Bad reading for a couple of you (12 Viewers)

[Cheshire Sky Blue]

And be able to offer a ridiculously low rent
That could keep the football club alive, ACL alive and the football club at Coventry

It's not clear if any offer of a lower rent was given to SISU. If it was then its hard to see why SISU turned it down other than to create a stick to use at a later date. I agree that the better offer should have been made and offered sooner and of course it would have been better for the club and the fans.

 

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[duffer]

I'd have thought as a reporter that Simon Gilbert would have actually read the court documents and understood them before putting out an article?



The 2 million pounds deal was cash, and was becuase Higgs wanted a deal outside the scope of the original agreement which involved more risk to Sisu.

The original offer would have still stood I think if stuck to the original terms.

The problem is that the terms of the original offer, £1.5m up front and £4m to follow over ten years, weren't acceptable (largely I think because of a lack of security). SISU never addressed that. That's in those original documents too.

In retrospect, given how SISU seemed to be able transfer assets around so that they could break the lease and escape a large proportion of their debts with CCFC Ltd, I think avoiding the 'buy now, pay later' scenario looks like a wise move by the Higgs trust!

 

[dongonzalos]

Wow. Five words I never thought I'd see on here...

He wasn't really fair in his reporting

He decided the only solution was for the Ricoh to be sold to SISU. From that point in he used his position in the Telegraph to campaign for this despite the fact many of his readers did not agree.
He also was very hostile when people provided feedback for his work.
He also dug up very little for an ' investigative journalist'

 

[wingy]

Do you know if, when then exclusivity deal with Sisu ended in order to be available to speak to any other interested parties, there were any serious interested parties to speak to, and were they negotiated with?

Maybe something Simon could look at ,Mr Majid was mentioned in the case.

 

[torchomatic]

It would have saved your poor little fingers to just type "I didn't agree with him".

He wasn't really fair in his reporting

He decided the only solution was for the Ricoh to be sold to SISU. From that point in he used his position in the Telegraph to campaign for this despite the fact many of his readers did not agree.
He also was very hostile when people provided feedback for his work.
He also dug up very little for an ' investigative journalist'

 

[wingy]

Does that not mean there was a conflict of interest though for CBRE?

I'd have said so.

 

[shmmeee]

Rubbish. It's for the market to decide. Ultimately do you want a better deal for the stadium management company or the football club. As much as I hate the owners I want a viable club, surely a new owner would then be easier to find.

It is for the market to decide, and in a monopoly the monopoly power gets to pick whatever price they want. Welcome to Capitalism.

 

[torchomatic]

Be careful there. Disagreeing with OSB58 could leave you on very shaky ground!

I'd have said so.

 

[stupot07]

CCFC not paying ANY rent devalued it.

That means you have a unstable bad anchor tenant. It is bound to devalue it

They paid £500k out of the escrow

It also saved ACL £5m, as they owed £19m loan but ccc bought it for £14m.

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[shmmeee]

Au contraire - how do you think rents are calculated in any commercial property?

Not by taking an average of the country.

Or are you suggesting that a firm in central London pays the same as a firm in the Outer Hebrides?

Whether either side likes it or not, the value of something is whatever price the seller and buyer will accept. If no deal then it's technically priceless I guess.

 

[wingy]

The problem is that the terms of the original offer, £1.5m up front and £4m to follow over ten years, weren't acceptable (largely I think because of a lack of security). SISU never addressed that. That's in those original documents too.

In retrospect, given how SISU seemed to be able transfer assets around so that they could break the lease and escape a large proportion of their debts with CCFC Ltd, I think avoiding the 'buy now, pay later' scenario looks like a wise move by the Higgs trust!

If by doing the deal the Clubs debt becomes connected to ACL ,would that keep the shares In ACL low,it was some form of Share In ACL that SISU were offering to Higgs was'nt It .

 

[dongonzalos]

Maybe something Simon could look at ,Mr Majid was mentioned in the case.

Majid alsadi maybe?

 

[shmmeee]

They paid £500k out of the escrow


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And they showed every intention of breaking the 40-odd years left on the lease, reducing the value of ACL's assets by tens of millions.

 

[dongonzalos]

They paid £500k out of the escrow


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No I mean when you are valuing a business if the anchor remnant has ran their business so poorly it gets relegated. Then they announce a rent strike. It is hardly not going to impact on the value of your business as a landlord

 

[stupot07]

And they showed every intention of breaking the 40-odd years left on the lease, reducing the value of ACL's assets by tens of millions.

10's of millions?


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[shmmeee]

It would have saved your poor little fingers to just type "I didn't agree with him".

What condescending crap (and I should know something about condescending crap).

There was a mountain of evidence for Reid's unprofessionalism and bias, nothing to do with who agrees with what.

 

[shmmeee]

10's of millions?


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Well, if you had a 40 year lease at £1.3m/year, yeah.

 

[torchomatic]

Not at all. As soon as he wrote "what about ACL..." The knives were out and no matter what he said he was attacked for it. The same will happen to Simon if he steps out of line.

What condescending crap (and I should know something about condescending crap).

There was a mountain of evidence for Reid's unprofessionalism and bias, nothing to do with who agrees with what.

 

[stupot07]

No I mean when you are valuing a business if the anchor remnant has ran their business so poorly it gets relegated. Then they announce a rent strike. It is hardly not going to impact on the value of your business as a landlord

Sisu have run the club badly, but a club who's revenue as limited as us was always on the road to relegation. I know I keep banging on about this, but relegation season 9 clubs with lower attendances, yet we were in the bottom 3-4 turnovers in the league. The 3 promoted teams with wage bills circa x3 our entire turnover.


