US business man planning to launch bit to bring CCFC back to the ricoh (4 Viewers)

[sky blue john]

To be honest I wish that had been the situation back then, it would hopefully have all been sorted out by now. Maybeit would have forced ACL to at least let us compete on a level playing field and hold back on the crippling rent.

I get all the "it's all SISUs fault, they should have renegotiated", I really do. However, at the end of the day regardless of that there's no way ACL should have charged us that amount in the first place. It was always going to end in tears.

So how was the mortgage on the shortfall of the stadium costs going to be paid ?
You have to remember day one of the Ricoh opening the only income was CCFC.
Yes there should have been something in place that reduced the rent on a sliding scale once other revenue streams came on board.

 

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[Astute]

To be honest I wish that had been the situation back then, it would hopefully have all been sorted out by now. Maybeit would have forced ACL to at least let us compete on a level playing field and hold back on the crippling rent.

I get all the "it's all SISUs fault, they should have renegotiated", I really do. However, at the end of the day regardless of that there's no way ACL should have charged us that amount in the first place. It was always going to end in tears.

Most people, including myself, understand why the rent was set so high. The mortgage was much higher at first and also interest rates were much higher. The rent would have been set at about what the repayments were. We need to remember that as a new build there wasn't any income. And why should the taxpayer pay towards our football club?

Where I see ACL being wrong was not reducing the rent as the income from the arena started coming in, and also not refinancing the mortgage as interest rates dropped. Saying that we don't know if it was on a fixed rate with penalties for remortgaging.

Hardly anyone has said it is all SISU's fault. I certainly never have. They were not even with us when the Ricoh was built or when the rent was set. But what is their fault is the way they have tried to steamroll everyone to get their own way. If they had tried negotiating they will have got somewhere. Look how many excuses they have used each time a new offer was made. It went from the rent being too high to the pie money and finally to unencumbered freehold. This is their fault. We are playing in Northampton. This is their fault. The rest is debatable.

I am pro Higgs. They should get their money back. I am not pro CCC or SISU. I am not anti CCC or SISU. But I can certainly see where the present problems are coming from. The taxpayer shouldn't lose out to a hedge fund. If they want something they should pay for it.

 

[Astute]

What you you on about - the taxpayer has nothing to do with this - ACL is a private company - you seem to be not comprehending this?

Who is ACL? I suppose it is nothing to do with the taxpayer or a charity :thinking about:

 

[chiefdave]

Mark Labovitch says Coventry-born Dallas-based soccer agent Martin Kelman needs to put proposal to board

Better make sure he uses headed paper!

 

[sky blue john]

Most people, including myself, understand why the rent was set so high. The mortgage was much higher at first and also interest rates were much higher. The rent would have been set at about what the repayments were. We need to remember that as a new build there wasn't any income. And why should the taxpayer pay towards our football club?

Where I see ACL being wrong was not reducing the rent as the income from the arena started coming in, and also not refinancing the mortgage as interest rates dropped. Saying that we don't know if it was on a fixed rate with penalties for remortgaging.

Hardly anyone has said it is all SISU's fault. I certainly never have. They were not even with us when the Ricoh was built or when the rent was set. But what is their fault is the way they have tried to steamroll everyone to get their own way. If they had tried negotiating they will have got somewhere. Look how many excuses they have used each time a new offer was made. It went from the rent being too high to the pie money and finally to unencumbered freehold. This is their fault. We are playing in Northampton. This is their fault. The rest is debatable.

I am pro Higgs. They should get their money back. I am not pro CCC or SISU. I am not anti CCC or SISU. But I can certainly see where the present problems are coming from. The taxpayer shouldn't lose out to a hedge fund. If they want something they should pay for it.

Exactly what has happened its a shame a few still close their eyes & ears !
Maybe they have a political agenda for so much hatred towards the council and a charity.

 

[Grendel]

Who is ACL? I suppose it is nothing to do with the taxpayer or a charity :thinking about:

No absolutely nothing

 

[sky blue john]

What affinity have Sisu got with Coventry ?
None its just business !!!
Joy hasn't exactly embraced Coventry virtually nobody has ever seen her !
So bearing these points in mind why are some supporting Sisu's actions still ?

 

[Grendel]

What affinity have Sisu got with Coventry ?
None its just business !!!
Joy hasn't exactly embraced Coventry virtually nobody has ever seen her !
So bearing these points in mind why are some supporting Sisu's actions still ?

