Ricoh Arena and Development Land Value ? (16 Viewers)

[Godiva]

Both of these comments from yourself are as true as each other.


The truth is more like the mentioning of how many people use the arena are from those saying that it does more business than some on here don't like being true. It isn't desolate. It isn't on the verge of bankruptcy as a few like to make out. This has also been the SISU line for ages, although when asked for proof they just said it is what they think.

It certainly isn't doing as good as it could be though. It could have our football club there. This would raise the footfall and the profile. If it was just a football stadium it would financially be in trouble. But it isn't just a bit of grass with seats around it. And just because SISU says it is doing poorly it doesn't mean it is. They say the freehold isn't worth much. This part is true. They say the lease is also not worth anything. This isn't true. If it was true it would make the whole arena and land worthless.

You say 'the truth is ACL is not on the verge of bankruptcy'? How do you know? Do you have access to the accounts? Do you know the current and projected cash flow?
I have no access to inside information, and I suspect you don't have either.
So we are both speculating.

I am speculating that both the club and ACL are virtual bankrupt, and that both companies bleeds cash.
They both need each other to have a chance to become solvent.
The main difference is who has a sugar daddy?
Not ACL - I can't see Higgs injecting more money, and if the council put in more ... well, that's another case of state aid.
But sisu keeps injecting money into the club. That's what will make a difference at some point in time.

(Btw - sisu have never claimed the lease is worthless. They claim ACL are worthless. There's a difference).

 

---

[letsallsingtogether]

just drive by any day I do it regular so the proof is there.
As for the concrete soulless jungle as you lot like to call it have never heard a good word about it from the likes of you and your mate Gren except about knocking it down, so what are we supposed to think.....

Where has anyone said they are happy playing in Northampton?

It's also funny how the same old posters like to tell us how sbusy the Ricoh is too and how full the car parks are too, isn't it?

 

[duffer]

You say 'the truth is ACL is not on the verge of bankruptcy'? How do you know? Do you have access to the accounts? Do you know the current and projected cash flow?
I have no access to inside information, and I suspect you don't have either.
So we are both speculating.

I am speculating that both the club and ACL are virtual bankrupt, and that both companies bleeds cash.
They both need each other to have a chance to become solvent.
The main difference is who has a sugar daddy?
Not ACL - I can't see Higgs injecting more money, and if the council put in more ... well, that's another case of state aid.
But sisu keeps injecting money into the club. That's what will make a difference at some point in time.

(Btw - sisu have never claimed the lease is worthless. They claim ACL are worthless. There's a difference).

Didn't OSB point out that ACL (in their last set of accounts) had a fair amount of cash in the bank and were signed off by the auditors without any 'going concern' warnings. Now obviously the cash flow etc. only covers the last accounting period, but it hardly suggests that they are on the verge of bankruptcy.

You could compare and constrast that to the CCFC accounts which seem to talk about loans being (potentially) called in and lots more worrying signs. This was, of course, one of the reasons that some fans wanted a forum with the club to discuss them.

Regardless, the truth would seem to be that both businesses ACL & CCFC would do better with both located at the Ricoh. It's just that one business in particular (imho), seems particularly wedded to the idea of damaging the other - no matter the cost.

 

[Godiva]

Didn't OSB point out that ACL (in their last set of accounts) had a fair amount of cash in the bank and were signed off by the auditors without any 'going concern' warnings. Now obviously the cash flow etc. only covers the last accounting period, but it hardly suggests that they are on the verge of bankruptcy.

You could compare and constrast that to the CCFC accounts which seem to talk about loans being (potentially) called in and lots more worrying signs. This was, of course, one of the reasons that some fans wanted a forum with the club to discuss them.

Regardless, the truth would seem to be that both businesses ACL & CCFC would do better with both located at the Ricoh. It's just that one business in particular (imho), seems particularly wedded to the idea of damaging the other - no matter the cost.

I am going to relay a recent analysis by OSB (he did in a PM to me):
Summary of the totals for years from 01/06/05 to 31/5/13
Profits +3,553,665
Cash surplus +624,556

During that time ACL
sold assets 5.79m (shares to Compass 2012 and sales of land in 2007)
Purchased assets 13.85m
repaid loan capital 6.6m (including a one off of 3.2m in 2010 when isle of capri deal done)
repaid loan interest 8.3m.