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[wingy]

If by doing the deal the Clubs debt becomes connected to ACL ,would that keep the shares In ACL low,it was some form of Share In ACL that SISU were offering to Higgs was'nt It .

Thinking more about It ,would PWC advise that ACL would be worth more or less If the clubs debt transferred into ACL as a result of the deal ,might be a deal breaker If less or negligable.

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I still feel if SISU really wanted this trial to go ahead. Counter suing for 290 k was not the way to go about it.
That was a hammer to try and get the Higgs charity to withdraw.
If the trial was a fishing expedition that would just contest it surely or counter due for a non astronomical amout.

Genuine question.....Once the counter claim had gone in could Higgs withdraw? If they couldn't then the counter claim guaranteed that the case went ahead.

Also I got the impression from comments made by the Higgs QC that the case wouldn't have been heard in such a high court if it were not for the counter claim. Anyone know if this is right?

 

[wingy]

Sisu have run the club badly, but a club who's revenue as limited as us was always on the road to relegation. I know I keep banging on about this, but relegation season 9 clubs with lower attendances, yet we were in the bottom 3-4 turnovers in the league. The 3 promoted teams with wage bills circa x3 our entire turnover.


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Don't suppose you could evaluate what their St prices were could you Stu ,we were very cheap,especially when you see what we've been paying for away games this season.

 

[dongonzalos]

Not at all. As soon as he wrote "what about ACL..." The knives were out and no matter what he said he was attacked for it. The same will happen to Simon if he steps out of line.

As long as he evidences it. As oppose to just forming an opinion then ramming it down everyone's throat as there is no other option. Simon will be alright.

 

[wingy]

I''d advise people read LR's article again ,not the JS interview ,the other one .

I left It about 6-8 weeks before reading It and the only point i found contentious was his view we should all surrender.

 

[torchomatic]

And we wouldn't have anyone ramming their views and opinion down anyone throat on here, would we?

As long as he evidences it. As oppose to just forming an opinion then ramming it down everyone's throat as there is no other option. Simon will be alright.

 

[dongonzalos]

And we wouldn't have anyone ramming their views and opinion down anyone throat on here, would we?

We are not the local journalist

 

[dongonzalos]

I''d advise people read LR's article again ,not the JS interview ,the other one .

I left It about 6-8 weeks before reading It and the only point i found contentious was his view we should all surrender.

Unfortunately from that point onwards he pushed that view and all his subsequent reporting was an attempt at a justification of that view

 

[oldskyblue58]

Question

Just how much capital value does a club dropping divisions, crowds on a downward curve, owners reluctant to keep financing actually, massively in debt bring?

The worth to ACL was cashflow but anyone looking at the projections in terms of valuing the Ricoh would have to factor in that the cashflow was "fragile" and discount that cashflow. Can that cashflow be made up or saved in other ways? Surely given the financials of the club any valuer would have to heavily discount the covenant of the anchor tenant?

Is the worth of CCFC to ACL/Ricoh much less than the worth of ACL/Ricoh to CCFC. Are the two things in balance? if not .............

 

[Godiva]

Thinking more about It ,would PWC advise that ACL would be worth more or less If the clubs debt transferred into ACL as a result of the deal ,might be a deal breaker If less or negligable.

The ccfc assets/liabilities would never be transferred to ACL.
It wouldn't be ACL owning part of the club (OEG) - but SBS&L owning a part of ACL (in a separate prop-co).

 

[stupot07]

Well, if you had a 40 year lease at £1.3m/year, yeah.

Hmmm interesting, when I and others have argued that perhaps breaking the 40 year £1.3m a year lease as blessing in disguise, we've been told to stop being disingenuous as lower rent offers mean that it wouldn't have been £1.3m for the next 40 years....

But anyway.

£1.3m x 40 = £52m. So yes you are right, on the flip side breaking the lease has removed £52m liabilities from ccfc...

And why a break clause was included I'll never know.


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[ccfcway]

havent we got a 100+ page thread about this already ?

 

[shmmeee]

Hmmm interesting, when I and others have argued that perhaps breaking the 40 year £1.3m a year lease as blessing in disguise, we've been told to stop being disingenuous as lower rent offers mean that it wouldn't have been £1.3m for the next 40 years....

But anyway.

£1.3m x 40 = £52m. So yes you are right, on the flip side breaking the lease has removed £52m liabilities from ccfc...

And why a break clause was included I'll never know.


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OK, £150k/year for 42 years (was that the number?) is still £6.3m, add in ancillary income over the years from having football played there and you might be up to £10m.

But you're mixing your points. The effect on ACL's value is what we're discussing, not the benefit or drawbacks to CCFC.

Trying (badly) to disassociate ACL's position from what we want as CCFC fans (as I've always said I want no rent and 100% of football revenue plus 50% of the rest).

The argument Sisu are making in the JR (and pretty much the only argument) is that CCC shouldn't have refinanced the loan because there was no threat to ACL's business.

 

[shmmeee]

havent we got a 100+ page thread about this already ?

Nick's gotta eat.

 

[stupot07]

Don't suppose you could evaluate what their St prices were could you Stu ,we were very cheap,especially when you see what we've been paying for away games this season.

I'll try and have a look to see if I can find data for the 2011/12 later for you, I suspect you're right especially considering the data from last season:

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19842397




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[Nick]

Nick's gotta eat.

Also have to pay for bandwidth unfortunately