Judicial review thread - day 2 (37 Viewers)

[Sky Blue Dal]

No it doesn't, but if public money is to be spent on commercial enterprises then an application procedure must be followed and granted by the EU commission.
Clearly that did not happen as it takes many months and would require a hearing of all parties - including sisu/ccfc.




SORRY... IGNORE THIS.. Realised my error of my way. Concentration relapse!! Removed it

 

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[torchomatic]

I find it odd that a venue that wants to compete against the NEC and other venues wants to get rid of car parking facilities. Seems a bit mad. I used to park in C too.

 

[shmmeee]

I find it odd that a venue that wants to compete against the NEC and other venues wants to get rid of car parking facilities. Seems a bit mad. I used to park in C too.

Multistorey?

 

[King of the Lesbians]

Has he got a bag big enough to hold a smoking gun? I'm waiting for the big reveal...

The big reveal was in #129. It was the court recorders banana.
The shape of it lead everybody to believe it was a smoking gun...

 

[Rob S]

Has he got a bag big enough to hold a smoking gun? I'm waiting for the big reveal...

I think the discussions about a smoking gun were a bit presumptive. Not having a lot of the disclosure evidence read in due to dropping arguments yesterday has taken a lot of potential fun and scandal away. Wonder if we'll ever get to see those? Civil action maybe? Meh.

This really is the dry end of the legal piss-up. You'll need to get down to the Crown Court for something juicy. Involved procedural intricacies on points of EU admin law really are as fun as they soundzzzzzzzz........

*falls off chair*

 

[Rob S]

Sisu QC offered judge opportunity to break for lunch but denied! Worst news since the coat hanger story.

My stomach is about to get slapped with a contempt of court charge any minute now.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So basically you're saying that the only company that may have grounds to complain that the loan through CCC was state aid would be the YB, as they are the only private company involved that faced what could be described as unfair commercial advantage.

So why are sisu doing this?

The case isn't about demonstrating that any one company lost out though, it's about showing a distortion of the market. The commercial loans market had been distorted by a state body using state funds (in theory).

 

[Rob S]

Simon Gilbert has his head down going for a tactical snooze?

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

@TheSimonGilbert: Sisu QC just summed up key points. Focus on councillors not being correctly informed by council officers ahead of 14.4m loan decision

 

[Otis]

Got to say I'm flagging here. The court recorder pulled out a banana at the break earlier which shows that he knows his stuff. Roll on lunch...

I don't think there can be a draw on this one.
The loan either passed the EU test or it didn't !

I'm more interested to know whether the banana passed the EU test or not to be quite honest.

 

[skybluetony176]

The case isn't about demonstrating that any one company lost out though, it's about showing a distortion of the market. The commercial loans market had been distorted by a state body using state funds (in theory).

So why has the club been tagged onto the list of companies with arvo that are seeking the JR? As far as I know none of the companies that make up the club are not in the mortgage business. If anyone was going in with arvo surely it would be another company in the financial market? HSBC Lloyds TSB, Wonga etc.


OK, maybe not Wonga but they'd be more relevant to the basis of the JR than a football club.

 

[Rob S]

Sisu QC saying what he wants to say about legal references etc. to come.

Discussion on timings for rest of case.

Clive Eakin looks like he'd rather be watching an international tiddlywinks friendly than be here.

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

Got to say I'm flagging here. The court recorder pulled out a banana at the break earlier which shows that he knows his stuff. Roll on lunch...

There


I'm more interested to know whether the banana passed the EU test or not to be quite honest.

There are strict rules on banana being imported into the UK. They have to have a decent bend in them.

 

[Otis]

Multistorey?

Tis indeed. There is Sisu's, ACL's, CCC's and the Yorkshire Banks.

How many more stories do you want?

 

[Otis]

There are strict rules on banana being imported into the UK. They have to have a decent bend in them.

Like Beckham?

 

[Godiva]

So basically you're saying that the only company that may have grounds to complain that the loan through CCC was state aid would be the YB, as they are the only private company involved that faced what could be described as unfair commercial advantage.

So why are sisu doing this?

Not that simple really.
First - everyone can complain about state aid - not restricted to those directly involved.
Secondly - sisu offered to buy out the loan, they are a financial unit so in direct competition with YB. They may claim public money was used to starve them off a profit.

 

[duffer]

Sisu QC offered judge opportunity to break for lunch but denied! Worst news since the coat hanger story.

My stomach is about to get slapped with a contempt of court charge any minute now.

Can you be thrown out, locked up, for intestinal rumbling? Dangerous times! It sounds like the Judge really has got it in for that particular QC, do you think he ran over his dog?

Time for a gratuitous Simpsons quote, I feel...

Hutz: No don't you worry Mrs. Simpson, I-Uh-oh. We've drawn Judge Snyder.
Marge: Is that bad?
Hutz: Well, he's had it in for me ever since I kinda ran over his dog.
Marge: You did?
Hutz: Well, replace the word “kinda” with the word “repeatedly,” and the word “dog” with “son.”

 

[Sky Blue Dal]

QUOTE: Case law is a bit technical but main point so far is Sisu QC says council should have informed EU but didn’t.


If this is the case then the CCC have totally messed up.