What is interesting is the compensation from Isle of Capri. ACL received some £7m and then did an extraordinary down payment of £3.2m on the loan to YB (as said by OSB above).
This means that a crude figure of some £4m can be subtracted from the periods cash surplus - so ACL would have bled some £3m in the period.

This is all within a period where the club paid £1.3m per year, except for the first 5 month of 2013.
It also includes extraordinaire income from the Olympics.

Now the club is gone, the businesses are missing out on 300.000 punters a year.
Sure - the loan payment has dropped maybe £600t per year, and ACL have undergone some restructuring. Still - I can't see they are in any way making a positive cash flow.

Maybe you can find bits and pieces adding some token cash elements, but I simply can't see how ACL can be cash flow positive.
And if I am right, then at some point they will run out. What happens then?

 

[Jack Griffin]

The train station will benefit Tescos. The arena with its one event a year is hardly going to be a draw is it?

Can't knock it down either so the value is negative I would think.

Funny I noticed that they have a 2nd gamers event (insomnia) & a 2nd music event (outbreak festival), they already had one each of these earlier this year.

Plus there is a snooker & a darts events before the end of the year.

Maybe you can find bits and pieces adding some token cash elements, but I simply can't see how ACL can be cash flow positive.
And if I am right, then at some point they will run out. What happens then?

Hasn't there been a drive to reduce overheads, which changes balance of the equation. Anyway the accounts will be available next February, you can do a recalc.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

But no one will go to it it's a shithole with no soul didn't you know.

It's all lies it is really shut but they have good spin Doctors to bullshit the General Public.....

Funny I noticed that they have a 2nd gamers event (insomnia) & a 2nd music event (outbreak festival), they already had one each of these earlier this year.

Plus there is a snooker & a darts events before the end of the year.



Hasn't there been a drive to reduce overheads, which changes balance of the equation. Anyway the accounts will be available next February, you can do a recalc.

 

[Astute]

You say 'the truth is ACL is not on the verge of bankruptcy'? How do you know? Do you have access to the accounts? Do you know the current and projected cash flow?
I have no access to inside information, and I suspect you don't have either.
So we are both speculating.

I am speculating that both the club and ACL are virtual bankrupt

The buildings and land has a positive value.
The stadium management business is virtually bankrupt.

Make your mind up. Are you speculating whilst stating something as a fact?

So if ACL have been signed off as a going concern and have an income coming in that is more than the outgoings how can you state such as a fact that it is in a bad state like our club?

And BTW the value of ACL is the value of the lease. There is a mortgage on the 14m loan. This works out to about 300k a year.

And you honestly think that the SISU investors will continue to put millions in year after year so Joy can carry on with her mission?

 

[Astute]

I am going to relay a recent analysis by OSB (he did in a PM to me):
Summary of the totals for years from 01/06/05 to 31/5/13
Profits +3,553,665
Cash surplus +624,556

During that time ACL
sold assets 5.79m (shares to Compass 2012 and sales of land in 2007)
Purchased assets 13.85m
repaid loan capital 6.6m (including a one off of 3.2m in 2010 when isle of capri deal done)
repaid loan interest 8.3m.

What is interesting is the compensation from Isle of Capri. ACL received some £7m and then did an extraordinary down payment of £3.2m on the loan to YB (as said by OSB above).
This means that a crude figure of some £4m can be subtracted from the periods cash surplus - so ACL would have bled some £3m in the period.

This is all within a period where the club paid £1.3m per year, except for the first 5 month of 2013.
It also includes extraordinaire income from the Olympics.

Now the club is gone, the businesses are missing out on 300.000 punters a year.
Sure - the loan payment has dropped maybe £600t per year, and ACL have undergone some restructuring. Still - I can't see they are in any way making a positive cash flow.

Maybe you can find bits and pieces adding some token cash elements, but I simply can't see how ACL can be cash flow positive.
And if I am right, then at some point they will run out. What happens then?

It is so easy to hide the truth in a long post.

when the arena first opened the only customer was CCFC. The business has been built up each year. The income has gone up each year. There will always be one off payments. The next one seems to be the naming rights that seems to be up soon. This will be at a reduced amount without our football club, but if it goes for 5m over 10 years that will work out as 500k a year. This is a fair bit more than the loan costs.

