Open letter from Joy and Tim (17 Viewers)

[Nick]

On what basis would MM & GR have grounds to reclaim their money back of sisu? Other than because ML said so how are ACL getting paid twice? ACL want the £590k figure that the FL made up as a condition of otium receiving the right to play in the league.

To be honest I wish the FL never put this financial clause in it. All its done is complicate things further and the quickest and simplest way out of it is for the FL to pay ACL in full and we can all move onto the next hurdle of the JR. If it's going to cost sisu £590k regardless of if they pay it all to ACL or £300k to MM/GR and the balance to ACL lets get it all paid to ACL and leave MM/GR to argue the toss with ACL rather than ACL & sisu arguing about it instead of getting the club home. Why would you want anything else?

Once the £590k is sorted we can then move onto this nonsense about not being able to do a deal while the JR is still going on. They were willing to do a deal last season while the JR was going on so why not this year. I think this is something Rob S can lead the way on and something we should all get behind him on.

One bridge (excuse) at a time.

They may well not have any grounds, but that is who they should take it up with.

It isn't hard is it, if the MM and GR payment is for the same thing then the FL take what they paid off and SISU pay the rest, if it is different they pay it all. It is all sat there waiting for the FL to decide so nothing to get knickers in a twist about.

 

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[skybluetony176]

Every now and again you surprise me

Pleasantly I hope

 

[skybluetony176]

They may well not have any grounds, but that is who they should take it up with.

It isn't hard is it, if the MM and GR payment is for the same thing then the FL take what they paid off and SISU pay the rest, if it is different they pay it all. It is all sat there waiting for the FL to decide so nothing to get knickers in a twist about.

Did the FL say that MM & GR had to make the payment in order for otium to receive the right to play in the league?

So you're suggesting that the FL should hand the £300k that MM and GR have paid ACL back to them by taking it from the £590k in the escrow account? Would that even be legal? Would that not open them up to a world of litigation from ACL?

If it's stopping the club returning home it's worth getting your knickers in a twist, surely.

 

[CCFCSteve]

I might be repeating what's already been said in the thread but I'm guessing that MM and GR were still liable under their guarantees. The £590k only pays a small proportion of what ACL were owed and therefore ACL were within their rights to call on the guarantors to make an additional payment.

If that's the case the guarantor payment has nothing to do with SISU/FL.

 

[Nick]

Did the FL say that MM & GR had to make the payment in order for otium to receive the right to play in the league?

So you're suggesting that the FL should hand the £300k that MM and GR have paid ACL back to them by taking it from the £590k in the escrow account? Would that even be legal? Would that not open them up to a world of litigation from ACL?

If it's stopping the club returning home it's worth getting your knickers in a twist, surely.

No, I am saying if MM and GR want to try and get the money back they should chase SISU for it (if they have any chance of it) IF it is for the same thing that the 590k is then why should ACL get the money twice?? If it is totally different, SISU will and should pay up. That is the FL to decide. Surely ACL should accept it is with the FL and that SISU have complied by putting it all there for now and surely they should be chasing the FL to sort their act out? It seems like it is the FL causing this hold up at the minute as they have said the money is there.

 

[skybluetony176]

I might be repeating what's already been said in the thread but I'm guessing that MM and GR were still liable under their guarantees. The £590k only pays a small proportion of what ACL were owed and therefore ACL were within their rights to call on the guarantors to make an additional payment.

If that's the case the guarantor payment has nothing to do with SISU/FL.

You'd think wouldn't you? If ACL had have accepted the CVA and ACL then went on to get the guarantor payments would PA be looking for £300k back of ACL from the CVA payment they received? I doubt it and I would also doubt that if it had have happened their would be a legal basis for PA to do so.

 

[skybluetony176]

No, I am saying if MM and GR want to try and get the money back they should chase SISU for it (if they have any chance of it) IF it is for the same thing that the 590k is then why should ACL get the money twice?? If it is totally different, SISU will and should pay up. That is the FL to decide. Surely ACL should accept it is with the FL and that SISU have complied by putting it all there for now and surely they should be chasing the FL to sort their act out? It seems like it is the FL causing this hold up at the minute as they have said the money is there.

I'll ask you again. Did the FL say that MM & GR had to pay ACL £300k so otium could receive the right to play in the football league?

What authority do the FL have to rule on money that ACL receives from a third party represents? Where do they stop deciding on what payments ACL receive from third parties represents? The hotel rent? The casino rent? Income from the exhibition hall? If they keep digging ACL could be ruled to owe otium thousands and thousands by the FL using your theory. We won't be any closer to a return home, in fact we'd be further away but I'm starting to get the impression that that would please you.