 

[fernandopartridge]

So why has the club been tagged onto the list of companies with arvo that are seeking the JR? As far as I know none of the companies that make up the club are not in the mortgage business. If anyone was going in with arvo surely it would be another company in the financial market? HSBC Lloyds TSB, Wonga etc.


OK, maybe not Wonga but they'd be more relevant to the basis of the JR than a football club.

I don't know mate

 

[martcov]

I don't think there can be a draw on this one.
The loan either passed the EU test or it didn't !

Yes, but if it did not pass and there was no remedy ( no corrections ) suggested by the judge - everything stays the same anyway, then I'd call that a draw.

 

[fernandopartridge]

QUOTE: Case law is a bit technical but main point so far is Sisu QC says council should have informed EU but didn’t.


If this is the case then the CCC have totally messed up.

There is a deminimus (below threshold or block exemption) declaration for recipents to complete but not sure if the authority has to actively declare anything tbh.

Also not sure what the remedy for not telling the EU would be anyway.

 

[shmmeee]

I'd guess that the ruling's going to be the decision needs to be retaken and EU informed, if they're happy we're happy and we all move to Brussels for the second leg.

 

[Godiva]

There is a deminimus (below threshold or block exemption) declaration for recipents to complete but not sure if the authority has to actively declare anything tbh.

Also not sure what the remedy for not telling the EU would be anyway.

Threshold is £200.000 I believe.
Anyway - here's a 60 slide PowerPoint presentation on the subject:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/31700/11-1040-state-aid-guide.pdf

 

[duffer]

There is a deminimus (below threshold or block exemption) declaration for recipents to complete but not sure if the authority has to actively declare anything tbh.

Also not sure what the remedy for not telling the EU would be anyway.

FP, I'm impressed. You've been reading up. Stay warmed up, I reckon you'll be coming on for the hungry bloke at around sixty minutes, the judge has got his card marked.

https://www.gov.uk/state-aid#de-minimis-aid-regulations

 

[AFCCOVENTRY]

I'd guess that the ruling's going to be the decision needs to be retaken and EU informed, if they're happy we're happy and we all move to Brussels for the second leg.

Wow...champions league final.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I'd guess that the ruling's going to be the decision needs to be retaken and EU informed, if they're happy we're happy and we all move to Brussels for the second leg.

Can't wait.

 

[fernandopartridge]

Threshold is £200.000 I believe.
Anyway - here's a 60 slide PowerPoint presentation on the subject:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/31700/11-1040-state-aid-guide.pdf

The threshold applies to the recipient over a rolling 3 year period. In previous employment I've had some experience in state aid including a huge exercise that had to be undertaken to get deminimus declarations from 100s of funding recipients.

 

[Mary_Mungo_Midge]

I find it odd that a venue that wants to compete against the NEC and other venues wants to get rid of car parking facilities. Seems a bit mad. I used to park in C too.

Look at where it was though. Prime land. If it was a case of selling that for top-dollar, and reinvesting some of that raised in additional, better parking and netting a profit in so doing; that would make sense

 

[shmmeee]

Can't wait.

I was trying to think "What would be the most annoying outcome possible?" as that tends to be what happens to City fans.

 

[Godiva]

I'd guess that the ruling's going to be the decision needs to be retaken and EU informed, if they're happy we're happy and we all move to Brussels for the second leg.

I don't think so - in case the use of public funds is found illegal state aid the judge will rule so. I believe he will tell the council to revoke the loan - probably giving a one month schedule to comply. Then CCC may appeal, but I think the sisu QC making a big fuss about individual councillors not being guided truthfully will create some political waves and intense discussions before any decision about appealing can happen. Oh and Chris West is probably going to take the blame.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I was trying to think "What would be the most annoying outcome possible?" as that tends to be what happens to City fans.

The fallout of this sees SISU team up with Robinson, Richardson and McGinnity in a dream team consortium, money is raised beyond pies by Mutton and Lucas agreeing to take part in an infinite number of streaking contests? Marlon King appointed to improve club's profile among women, Byng given the brief of social media and technology officer?

 

[shmmeee]

I don't think so - in case the use of public funds is found illegal state aid the judge will rule so. I believe he will tell the council to revoke the loan - probably giving a one month schedule to comply. Then CCC may appeal, but I think the sisu QC making a big fuss about individual councillors not being guided truthfully will create some political waves and intense discussions before any decision about appealing can happen. Oh and Chris West is probably going to take the blame.

I thought the accepted wisdom was the judge couldn't declare what should happen, just that the decision needs to be retaken?

Edit: my OP wasn't serious BTW.

 

[shmmeee]

The fallout of this sees SISU team up with Robinson, Richardson and McGinnity in a dream team consortium, money is raised beyond pies by Mutton and Lucas agreeing to take part in an infinite number of streaking contests? Marlon King appointed to improve club's profile among women, Byng given the brief of social media and technology officer?

Brody, surely?

Edit: no, forgot about the email issue. You're right.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

I was trying to think "What would be the most annoying outcome possible?" as that tends to be what happens to City fans.

In all seriousness, *if* it boiled down to being rejected just on a point of procedure, it would suggesta result in this doesn't really move us forward as such, just delays any resolution.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

Brody, surely?

Byng far far better, his emailing capabilities are renowned across Eurasia!