Loan payment of 600k a year you say? CCC got the loan on behalf of ACL on a low rate. Was said to be something like 2.5% IIRC. So a quick calculation in my head tells me just over half of what you are saying. Which is well under what they should get for the naming rights which is said to be due, and this is without normal income.

 

[No future with SISU]

The train station will benefit Tescos. The arena with its one event a year is hardly going to be a draw is it?

Can't knock it down either so the value is negative I would think.

It makes the RICOH a better choice for events compared to other stadiums, so bookings will increase and ACL value will rise.

 

[Ian1779]

It is so easy to hide the truth in a long post.

when the arena first opened the only customer was CCFC. The business has been built up each year. The income has gone up each year. There will always be one off payments. The next one seems to be the naming rights that seems to be up soon. This will be at a reduced amount without our football club, but if it goes for 5m over 10 years that will work out as 500k a year. This is a fair bit more than the loan costs.

Loan payment of 600k a year you say? CCC got the loan on behalf of ACL on a low rate. Was said to be something like 2.5% IIRC. So a quick calculation in my head tells me just over half of what you are saying. Which is well under what they should get for the naming rights which is said to be due, and this is without normal income.

How much did ACL make in selling the contract to Compass? Will Compass not be thinking they have been dealt a bit of a shit deal now considering they are missing out on selling their wares to in excess of a quarter of million people a year.

As for the naming rights - a year or two ago we were told that it had been renewed until 2025 - that was bollocks. Maybe they will renew - but the longer the Ricoh is missing its main tenant those values or deal itself may change significantly.

The real truth is that we are all guessing - but thinking about it sensibly it is more difficult to see how a purpose built arena could be successful long term if the party that would drive it's primary business is not there.

 

[No future with SISU]

You say 'the truth is ACL is not on the verge of bankruptcy'? How do you know? Do you have access to the accounts? Do you know the current and projected cash flow?
I have no access to inside information, and I suspect you don't have either.
So we are both speculating.

I am speculating that both the club and ACL are virtual bankrupt, and that both companies bleeds cash.
They both need each other to have a chance to become solvent.
The main difference is who has a sugar daddy?
Not ACL - I can't see Higgs injecting more money, and if the council put in more ... well, that's another case of state aid.
But sisu keeps injecting money into the club. That's what will make a difference at some point in time.

(Btw - sisu have never claimed the lease is worthless. They claim ACL are worthless. There's a difference).

Your statement has missed out one item, what if SISU do not have the funds to keep funding CCFC they may be broke before ACL.

 

[Godiva]

Make your mind up. Are you speculating whilst stating something as a fact?

So if ACL have been signed off as a going concern and have an income coming in that is more than the outgoings how can you state such as a fact that it is in a bad state like our club?

And BTW the value of ACL is the value of the lease. There is a mortgage on the 14m loan. This works out to about 300k a year.

And you honestly think that the SISU investors will continue to put millions in year after year so Joy can carry on with her mission?

Ok, you don't have access to ACL accounts either. You're speculating, only you won't admit it.

The auditors signed off the accounts ending May last year. That was on the back of the CCC bail-out, which btw gave ACL a cash surplus of £400t. The YB loan was settled at £14m - the ccc issued loan was £14.4m. Why do you think that surplus was necessary?

Why do you think ACL called in the guarantees on the clubs debts? And did they give a discount of £200k to get the cash in quickly?

Is it signs of cash flow problems.

What happens if ACL is ordered to pay back the loan to the council - we'll find out soon if that is an issue I suppose.

The value of ACL is not equal to the value of the lease. That is complete nonsense. The lease has no commercial value for ACL as it cannot be sold on. It's an exclusivity only.
But in any case, it is the cash flow that decides the future of ACL. If the cash flow is negative, they will run out of money at some point.

That's why sisu is using every trick in the book to avoid giving cash to ACL.

 

[Godiva]

Your statement has missed out one item, what if SISU do not have the funds to keep funding CCFC they may be broke before ACL.

Not really a science is it?
If sisu stops injecting money the club will go bust.