 

[Deleted member 5849]

The Football League have said sod all tbf.

That's kind of the problem!

 

[Grendel]

I'll ask you again. Did the FL say that MM & GR had to pay ACL £300k so otium could receive the right to play in the football league?

What authority do the FL have to rule on money that ACL receives from a third party represents? Where do they stop deciding on what payments ACL receive from third parties represents? The hotel rent? The casino rent? Income from the exhibition hall? If they keep digging ACL could be ruled to owe otium thousands and thousands by the FL using your theory. We won't be any closer to a return home, in fact we'd be further away but I'm starting to get the impression that that would please you.

The football league can determine what it likes. The truth is its not legally enforceable and sisu could just say fuck off we are paying nothing. They haven't and so it's perfectly fair for them to point out ACL have recovered earnings from elsewhere and the league can decide if they wish to consider this value or not.

ACL can't claim any money - they have zero entitlement to any.

 

[cloughie]

The football league can determine what it likes. The truth is its not legally enforceable and sisu could just say fuck off we are paying nothing. They haven't and so it's perfectly fair for them to point out ACL have recovered earnings from elsewhere and the league can decide if they wish to consider this value or not.

ACL can't claim any money - they have zero entitlement to any.

and by not paying it sisu have

zero entitlement to the golden share

 

[Danceswithhorses]

and by not paying it sisu have

zero entitlement to the golden share

If only it were that easy

 

[Nick]

I'll ask you again. Did the FL say that MM & GR had to pay ACL £300k so otium could receive the right to play in the football league?

What authority do the FL have to rule on money that ACL receives from a third party represents? Where do they stop deciding on what payments ACL receive from third parties represents? The hotel rent? The casino rent? Income from the exhibition hall? If they keep digging ACL could be ruled to owe otium thousands and thousands by the FL using your theory. We won't be any closer to a return home, in fact we'd be further away but I'm starting to get the impression that that would please you.

Well no, but if the fl think that what's already been paid is for exactly the same thing as what sisu are paying they could knock it down.

Surely as the fl set the condition they have authority to change the condition based on what they think? Have the fl done anything simple or theoretically???

If it's completely different they will pay the full amount so not sure what casino rent has to do with it as that would come under completely different wouldn't it?

Why would it please me not coming home?

 

[shmmeee]

Well no, but if the fl think that what's already been paid is for exactly the same thing as what sisu are paying they could knock it down.

Surely as the fl set the condition they have authority to change the condition based on what they think? Have the fl done anything simple or theoretically???

If it's completely different they will pay the full amount so not sure what casino rent has to do with it as that would come under completely different wouldn't it?

Why would it please me not coming home?

Fucking Football League.

It's nonsense us even discussing this. It's blatantly nonsense from Sisu, but they'd be stupid not to try it on and I fully expect the FL to rule in their favour. As with everything they do there's no clear rules or guidelines and they just make it up as they go along.

The whole thing is a farce.

The long and the short of it is Sisu need to show they can be trusted to get F&B. If they're at all serious about it dropping the legals is the least they can do. As has to keep being pointed out, it is them that need a deal after all.

 

[letsallsingtogether]

Correct but some seem to think leaving SMALL details out helps them in there defense of SISU....

and by not paying it sisu have

zero entitlement to the golden share

 

[Nick]

and by not paying it sisu have

zero entitlement to the golden share

Yes but in the eyes of the fl they have paid it?

 

[Nick]

Correct but some seem to think leaving SMALL details out helps them in there defense of SISU....

Who is defending them and where?

 

[martcov]

Yes but in the eyes of the fl they have paid it?

No. In the eyes of the Fl they have placed the money in a Ring fenced account. The fl. know it hasn't been paid to ACL. The fl. Now has to decide whether to move the goal posts in SISU's favour - and thus break their own word to ACL. If they do that, they will have to explain their decision or else lose face, or depending on what they agreed, or how they made an aggreement with ACL, face a possible claim from ACL ( I admit I don't know how watertight any agreement with ACL was ).

 

[Nick]

No. In the eyes of the Fl they have placed the money in a Ring fenced account. The fl. know it hasn't been paid to ACL. The fl. Now has to decide whether to move the goal posts in SISU's favour - and thus break their own word to ACL. If they do that, they will have to explain their decision or else lose face, or depending on what they agreed, or how they made an aggreement with ACL, face a possible claim from ACL ( I admit I don't know how watertight any agreement with ACL was ).

