

There is a potential deal to be done but js wants the freehold for virtually zero and that can't happen. Trust need to negotiate with council as the people of Coventry own the complex financially. This means the population could ask CCc to trust the complex to the club in some way. I repeat js has no interest in football none at all. We need to call ml and tf on this not allow them to run rings round us, osb has it right

 

[Grendel]

There is a potential deal to be done but js wants the freehold for virtually zero and that can't happen. Trust need to negotiate with council as the people of Coventry own the complex financially. This means the population could ask CCc to trust the complex to the club in some way. I repeat js has no interest in football none at all. We need to call ml and tf on this not allow them to run rings round us, osb has it right

More nonsense. No evidence whatsoever suggests anyone wants something on the cheap. The council believe the first bid for ACL was overvalued. How do you explain that?

As for no interest in football so what? Elliot had interest in football as did Richardson and mcginnity and they well and truly fucked us up.