But they will do what Robinson did - sell for what they can get.

It may well be that they will reconsider their position if the JR verdict is against them. Who knows.

 

[Grendel]

Ok, you don't have access to ACL accounts either. You're speculating, only you won't admit it.

The auditors signed off the accounts ending May last year. That was on the back of the CCC bail-out, which btw gave ACL a cash surplus of £400t. The YB loan was settled at £14m - the ccc issued loan was £14.4m. Why do you think that surplus was necessary?

Why do you think ACL called in the guarantees on the clubs debts? And did they give a discount of £200k to get the cash in quickly?

Is it signs of cash flow problems.

What happens if ACL is ordered to pay back the loan to the council - we'll find out soon if that is an issue I suppose.

The value of ACL is not equal to the value of the lease. That is complete nonsense. The lease has no commercial value for ACL as it cannot be sold on. It's an exclusivity only.
But in any case, it is the cash flow that decides the future of ACL. If the cash flow is negative, they will run out of money at some point.

That's why sisu is using every trick in the book to avoid giving cash to ACL.

Posters on here just think profit. That isn't great but it's common sense that cash flow now has to be massively reduced.

No cash - no business.

 

[Grendel]

Funny I noticed that they have a 2nd gamers event (insomnia) & a 2nd music event (outbreak festival), they already had one each of these earlier this year.

Plus there is a snooker & a darts events before the end of the year.
/QUOTE]

Christ is that all they have? They really are fucked aren't they?

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Of course they are?
Silly me....

Funny I noticed that they have a 2nd gamers event (insomnia) & a 2nd music event (outbreak festival), they already had one each of these earlier this year.

Plus there is a snooker & a darts events before the end of the year.
/QUOTE]

Christ is that all they have? They really are fucked aren't they?

 

[Grendel]

Of course they are?
Silly me....




Why do you care about ACL?

 

[Astute]

Ok, you don't have access to ACL accounts either. You're speculating, only you won't admit it.

The auditors signed off the accounts ending May last year. That was on the back of the CCC bail-out, which btw gave ACL a cash surplus of £400t. The YB loan was settled at £14m - the ccc issued loan was £14.4m. Why do you think that surplus was necessary?

Why do you think ACL called in the guarantees on the clubs debts? And did they give a discount of £200k to get the cash in quickly?

Is it signs of cash flow problems.

What happens if ACL is ordered to pay back the loan to the council - we'll find out soon if that is an issue I suppose.

The value of ACL is not equal to the value of the lease. That is complete nonsense. The lease has no commercial value for ACL as it cannot be sold on. It's an exclusivity only.
But in any case, it is the cash flow that decides the future of ACL. If the cash flow is negative, they will run out of money at some point.

That's why sisu is using every trick in the book to avoid giving cash to ACL.

Your bias towards wanting SISU to get the Ricoh for a song is so obvious. If only our club would financially gain from it if it happened.

Me speculating? It was you that said ACL are in financial shit. Then you admitted you don't know. I just stated the facts as we know them. And you must agree because you never tried to prove them wrong but just changed your plan of attack on what I said.

We would both be guessing on calling in of the debts. But do you think they called them in one week and they got paid the next? But I don't want to speculate on something that we know nothing about yet.

Cash flow problems? It is our football club that has cash flow problems. You have already admitted that ACL are in profit, but you tried to make them average lower in counting the early years when the income was much lower as it was a new business.

What happens if...........a lot of the problems you want to see in ACL start with if.........

Did I say that the value of ACL is equal to the loan? Twisting words again. I said it looks like they have to raise about 300k to cover loan repayments each year but this should easily be covered by the stadium naming rights. It was you that was trying to say that the value was nothing.

And yes we all know why our club and us fans are suffering. Yes it is to try and send ACL to the wall. There is no secret there. Even the judge saw this straight away. SISU have even done it by unlawful means. And this is why we have had to suffer the JR. There is not the slightest proof that the SISU plan on sending ACL to the wall is working. Maybe it would have if the mortgage wasn't refinanced. But it was. We will have to see what happens next week and onwards.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

So Grendel enlighten us.

You and your crew have never had one good word for the Ricoh in fact I would say your views show a hatred for the place!! at the same time you feel that Sixfields is a far better place.