Yes that's what i mean, from sisus perspective it is paid so the fl need to decide which amount as it is all sat there waiting.

 

[skybluetony176]

Well no, but if the fl think that what's already been paid is for exactly the same thing as what sisu are paying they could knock it down.

Surely as the fl set the condition they have authority to change the condition based on what they think? Have the fl done anything simple or theoretically???

If it's completely different they will pay the full amount so not sure what casino rent has to do with it as that would come under completely different wouldn't it?

Why would it please me not coming home?

That's exactly my point Nick.

If the combined income from the hotel and casino was £590k would you be saying that the amount has already been paid and therefore sisu don't have to pay anything because that would mean ACL have been paid twice?

This is a private arrangement between two individuals and ACL. They don't work for sisu, to the best of anyone's knowledge they have no vested interest in sisu, they haven't had an involvement with the club in years and correct me if I'm wrong but when they were involved the club it comprised of CCFC Ltd and SBS & L, two companies that no longer exist so therefore are in no way the club. That very faint connection went when sisu liquidated one and put the other in administration with that company being well on the way to liquidation. So other than because ML said so, how are the two payments linked?

What I really don't get is why CCFC fans give a flying fcuk if ACL get paid twice? I want this paid because it's a very real barrier in stopping us returning to the Ricoh and that's all that matters. If it gets paid we can all move onto the next stumbling block but at least we'll be moving forward.

Why do you and other CCFC fans want anything but? It makes no sense.

 

[martcov]

Yes that's what i mean, from sisus perspective it is paid so the fl need to decide which amount as it is all sat there waiting.

I agree with you on SISU's perspective, but the sticking point is ACL's perspective that it hasn't been paid to them.

I think they could drop the payment as a prerequistit of negotiations though, as it is the league who are the problem until 07. August when they have their meeting and decide what to do in this case. Not SISU.

The legal action is another sticking point. On the one hand, I tend to say,"let SISU go for it". They lost 7:0 in the first leg, if they get leave of appeal, it will take a lot to overturn that damning judgement. On the other hand how can ACL deal frankly with SISU with an appeal going on?

Maybe they should meet in an informal manner now and look at the options for moving forwards. At least talk about official talks and start the ball rolling. Get the total "no go"s out of the way.

SISU may not even get leave of appeal in the end and at the latest we will have an indication of what's happening with the 590K on 07. August. Theoretically - based on the judgement - they should lose the appeal anyway.

So why wait when they can at least meet and start discussions. Time before the start of the season being the relevant factor.

 

[Nick]

That's exactly my point Nick.

If the combined income from the hotel and casino was £590k would you be saying that the amount has already been paid and therefore sisu don't have to pay anything because that would mean ACL have been paid twice?

This is a private arrangement between two individuals and ACL. They don't work for sisu, to the best of anyone's knowledge they have no vested interest in sisu, they haven't had an involvement with the club in years and correct me if I'm wrong but when they were involved the club it comprised of CCFC Ltd and SBS & L, two companies that no longer exist so therefore are in no way the club. That very faint connection went when sisu liquidated one and put the other in administration with that company being well on the way to liquidation. So other than because ML said so, how are the two payments linked?

What I really don't get is why CCFC fans give a flying fcuk if ACL get paid twice? I want this paid because it's a very real barrier in stopping us returning to the Ricoh and that's all that matters. If it gets paid we can all move onto the next stumbling block but at least we'll be moving forward.

Why do you and other CCFC fans want anything but? It makes no sense.

Well no, because that would be completely different wouldn't it as they aren't related to the club, whereas the others were guarantors for the CLUB weren't they? It is the same as if my mum for example was a guarantor on a car, if I didn't pay the payment she would have to as she signed that agreement but then that is paid, I don't have to pay it as well do I to the loan company as they had the money? It is down to my mum to then give me an arse kickin to give her the money!

Were the casino or hotel guarantors for the club too? If not then it is completely different isn't it?

I am not saying that the GR and MM money is the same thing, I fully expect SISU to have to pay the full 590 but why should they get paid twice? You are pretty much saying give ACL whatever they want to return us to the Ricoh but it isn't hard, if the money they have is the same as what the 590k is take that off and give them the difference, if it isn't then pay them it all.

I want the club to return on the best footing, by effectively saying we should do whatever ACL want to return moves us no further forward and back to the club having no choice but to sign up to bad agreements and we are in no better position than when we left. When we go back I want it to be done properly with what is best for the club and this whole mess having actually achieved something (even if it is a better rent deal for the CLUB etc).