No one is "supporting" anything other than the club

 

[sky blue john]

No one is "supporting" anything other than the club

If that's the case you should have all the info to share from your meeting with ML ?
What is the clubs plan next season regarding return to the championship ?
How much are they going to back SP with ?
What players will be lost and who are they looking at as replacements ?

 

[Broken Hearted Sky Blue]

If that's the case you should have all the info to share from your meeting with ML ?
What is the clubs plan next season regarding return to the championship ?
How much are they going to back SP with ?
What players will be lost and who are they looking at as replacements ?

I'll tell you on Friday

 

[sky blue john]

I'll tell you on Friday

Lets hope you come back with some decent info then. Well if you come back with anything we don't already know, it will be more than Grendell. Bless him though maybe he was star struck meeting one of his business idols !!!

 

[duffer]

To be honest I wish that had been the situation back then, it would hopefully have all been sorted out by now. Maybeit would have forced ACL to at least let us compete on a level playing field and hold back on the crippling rent.

I get all the "it's all SISUs fault, they should have renegotiated", I really do. However, at the end of the day regardless of that there's no way ACL should have charged us that amount in the first place. It was always going to end in tears.

I know we've done this to death many, many times, but there was £21m needed to finish the build and that money had to come from somewhere. In essence it came from ACL, who borrowed it. The rent was set, broadly, at a level that covered that borrowing (even SISU seem to acknowledge that fact).

What other option was there?

 

[The Gentleman]

No one is "supporting" anything other than the club

No because you have openly supported actions against ACL/CCC in the past and still do, or am I wrong?

 

[WiganSkyBlue]

Mr Labovitch also said .......................

“I think it’s unfair on fans to get their hopes up when there might not be anything there.”

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-director-tells-man-7023206

Like a brand spanking new stadium somewhere in/near Coventry imp:

 

[Buster]

“I think it’s unfair on fans to get their hopes up when there might not be anything there.


Is Labovitch hinting that the fans best hope is a third party coming in ?
Other approaches in the past have been swiftly batted away . Is this a change in atitude?

 

[Jack Griffin]

“I think it’s unfair on fans to get their hopes up when there might not be anything there.


Is Labovitch hinting that the fans best hope is a third party coming in ?
Other approaches in the past have been swiftly batted away . Is this a change in atitude?

Sounds a bit like a come & buy us, we are getting desperate plea.

Timmy's mantra at the fans forums last July (the one where they got fan feedback & ignored it totally) was "the club is not for sale"...

 

[Grendel]

Lets hope you come back with some decent info then. Well if you come back with anything we don't already know, it will be more than Grendell. Bless him though maybe he was star struck meeting one of his business idols !!!

I didn't know you were there John you should have introduced yourself.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

The fact of the matter is Rob that he doesn't need to raise £3m to highlight how little financial sense playing at Northampton makes to the club. An extra 10,000 on the gate paying £15-20 a game raises at least an extra £3.5m in ticketing revenue alone yet our owners think it's better to deprive themselves of this income for the purpose of attempting to bankrupt ACL.

There is no way anybody can rationalise it through anything else other than a personal feud and oneupmanship.

That's fair enough BSB but my point was if Martin Kelman wanted to make an offer of this sort, Mr Kelman should have gone directly to the Club first.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

How much profit have ACL made from the club again Rob? If there's one thing that gets really boring its the old 'club as a cash cow' argument...

The ACL accounts are out there, and public, so where's this huge profit?

That's not the argument I was making Duffer and you are well aware of it, what I am insisting though is that the Club need all the revenues it generates to be financially sustainable, currently that can't be the case because ACL profit from those revenues, be it £1 or £1,000.

 

[duffer]

That's not the argument I was making Duffer and you are well aware of it, what I am insisting though is that the Club need all the revenues it generates to be financially sustainable, currently that can't be the case because ACL profit from those revenues, be it £1 or £1,000.

Good, so we've finally nailed down the 'cash cow' thing, that's a relief.

So, having sold the rights to those revenues, do you think that the best course of action might be to attempt (again) to negotiate for their repurchase, or should SISU just hold out at Northampton regardless of how much more it costs?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I haven't seen this mentioned on the thread, so apologies to all if I have missed anything but there was an article on the CT website regarding a response to Martin Kelman:

A Sky Blues director says an American businessman who has come up with a proposal to get the club back to Coventry should contact the board if he’s serious.Mark Labovitch, CCFC non-executive director, responded after Coventry-born Dallas-based soccer agent Martin Kelman revealed he planned to raise funds and negotiate a rent deal with Ricoh Arena operators Arena Coventry Ltd to get the club back to its former home.