Yet you also say you would like Coventry back home?

Posters on here just think profit. That isn't great but it's common sense that cash flow now has to be massively reduced.

No cash - no business.

 

[Grendel]

So Grendel enlighten us.

You and your crew have never had one good word for the Ricoh in fact I would say your views show a hatred for the place!! at the same time you feel that Sixfields is a far better place.

Yet you also say you would like Coventry back home?

I have never said sixfields is a far better place - that is absurd.

I am not a huge fan of the Ricoh - it is what it is - a new build stadium similar to many others.

What k don't get is an interest in ACL. If they go down the club is far more likely to return.

 

[Grendel]

Your bias towards wanting SISU to get the Ricoh for a song is so obvious. If only our club would financially gain from it if it happened.

Me speculating? It was you that said ACL are in financial shit. Then you admitted you don't know. I just stated the facts as we know them. And you must agree because you never tried to prove them wrong but just changed your plan of attack on what I said.

We would both be guessing on calling in of the debts. But do you think they called them in one week and they got paid the next? But I don't want to speculate on something that we know nothing about yet.

Cash flow problems? It is our football club that has cash flow problems. You have already admitted that ACL are in profit, but you tried to make them average lower in counting the early years when the income was much lower as it was a new business.

What happens if...........a lot of the problems you want to see in ACL start with if.........

Did I say that the value of ACL is equal to the loan? Twisting words again. I said it looks like they have to raise about 300k to cover loan repayments each year but this should easily be covered by the stadium naming rights. It was you that was trying to say that the value was nothing.

And yes we all know why our club and us fans are suffering. Yes it is to try and send ACL to the wall. There is no secret there. Even the judge saw this straight away. SISU have even done it by unlawful means. And this is why we have had to suffer the JR. There is not the slightest proof that the SISU plan on sending ACL to the wall is working. Maybe it would have if the mortgage wasn't refinanced. But it was. We will have to see what happens next week and onwards.

You do understand the difference between cash flow and profit and loss don't you?

 

[Rusty Trombone]

I have never said sixfields is a far better place - that is absurd.

I am not a huge fan of the Ricoh - it is what it is - a new build stadium similar to many others.

What k don't get is an interest in ACL. If they go down the club is far more likely to return.

What would be the process for the club to return if ACL 'go down'? It would involve a new lease being sold by the Council to the highest/best bidder wouldn't it?

 

[Grendel]

What would be the process for the club to return if ACL 'go down'? It would involve a new lease being sold by the Council to the highest/best bidder wouldn't it?

Who would bid for a worthless company with a large mortgage and nosin tenant?

 

[skybluetony176]

You do understand the difference between cash flow and profit and loss don't you?

Whether he does or doesn't I think you're trying to educate the wrong person. It's a lesson more required by TF, ML & Co. They don't seem to understand the importance of it to the club and I know you're only interested in the club.

 

[Godiva]

Your bias towards wanting SISU to get the Ricoh for a song is so obvious. If only our club would financially gain from it if it happened.

Me speculating? It was you that said ACL are in financial shit. Then you admitted you don't know. I just stated the facts as we know them. And you must agree because you never tried to prove them wrong but just changed your plan of attack on what I said.

We would both be guessing on calling in of the debts. But do you think they called them in one week and they got paid the next? But I don't want to speculate on something that we know nothing about yet.

Cash flow problems? It is our football club that has cash flow problems. You have already admitted that ACL are in profit, but you tried to make them average lower in counting the early years when the income was much lower as it was a new business.

What happens if...........a lot of the problems you want to see in ACL start with if.........

Did I say that the value of ACL is equal to the loan? Twisting words again. I said it looks like they have to raise about 300k to cover loan repayments each year but this should easily be covered by the stadium naming rights. It was you that was trying to say that the value was nothing.

And yes we all know why our club and us fans are suffering. Yes it is to try and send ACL to the wall. There is no secret there. Even the judge saw this straight away. SISU have even done it by unlawful means. And this is why we have had to suffer the JR. There is not the slightest proof that the SISU plan on sending ACL to the wall is working. Maybe it would have if the mortgage wasn't refinanced. But it was. We will have to see what happens next week and onwards.