 

[Nick]

I agree with you on SISU's perspective, but the sticking point is ACL's perspective that it hasn't been paid to them.

I think they could drop the payment as a prerequistit of negotiations though, as it is the league who are the problem until 07. August when they have their meeting and decide what to do in this case. Not SISU.

That's what I mean, surely ACL could just see it as that it is waiting on the FL and all of the money is sat there anyway with the FL.

 

[skybluetony176]

Yes that's what i mean, from sisus perspective it is paid so the fl need to decide which amount as it is all sat there waiting.

At this moment in time sisu's perspective doesn't come into it. It's ACL who have said that without the payment in full there is no return for the club. The FL needs to release the funds in full otherwise from ACL's perspective sisu have paid zilch and a barrier for the club remains in place.

It's as simple as that.

 

[shmmeee]

I still don't get how an agreement between two parties should impact on an agreement made between two other parties.

It's just Sisu trying it on, hilarious that so many buy it hook line and sinker like everything else that comes out the club. I fully expect the FL to do whatever Sisu tell them is right of course. Members club and all that.

 

[oldskyblue58]

If this all doesn't prove how inept the FL are then I do not know what will.

This £590k is entirely of their making.
They made the decision to impose the figure.
Clearly have not made clear or even understood the basis of the figure.
Decided to give the share August 2013 but delay payment of the £590k till May 2014 earliest.
Have not it would seem made clear the terms of the contract between themselves and Otium allowing different interpretations to be placed on it.
Have not been clear in explaining anything to the fans preferring to deflect with "go speak to the liquidator".
Have buried their heads in the sand hoping the whole thing goes away.
Deadlines for payment or decision repeatedly missed, two weeks from end of season, 31st May, the League AGM, the board meeting after the AGM etc.
Released statements that show clearly they do not understand what is going on.
Said they cant get involved in disputes between private parties then promptly do get involved by imposing conditions that have a direct effect on said private parties.
Hidden behind the "integrity of the competition but have shown precious little integrity themselves.
Have totally inappropriate slogan of real football real fans when you consider they have little or no interaction with the fans and refuse to answer fully any questions
Given the fans scant respect or protection, clearly placing little value on those fans - there is no football business without the fans!

What was the purpose of the decision that is now a potential blockage to a return? Why have they dithered and dallied potentially putting the football creditors rule under scrutiny and risk?

Clueless, inept, a blight on the game. The modern business of football has left these dinosaurs far behind and out of their depth, to the extent they have become compromised because they do not have the will or power to go up against any of their own members.

Little wonder the chants of "let down by the Football League!"

:slap:.......... breathe

 

[olderskyblue]

I still don't get how an agreement between two parties should impact on an agreement made between two other parties.

It's just Sisu trying it on, hilarious that so many buy it hook line and sinker like everything else that comes out the club. I fully expect the FL to do whatever Sisu tell them is right of course. Members club and all that.

Yes, and wait for the FL to announce "it was too late to do anything else, we had to ensure the fixtures are fulfilled"

 

[Jack Griffin]

Yeah OSB the FL are being played, again.

 

[shmmeee]

Yes, and wait for the FL to announce "it was too late to do anything else, we had to ensure the fixtures are fulfilled"

Of course. Let's not forget the story about the MM/GR money came out on May 31st. Here we are a month and a half later still not knowing if it had any impact.

It'll be at least 5 years at Sixfields before the FL get involved.

 

[shmmeee]

Yeah OSB the FL are being played, again.

Not being played. Just genuinely don't give a shit.

 

[martcov]

Of course. Let's not forget the story about the MM/GR money came out on May 31st. Here we are a month and a half later still not knowing if it had any impact.

It'll be at least 5 years at Sixfields before the FL get involved.

Strange that it came out just in time. SISU would have known about the guarantors existence long ago, and even Bennett's Afro's mates in the canteen knew about them paying some of the guarantee. Would be a major coincidence to find this information directly on the deadline.

There are websites that advise peolple how to get out of paying debts. One of the tips is leave everything to the deadline. Another is to start litigation against the creditor as it saps his energy and involves him defending himself. I know because I have had debtors who use these tactics.

In the end, they lose, but then comes the fun of trying to get the money. Then they become insolvent, bankrupt, or vanish ( into Liquidation if a company or to another city or country if they are private - or maybe a private bankruptcy and then change their name and start again ). Not unlike SISU.

 

[limoncello]

This thread has developed in a totally unpredictable manner. I'm pleasantly surprised that we've all been able to see through the dogma and shaken off our tribal prejudices. Let's take a moment to pat our own backs people, we deserve it.