A long-running rent dispute between the football club and stadium bosses has seen the club move to play ‘home’ games 35 miles away in Northampton.

Mr Labovitch said: “If Mr Kelman has a serious proposal he should really put it across to the club’s board or the club’s owner in the normal way.”

He added: “We only comment when people act in a normal, credible professional way and come and talk to the club, or in this case its owner.

“If someone isn’t going to come and contact the club’s owner directly, how can you have a discussion about anything?

“I can’t speak for the club’s owner but, as an independent director, I would always advise an owner really not to comment on anyone who hasn’t come and put his idea in person or even sent her a letter.”

Mr Labovitch also said the club had seen many approaches come and go during his time at the club.

There was a reported bid from former CCFC director Gary Hoffman in 2011 and in 2013 he was believed to be working on a bid with American property tycoon Preston Haskell IV.

Businessman Michael Byng has also previously declared he represented Chinese businessman interested in taking over the club.

Mr Kelman’s suggestion is different in that he does not want control of the club, but wants fans to raise the funds to pay the club’s rent and ensure a return to the Ricoh - with any additional revenue invested into the club.

“Since I have been on the board we have had a number of people saying they are interested in acquiring the club through whatever structure it might be and they’ve often turned out to be completely flaky,” said Mr Labovitch.

“One of the suspicious things has always been when they don’t do the normal thing which is to contact the person they want to deal with but to go straight to the newspaper. Serious people don’t do that.

“I don’t want to make any comment about Kelman because I don’t know him. All I’m saying is if he has a serious proposal for the club’s board or for the club’s owner, he ought to be making that directly.

“It’s a very serious situation and I think you ought to go about this in a very serious and professional way.

“In an industry like this, all manner of people come out of the woodwork and I think you separate them between the people that approach the club in a professional way and if there is something to discuss it might result in something that’s worth announcing to the media.

“I think it’s unfair on fans to get their hopes up when there might not be anything there.”

Read the article here: http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/coventry-city-director-tells-man-7023206

 

[Jack Griffin]

ML has rather overused the word serious

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Good, so we've finally nailed down the 'cash cow' thing, that's a relief.

So, having sold the rights to those revenues, do you think that the best course of action might be to attempt (again) to negotiate for their repurchase, or should SISU just hold out at Northampton regardless of how much more it costs?

As I have said a billion times on this forum, Sisu should open discussions with the Higgs Trust regarding the 50% stake of ACL that they currently hold and then further down the line the remaining 50% stake from the Council. Will this be done, highly unlikely but it's what most people would do I would like to think.

There was never nothing to nail down regarding the Cash Cow thing Duffer, I am not insisting that ACL are milking the Club of their revenues, what I am saying is they are receiving revenues which were sold off by the Clubs previous heirachy and which will be valuable to the Club in it's long term future.

 

[duffer]

As I have said a billion times on this forum, Sisu should open discussions with the Higgs Trust regarding the 50% stake of ACL that they currently hold and then further down the line the remaining 50% stake from the Council. Will this be done, highly unlikely but it's what most people would do I would like to think.

There was never nothing to nail down regarding the Cash Cow thing Duffer, I am not insisting that ACL are milking the Club of their revenues, what I am saying is they are receiving revenues which were sold off by the Clubs previous heirachy and which will be valuable to the Club in it's long term future.

Blimey, then we agree, broadly speaking. Apart from the "billion times" thing, which is clearly an exaggeration.

I've told you a million times Rob, don't exaggerate.

 

[John_Silletts_Nose]

Labovitch states, “If someone isn’t going to come and contact the club’s owner directly, how can you have a discussion about anything?"

Since very few people know who the owner(s) are then how can he contact them directly, unless the owners are going to make themselves known.

Note. Joy is not the owner as she stated in the CT interview, “I shepherd other people’s money."

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

As I have said a billion times on this forum, Sisu should open discussions with the Higgs Trust regarding the 50% stake of ACL that they currently hold and then further down the line the remaining 50% stake from the Council. Will this be done, highly unlikely but it's what most people would do I would like to think.

There was never nothing to nail down regarding the Cash Cow thing Duffer, I am not insisting that ACL are milking the Club of their revenues, what I am saying is they are receiving revenues which were sold off by the Clubs previous heirachy and which will be valuable to the Club in it's long term future.