Yes, my bias is obvious - it has been the same for many years. I want ACL and CCFC under the same umbrella. I want the club to benefit from every pence spent at the stadium.
I have said it countless times. I said it before most on here believed FFP would ever become an issue.

But I don't want sisu to own the Ricoh. I have said that just as many times. I want SBS&L to own the club and ACL (or equivalent management company), but not the freehold, not the stadium itself.
Sisu own SBS&L for now, but that can change. If they lose the JR - maybe they will walk and invite Byng to buy the club.
But whoever owns the club, it is imperative they also own ACL.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Bollocks that is not the way you say it.

So a soulless concrete jungle with little or no atmosphere your words.

Yet Northampton is not a bad little ground!!!!

Now I would expect that from a Leicester supporter but not a Coventry Fan.

People hated Highfield Road but they would have defended it to the hilt Ricoh is no different it is OUR HOME.

I work in Leicester even they have more praise/respect for it then you...

I have never said sixfields is a far better place - that is absurd.

I am not a huge fan of the Ricoh - it is what it is - a new build stadium similar to many others.

What k don't get is an interest in ACL. If they go down the club is far more likely to return.

 

[Grendel]

Whether he does or doesn't I think you're trying to educate the wrong person. It's a lesson more required by TF, ML & Co. They don't seem to understand the importance of it to the club and I know you're only interested in the club.

There is no suggestion the club has a cash flow problem is there?

 

[ccfcway]

There is no suggestion the club has a cash flow problem is there?

not at all, cash is flowing out at a rate of millions a year

 

[Grendel]

Bollocks that is not the way you say it.

So a soulless concrete jungle with little or no atmosphere your words.

Yet Northampton is not a bad little ground!!!!

Now I would expect that from a Leicester supporter but not a Coventry Fan.

People hated Highfield Road but they would have defended it to the hilt Ricoh is no different it is OUR HOME.

I work in Leicester even they have more praise/respect for it then you...

I think you'll find I said facility wise the Ricoh was far superior than high field road.

 

[skybluetony176]

Who would bid for a worthless company with a large mortgage and nosin tenant?

He wasn't talking about ACL he was talking about the lease itself. You do understand the difference between a company and a lease don't you? ;-)

 

[Grendel]

He wasn't talking about ACL he was talking about the lease itself. You do understand the difference between a company and a lease don't you? ;-)

The lease is worthless though as it has no tenant. That's my point. The stadium won't attract a lease purchaser as it has no marketability, no sponsor and even the car parking has been taken away - the club would be the only interested party.

 

[Astute]

You do understand the difference between cash flow and profit and loss don't you?

It is you and a few others that struggle to work it out. And you can add SISU to that if what you are saying is right.

Why are SISU wasting millions each year trying to get the freehold cheaply if the stadium doesn't make any money? A cheap rental agreement would be worth at least 2m a year to our club but an arena not making money like some of you are trying to make out wouldn't be worth losing countless millions over.

 

[skybluetony176]

There is no suggestion the club has a cash flow problem is there?

Not as long as ARVO are willing to continue "investing" money as share issues.

Do you think that's a bottomless pit or do you think that they might want to get their money back and earn a profit at some point? It can't be good for ARVO's cash flow if money is only ever going out and not coming in.

 

[Astute]

Yes, my bias is obvious - it has been the same for many years. I want ACL and CCFC under the same umbrella. I want the club to benefit from every pence spent at the stadium.
I have said it countless times. I said it before most on here believed FFP would ever become an issue.

But I don't want sisu to own the Ricoh. I have said that just as many times. I want SBS&L to own the club and ACL (or equivalent management company), but not the freehold, not the stadium itself.
Sisu own SBS&L for now, but that can change. If they lose the JR - maybe they will walk and invite Byng to buy the club.
But whoever owns the club, it is imperative they also own ACL.

Which is what most of us want. But most of us don't constantly try and make out that ACL is losing money when there is no proof at all of it being true.

 

[Jack Griffin]

Christ is that all they have? They really are fucked aren't they?

The only reason I posted that is because you started lying.

The train station will benefit Tescos. The arena with its one event a year is hardly going to be a draw is it?

Can't knock it down either so the value is negative I would think.

Didn't your Mum tell you not to lie?