Thing is Rob we don't even need a stake in ACL to make money from the Ricoh. Just buy out their share in IEC, Compass' 20% too if need be, and agree a long term lease with ACL to play there. A pretty good starting point.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

That's fair enough BSB but my point was if Martin Kelman wanted to make an offer of this sort, Mr Kelman should have gone directly to the Club first.

I suppose the first thing the club would ask is 'how much will ACL charge?' which he can only answer if he goes to ACL to ask the question. Much of a muchness really, fans already were paying the rent with their ticket money and this is a roundabout way of doing the same thing.

 

[Grendel]

Labovitch states, “If someone isn’t going to come and contact the club’s owner directly, how can you have a discussion about anything?"

Since very few people know who the owner(s) are then how can he contact them directly, unless the owners are going to make themselves known.

Note. Joy is not the owner as she stated in the CT interview, “I shepherd other people’s money."

What a stupid statement. ACL aren't the owners are they?

 

[RoboCCFC90]

I suppose the first thing the club would ask is 'how much will ACL charge?' which he can only answer if he goes to ACL to ask the question. Much of a muchness really, fans already were paying the rent with their ticket money and this is a roundabout way of doing the same thing.

I am not sure the Board of the Club will see it that way, for two reasons, firstly any deal that Martin Kelman is likely to agree with ACL is unlikely to be similar to the previous tenancy agreement and closer to the last deal offered by ACL. Secondly the Club won't be handing over a penny to ACL, but ACL will still profit from the Club and that will irk Sisu..


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[RoboCCFC90]

Thing is Rob we don't even need a stake in ACL to make money from the Ricoh. Just buy out their share in IEC, Compass' 20% too if need be, and agree a long term lease with ACL to play there. A pretty good starting point.

But according to Sisu BSB, Sisu won't go back to the Ricoh under a tenancy agreement.. If Sisu buy out ACL they will benefit from a lot more than just the Football Stadia, the conference centre, Hotel, etc. surely that would benefit the Club in the long term, should it be used in that manner of course.


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[RoboCCFC90]

Labovitch states, “If someone isn’t going to come and contact the club’s owner directly, how can you have a discussion about anything?"

Since very few people know who the owner(s) are then how can he contact them directly, unless the owners are going to make themselves known.

Note. Joy is not the owner as she stated in the CT interview, “I shepherd other people’s money."

JSN you pick out that one quote from ML but on three separate occasions in that article, ML states that the Clubs board and/or owners need to be consulted.

Don't take this the wrong way Sir but it's like you have picked what you wanted from that article.


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[Brighton Sky Blue]

I am not sure the Board of the Club will see it that way, for two reasons, firstly any deal that Martin Kelman is likely to agree with ACL is unlikely to be similar to the previous tenancy agreement and closer to the last deal offered by ACL. Secondly the Club won't be handing over a penny to ACL, but ACL will still profit from the Club and that will irk Sisu..


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A fan-funded rental payment works out the same as the fans giving the club the money to pay it through ticketing and other spending.

 

[Brighton Sky Blue]

But according to Sisu BSB, Sisu won't go back to the Ricoh under a tenancy agreement.. If Sisu buy out ACL they will benefit from a lot more than just the Football Stadia, the conference centre, Hotel, etc. surely that would benefit the Club in the long term, should it be used in that manner of course.


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Buying out ACL would entitle you to 80% of the stadium's revenue as it is through IEC that ACL derives its income. Buying out IEC would not have to be the be all and end all of us moving back, I should add. SISU are losing out on enormous sums as a direct consequence of playing in Northampton-they would see their finances improve markedly by returning even as tenants.

If we have enough money to build enough stadium, we have enough money to buy out access to the stadium's revenues.

 

[RoboCCFC90]

Buying out ACL would entitle you to 80% of the stadium's revenue as it is through IEC that ACL derives its income. Buying out IEC would not have to be the be all and end all of us moving back, I should add. SISU are losing out on enormous sums as a direct consequence of playing in Northampton-they would see their finances improve markedly by returning even as tenants.

If we have enough money to build enough stadium, we have enough money to buy out access to the stadium's revenues.

I don't disagree with any that and as I have previously stated all monies that Sisu are willing to invest in any new Stadia should be used to purchase as much of the Ricoh's revenues that will benefit CCFC as humanly possible.

I think we can all agree on the Northampton move by the way BSB, I am not sure many see it as a more stable financial footing.


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[RoboCCFC90]

A fan-funded rental payment works out the same as the fans giving the club the money to pay it through ticketing and other spending.

But what it also gives you is the lack of animosity between ACL and Sisu which is something that should be explored.


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